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Posted: 10/20/2006 4:10:04 PM EDT
| Is there a special tool for these? In other words, how do you get the roll pin into the trigger guard without a hammer? Those little ears look fragile, and there's a little space between the guard and ears that could allow the ear to flex and break off. I got lucky on a previous build and tapped it in with no problem, but it took more force than I was comfortable with considering the consequences. |
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Start with chucking the roll pin up in a drill, and slightly tapering the leading edge with a small file. This will knock off all the end burs, and allow the pin to glide as you punch it into place. One the leading edge of the pin is beveled, insert/snap in the detent side of the trigger guard into place, then while backing up the bottom ear with a block (I have a urethane block just for this), start the lubed roll pin into the top ear/hole, then carefully drive it into position. Note: back up the bottom ear, and not the bottom side of the receiver flat section!!!!! Again, back up the bottom ear so that the force of the pin being driven if is transferred from the top ear, through the trigger guard, the bottom ear, and all backed up by the block. Also, if you find that you must remove the roll pin at a later date, again, back up the bottom ear so it is not just dangling and snaps off from the force. |
 Use the right to for the job. www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=191653 www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=192310 |
 There are more than "one" right tool. The taped jaws are an excellent way to install roll pins. You can see the method in the post tacked at the top. This supports the ears, and keeps from breaking them. People using punches... even fancy roll pin punches, have broken their ears off. Now - it wasnt the punches fault - they just didnt supprt them correctly. However, there is nothing "wrong" with using the taped jaws method. Personally - I have installed MANY... and I dont use roll pin punches. I use my brass punches, and that works just fine - the brass deforms so the roll pin wont. |
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www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=781&title=ROLL+PIN+HOLDERS I have had very good results using these . |
Roll pin punches used right does not deform the roll pin either. That's why they are specified roll pin punches (verses regular pin punches) because of their little dimple they have that keeps the punch centered on the pin (instead of being flat). I like to see the number of professional gunsmiths that use vice grips. The smith (30+ years exp) at my local dealer got mad when I told him that some people were using vice grips. |
Verses what ? You would be surprised at the level of control and precision with the tiny brass hammer and Roll Pin punches. Only takes about 45 seconds to drive it in that way. If you put a cloth over the back of the lower while you are doing it, you never have to worry about a scratch. |
Ohhh honestly...your gunsmith needs a valium. What does it matter??? Someone always has to get their panties in bunch over the stupidest little things. IT'S A ROLL PIN...if I want to use some double sided tape, stick one side to my butt and the other to the rollpin. Then jump up and land on the gun successfully pushing the rollpin in place that is perfectly fine. |
Mark me up as 1, I'll admit it, and I have a complete set of punches, roll pin, drifts, tapered, hollow base, etc..... and a sack full-o-hammers. The vice grip method rules, plus it is easier to tell right off if things aren't lining up right.
That pic of the constipated thinker in Mutt's avatar might be that 'smith.
Dude, that might work for you, but quit kiddin' yourself, that's just plain wrong. Didn't need the visual either, go stand in a corner and stay away from the tape. |
Thanks. I am quite aware of that. I wasnt saying that roll pin punches did deform the pins. My point was, there are other tools out there that work, and work well. Just because they make a specific tool, doesnt mean it is the ONLY *right* tool for the job.
So he is an idiot then. What was your point? Professional gunsmiths???? This is a community. We share information on our experiences, and what works, in the WECSOG.
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What stops the top ear from snapping off? As you tap the roll pin in? Well, it is supported, by the fact that the energy is transferred into the top ear, to the trigger guard, and then into the bottom ear, which should be properly supported. Or you can use the tape and jaw method, which handles the supprt issue perfectly.... even though Texanmutt cant figure that out. As to the roll pin - you can knock in from either side. |
I just use a brass punch like FALARAK does. I put a few layers of duct tape on the anvil side of my vise to keep from scarring the receiver, suport the bottom ear on teh taped anvil, and tap carefully on the roll pin with just the hammer (no punch) until I get it started really well, then I use the punch to put it the rest of the way in. Worked every time (all two of them). 
