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Posted: 9/8/2003 10:20:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 10:31:59 AM EDT by IANick]
I am building my first AR, and want to go th kit route. I am trying to decide between the Model 1 sales kit and the J&T kit.
J&T Kit
Model 1 Sales kit
I've heard some say that Model 1 uses cheap chinese parts, but don't know that they do or don't for sure.
If you have a reason to go one way or the other, please share it with me. Only question I have is. Do both companies assemble and headspace the upper?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:02:13 PM EDT
I have built two M&A (m-aparts.com) kits and am helping a friend build his JT kit. I would recommend either, except make sure you inventory your parts as soon as you receive them. One of my M&A kits was missing a spring. The JT kit was missing several springs and pins. Each vendor promptly shipped this missing parts but I wish they would get their Q/C in order. If you want a mid-length AR, then you are pretty much limited to M&A for a kit. The quality of both kits appear very good to me. Good shooters! GL Bugs66
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:45:15 PM EDT
anyone have comments on the DPMS kits?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:39:38 PM EDT
My JT upper is fantastic - I finaly decided they were the way to go to complete my rifle (BM assmebled lower + a JT 20" A2 upper) and have been happy with everything I got so far!
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:48:10 PM EDT
I must have gotten Buggs' springs... My J&T kit had an extra detent spring. Hey, it happens, springs stick together. J&T uppers come fully assembled, ready to mount and shoot.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 3:04:02 PM EDT
I think I'm gonna go with the Model 1 Sales, for the simple fact that it comes with a chrome lined barrel. What is the difference between getting it chambered in 5.56 or .223?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 4:23:00 PM EDT
Was that a chromed barrel or a chrome-moly barrel? I think they offer chrome but I don't believe it's standard.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 4:29:35 PM EDT
Go with the 5.56 chamber. You will be able to shoot any comercially loaded .223 ammo in it as well as 5.56 spec (surplus) ammo in it. The 5.56 can be loaded hotter than the .223. However there is some debate over wether or not you should shoot the 5.56 in a .223 chamber. Many people never have a problem, but I figure better safe than sorry. For no extra money why take the chance. Go 5.56 and you will never have to worry. Hershey
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 5:23:55 PM EDT
I think they only offer Chrome moly or Stainless. They may offer a chrome lined barrel but you'll have to call and talk to them because its not listed on their site. If you do want the benifits of chrome lined you can always get a stainless barrel and then paint it. I just put together a Model 1 kit and except for the cheap handguards I'm very happy with it. I bought their lightweight 16" barrel with my kit and it is very light. Entire rifle unloaded with an ARMS #40 rear sight is 5.6 lbs total. Pretty darn light.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:29:01 PM EDT
Woops, looks like I mistook a chrome moly barrel for a chrome lined barrel. Oh well, probably still go with Model 1 and put the $50 savings into magazines.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:54:16 AM EDT
I don't know about the "Cheap Chinese Parts" from Model 1. The buffer that came with my E2 kit was in the original USGI wapper with NSN on it!
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:02:28 AM EDT
Yeah...I agree. I can fully recommend the Kit from Model 1. I'm sure the JT kit and the M&A kits are just as nice but I can't imagine them being $50 - $85 more. I took that extra money I saved and put it toward a case of ammo which I just received from ammoman yesterday. Like I said the only issue I had with the Model 1 kit is the front handguards seemed alittle cheap. They were completely serviceable though. The only other issue I had was with the selector detent pin. It was too large for my lower receiver. I used a drill and some 500 grit sandpaper and problem was solved in about 3 minutes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 11:05:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 11:27:33 AM EDT by walther_gsp]
I just ordered my lower on Saturday. I'm going with a Model 1 Sales kit as well. I'm just having a hard time trying to decide between the 16 and 20 inch A3. What is the quality like on the free float handguards from Model 1 and how difficut is it to mount a bipod to one?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:53:45 PM EDT
Big sigh. Instead of lurking on ARFCOM yesterday, I actually worked. So, I missed this thread until after I ordered my J&T upper. Model 1 has exactly what I wanted for the price that I wanted to spend. For whatever reason, I wanted the 20" SS bbl on my new birthday present. But, in the interest of getting my rifle ready for 9/11 (an annual day of shooting for me) and saving a little money, I opted for the J&T 20" HBAR. But, guess what, I'm getting my 2nd rifle for my birthday in 2 years. Sounds like a tradition to me! Hey, mods, could ya put a link to Model 1 on the Industry page? Or, do they have to pay for that. If so, let me know. I'll send them a link to this discussion...