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Nothing to defend sport, I'm speaking from first hand experience, not from second hand advice given by a gunshop groupee. BTW, I make part of my living teaching 'smithing, and it is expanding into to AR-15 community. I have researched methods by many different Armorer's and factories, and it is usually simple but effective solutions like this one that save people a great deal of aggravation and money. Too many times you run into people that have never had an original thought and can only regergitate what they hear without going outside of the box to improve and expand their horizons. Climb out of the box man, there is no reason to be in there with your 'smith! |
Thanks FALARAK! Most ARs that I've seen have a small gap between the trigger guard and the ear of the receiver but the gap is so small it can be filled with tape. Are the brass punches really that much better for spring pins than the steel punches? Thanks again. |
I'd say roll pin punches are probably the best for roll pins - but I use the brass punches because they work, and that is what I have. And if you slip - they dont scratch the lower badly. |
I’ll agree the a hammer and punch method is not the only way. Engineer2001’s method is good as well and is close to the same way U-joints are installed. I would go one step further with it and tape a thin strip of brass or plastic over the vice jaw to add an extra layer of scratch protection (versus tape only). Now I will go into the reason why vice grips are a bad idea. Anyone who has a few years of experience in any mechanical field (such as automotive, industrial equipment, machining, etc) knows that vice grips are a last resort to remove striped or suborn fasteners that you intend to replace. Vice grips are not your primary tool to use for assembly or dissasembly of anything. When you put metal to metal with only tape between, the tape will give way and can lead to scratches on the parts , and will mushroom the end of roll pin. Seeing this done on an AR is not the first time I have seen the taped vicegrips damage car parts or other things that had nice finishes before being gouged by vice grips. I am not “blasting” this method for the hell of it, I am stating that this method is unprofessional and can lead to damage on your ARs. You act like I’m trying to be this know it all egotistical asshole to make myself feel better. I am using my experience to let people know what they might be facing if they do it this way. Some people have used this method without scratching the lower, others have not. You have a greater chance of putting a big gouge in the side of you lower by using this. I doubt you will see taped vicegrip's in the assembly rooms of most of the AR manufacturers.
Why is he an idiot? Cause he states things based on his 30 years experience of working on more guns than most people have seen in one place at a time. That somehow makes him an idiot according to you, as if all smiths must meet with your approval. You have to insult him because he has the knowledge to and experience to back up his work. Just because everyone in the neighborhood says the sky is red, how does that make it right ? This is my helpful experience to the ARFCOM community, in an effort to keep people from defacing a lower which they have spent their hard earned money on. There are many ways to skin a cat, but very few proper ways. |
Again, here you are. I explained my stance in detail based on my experience and all you can do is revert to personal attacks by calling me a gunsmith groupie and stating that I'm on my smiths nuts. I have only seen the guy 4 or 5 times and mentioned it to him in passing becuase i knew what he would say. The original thought comes from my years of experience of working on a lot mechanical, hydraulic, electro-mechanical and electrical equipment in various places on land and sea both here and the other side of the world. Me quoting the smith is to illustrate how a professional smith does things. This just shows how you cant make an intelligent argument and have start attacking people because "I teach smithing (supposedly) and I don't have to defend any jury rigging method i use" or claim that their avatar is a constipated smith. That sounds more like some one who is scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with a coherent though. Really, how much money are we talking about $20. Even less if you use a vice and brass punch. You will have a whole lot of aggravation if the vicegrip digs thru the tape and puts a deep gouge on your lower. So, lets have an intelligent debate over the methods of assembly instead of attacking those which seek to put something constructive into the discussion. |
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Since I ignored this thread the first time around, I'll throw my two cents in now... First, you need LOTS of different punches and hammers to work on guns. I have two different hammers that are ALWAYS on my bench. First, a little one I made, it's a 1/2" diameter steel head, two inches long with a 1/4" diameter steel handle Weighs Maybe 4 ounces. Works wonders on starting all kinds of pins. Fits in tight places. It's light enough that it does not damage things when you miss.  Not worth a shit for actually driving big pins though. The other hammer is a 1lb ball peen. This one will knock out taper pins and drives any pin. Of course there are other hammers for specific tasks, but these two are my main workhorses. Then punches. I have rollpin punches, but have also made my own brass starter punches. It's neat when you have a machine shop because you tend to make MANY task specific tools. Front sight pins are one of the most fun because they are so short. A simple hollow punch will hold/align/start the pin wonderfully. Then I switch to a flat ended brass punch. Only when the pine is near flush do I use a roll pin punch. Then to drive the pin below the surface I have even a different punch which is stubbier and stronger. |
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