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:35:13 AM EDT
I got the Model 1 A3 20" with the Alum free float... Very Nice! I got the fluted tube but the also offer a knurled. A3 20"HBAR with float tube.. I am a happy man $443shipped for the kit $89shipped for Mega lower $25 FFL transfer (blood sucking bastards) $40 Cheap optics and rings from CDNN ~~ $597 Total
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 7:30:22 AM EDT
Do all kits come assembled and headspaced? If not, which ones are? I've built several AKs but this will be my first AR. I already have a stripped lower on the way. Now I'm just trying to decide on who's kit to use. I have Go/No-Go gauges in 7.62x39 and .308 but not in 5.56, so I'ld like to get a kit that is already done, for my first build.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 8:57:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tivoli410: anyone have comments on the DPMS kits?
View Quote
I have two of the DPMS kits... no complaints here!
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 8:59:17 AM EDT
I've build 2 Model 1 kits and have been happy with both but truth be know all of the companies get their parts from the same place. I know that most of the companies are in IL. so I'd bet they have a wholesaler that supplies all of them. Model 1 doesn't offer a chrome lined bbl, but you can get stainless for $50 more or stainless/fluted(the option I got) for $100 more. I wanted to buile an AR that was as rust proof/all weather as I could get so I got the stainless/fluted bbl. and a chrome bolt/carrier as well. Plus I liked the green stock kit. Seems like everyone and his grand mother has a black stock, I wanted something different. Talk at ya' later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/13/2003 6:55:04 AM EDT
I have built around 150 kit rifles for others and from every manufacturer and distributor, one thing I do is check every part and do an inventory before assembly and head space the upper. Yes they say it is head spaced, but by whom? Never ever fire a kit or load a live round into a rifle until the head space is checked is my motto, extreme perhaps but have never had one fail. It also helps to clean the rifle and oil it prior to shooting it so it will function properly. When assembling the rifle I use iosso gun oil to lubricate the parts. this was a mandatory act in third echelon maintenance at Camp Jejune.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 1:22:46 PM EDT
i have searched for kits and i like model 1 the best they have good prices too
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:35:12 AM EDT
I've gotten 2 Model 1 kits...there was an issue with the second one that Model 1 took care of in a fair and timely manner. Overall, I have no complaints; both rifles function reliably and so far, no issues with either of them past the one mentioned above. The CAR handguards they use are indentical to the ones that came on a buddy of mines RRA CAR upper. The float tube is fine in terms of quality, but I think you have to tell them beforehand that you want the stud installed, or do it yourself...mine didnt' come with the stud, and I didnt' even think about it at the time. I wasn't missing any parts with either kit, but I did have to cut a couple of coils off the fron detent spring...certainly no big deal there.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:51:16 AM EDT
Well after all this, I think I'm gonna go with the Olympic Arms kit. [URL=http://www.olyarms.com/specials.html]Olympic Arms Kit[/URL] They say they test fire their kits and Model 1 does not say that. That and I am more familiar with Olympic Arms products than Model 1, which gives me more confidence in the product I'm buying. Thanks for all the help, I think I'm gonna order it this week!
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:36:20 PM EDT
I got Oly lower parts and an upper from an Oly distributor. The parts worked well in my Stinger lower and the upper shoots quite well. The distributor gave me a far better price than I could have got from the Oly website when you consider the upgrades I got and the upper had a 416 SS barrel. You might want to look around for an Oly distributor in your area.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:53:35 PM EDT
Will the Chrome moly work for massive amounts of fire ie: plinking or do i need a crhome "lined" barrel Also Would anyone think the varmint uppers from Model 1 are any accurate?
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 10:03:41 PM EDT
Who makes a good book for building, reparing, specs and so forth for an AR-15. thick details and pics mmmmmm... pictures are good.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:09:14 AM EDT
I have a question- I just looked at the Model 1 PDF catalog and I see that they offer a 5.5" flash hider for barrels. Can I use these particular flash hiders for post ban rifles? I understand I can probably not install one myself, but if I ordered a barrel with this attached, would it be legal? thanks in advance :)
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 11:20:39 AM EDT
As long as the overall length of the barrels is 16" long and the flash hider is permanently attached than yes it is legal on post ban.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 11:36:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ramjet308 Who makes a good book for building, reparing, specs and so forth for an AR-15. thick details and pics mmmmmm... pictures are good. All kinds of info http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 5:33:04 AM EDT
I would almost bet money that Model 1, M&A and JT all buy their parts from the same wholesaler. I'd go with Model 1 for the simple reason that they are a few bucks cheaper. I've built 2 of their kits and never had any problem with either. If you like in a state where rust is a factor then I'd suggest a stainless(and fluted to save weight) bbl. and a chrome bolt/carrier assy. this will give you some peace of mind as far as rust goes. Also, unless you're going to shoot compatition with heavy bullets a 1:9 twist would be fine, no need to go with the 1:8. Just my 2 cents, talk to ya' later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 12:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 12:45:46 PM EDT by watertower]
Originally Posted By Round2: As long as the overall length of the barrels is 16" long and the flash hider is permanently attached than yes it is legal on post ban.
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Flash hiders are not legal on postban guns, whether they are permanently attached or not. Muzzle brakes are legal on postban guns. There are technicalities though, which somebody else would have to explain. I'm not an expert in the legal stuff, but I do know that you are not supposed to use flash hiders/suppressors on post ban guns. Scott Wanted to add my vote for J&T.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 7:15:52 AM EDT
I have a Model 1 upper on a RRA lower no problems only 200 rounds throught it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:51:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bugs66: I have built two M&A (m-aparts.com) kits and am helping a friend build his JT kit. I would recommend either, except make sure you inventory your parts as soon as you receive them. One of my M&A kits was missing a spring. The JT kit was missing several springs and pins. Each vendor promptly shipped this missing parts but I wish they would get their Q/C in order. If you want a mid-length AR, then you are pretty much limited to M&A for a kit. The quality of both kits appear very good to me. Good shooters! GL Bugs66
View Quote
Definitely inventory, my M&A kit was missing buffer spring and one small spring.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:44:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 8:33:00 AM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By maxxx93: Do all kits come assembled and headspaced?
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I called and talked to the guys at both Model1sales and M&A, because I was looking for complete upper to finish my DCM service rifle build. They both said, yes they are headspaced. I ended not buying one of theirs, I found a complete Armalite DCM upper in prime condition, and bought that as it was a better price and I wasn't sure about the M&A and Model1sales NM rear sights I think they only had 1/2 MOA and I wanted 1/4 MOA, any way Model1sales was at the same gunshow and my friend Bill bought a varmint kit from them with all the whistles and bell (he dropped about $800) and broke in the Barrel last weekend. It's not my cup of tea (Bipod, 14X scope, SS bull barrel etc) but it shot without problems, and appeared to be shooting .5 to 1 MOA with any trouble.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:55:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 8:28:54 AM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By JosephR: I have a question- I just looked at the Model 1 PDF catalog and I see that they offer a 5.5" flash hider for barrels.
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NO! it is a felony to put both a flash hider and/or threaded muzzle AND a pistol grip (you can have ony one banned feature)on a POSTBAN semiautomatic rifle with detachable magazine. This part of the Assault Weapons Ban which is set to expire on September 2004. You have some options, though. A: have a muzzle brake threaded and pinned on (loud and enhaces flash,obnoxious) B: get one of KKFs "faux" flash hiders which have the "look" but are legal,threaded and pinned on. [url]http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/16550.htm[/url] C:wait until the AWB dies a lonely death on September 2004. FOR your future reference: §922(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon. (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under federal law on the date of enactment of this subsection (09-13-94) §921(a)(30) The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescopic stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (v) a grenade launcher;
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:56:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 8:30:27 AM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By Round2: As long as the overall length of the barrels is 16" long and the flash hider is permanently attached than yes it is legal on post ban.
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THIS IS INCORRECT AND ILLEGAL. you cannot have more than one banned feature. If you have a pistol grip, you cannot have a flash hider/threaded muzzle. If the BATF catches you, you may be charged with a felony. All it takes is for you to have your rifle temporarily confiscated by LE for any reason, e.g. your home is robbed, you use it in self defense, some one at the range complains, etc. Not worth the risk In my opinion. Don't take anything anyone tells you as law, research it yourself. If you are in violation, it is you, not them who will suffer. Check the "legal" section of this board, it is a good reference. You can also reference the Laws pertaining to the Ban on [url]http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/semi.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 10:20:57 AM EDT
Model 1 says all parts are made in the U.S.A., no Chinese parts. Just put in an order with Model1 since they seemed to have the only lightweight carbine kit without a permanent brake. Flash hiders are permanently attached to PRE-BAN barrels, because if they weren't permanent, you could remove them and have an SBR.... not good.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 12:55:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 4:59:25 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By Suburban: Flash hiders are permanently attached to PRE-BAN barrels, because if they weren't permanent, you could remove them and have an SBR.... not good.
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I don't think that's right. I know several people who have 11.5" prebans with the 4 1/2 inch flash hider, it was quite common pre 1994. As long as the rifle is a preban, and the overall length is 16" it is legal. If you remove the flash hider on this barrel however, it would then be an SBR and illegal without BATF documentation. The laws say nothing about having to permanently affix a muzzle device on a preban, as long as the overall barrel length is 16" or longer. On a postban, your overall length would have to be 16" with muzzle device permanently affixed if actual barrel length was less than 16".
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:16:56 PM EDT
I love my JT 20" standard on a RR lower,works great,looks great. No problems whatsoever. I looked into both before building and just had a better feel for the product/parts descriptions from JT, dunno why, but I'm gald that I did.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 9:40:09 AM EDT
I ended up going with an RRA lower and Olympic Arms kit. I went with Olympic becuase they were the only ones that said their uppers were head-spaced and test fired. It has about 50 rounds through it and no problems yet. Would have more, but Deer season started(YAY!! 8 pointer) The RRA and Oly fit together like they were made to. Couldn't have worked out better, in color and fit. And the directions on this site are excellent, couldn't have done it without. I'll post a pic when I figure out how to. Nick
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 2:03:25 PM EDT
_DR posted
I don't think that's right. I know several people who have 11.5" prebans with the 4 1/2 inch flash hider, it was quite common pre 1994. As long as the rifle is a preban, and the overall length is 16" it is legal. If you remove the flash hider on this barrel however, it would then be an SBR and illegal without BATF documentation. The laws say nothing about having to permanently affix a muzzle device on a preban, as long as the overall barrel length is 16" or longer. On a postban, your overall length would have to be 16" with muzzle device permanently affixed if actual barrel length was less than 16".
View Quote
Sorry, but you're wrong here. The permanent length has to be 16" or longer, or it has to be registered as a SBR, or on a class 3 weapon. If the flash-hider can be removed, resulting in a length less than 16", it is illegal. Check the posts and you'll see all the guys with preban 14.5" M4 barrels have a permanently attached flash suppressors. Not only that, they are Phantoms, Kurts A3, or some other suppressor that is 1.5" long. The standard A2 is too short and will leave you under 16" The same rationale applies to post-ban barrels and threaded muzzles. Lots of post ban barrels have threaded muzzles, but they are covered by [b]permanently[/b] mounted muzzle brakes or other devices (not flash hiders). The key is [b]permanent[/b]. The ATF doesn't want you to readily unscrew that 5.5" flash suppressor off of your preban and instantly have an 11.5" barrel. You don't want them to do it either! Remember their MOA. If they can abuse your rifle into an illegal configuration, then you're screwed. If you have a couple of M16 parts laying around and they can make it fire more than one shot per press of the trigger, then you're screwed. If they can unscrew that FS or brake without destroying the barrel, you're screwed.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 5:37:12 PM EDT
long-rifle-tactical: About the headspacing, of those appx 150 kits, how many you built where the head space was dangerously out of spec? My J&T carbine kit has the 16" chrome moly barrel (Shaw). The upper came fully assembled. All parts, incl lower parts kit, were top drawer. No complaints. In over 1000 rnds not a single malfunction of any sort. Went bang! every time, good accuracy. I am happy with it and will certainly purchase again from them.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 9:52:48 PM EDT
I have the model 1 sales 16 inch lightweight with a mega lower. Everything is satisfaction without any problems after 600 rounds. Had a disappointing experience with model 1 about the trigger. It had the sand left from sand blasting baked on. I sent it back and requested a replacement and reimbursment for the shipping. They sent me an email saying that their was nothing wrong with it but they replaced it anyways, but failed to address or respond to the request for reimbursment. I know its about a dollar for shipping, but its the point. Well lets think about this, it functioned fine, but for $425 I expect the parts to be to an obvious industry standard. When i emailed them back about the reimbursement and the factory standard statment, I never heard back from them. But all in all very happy with my purchase, just figure their lower parts kits have poor quality control.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:46:44 AM EDT
my model one kit is top notch and i highly recommend it. why spend more money on dpms when the results will be the same, spend it on accesories.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:01:01 AM EDT
Hey NavySeal6, come on over to SOCNET and hang out with all your old buddies from the Teams. Im sure they would love to catch up with what youve been keeping youself busy doing lately.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:16:47 PM EDT
Original post by A_free_man: "My J&T carbine kit has the 16" chrome moly barrel (Shaw)." I called Model 1 last week and asked who made their barrels. The guy I talked to told me they came from a company named Shaw. He also told me that there were several lesser known companies making AR parts. He wasn't aware of any one company that manufactured the entire rifle. Everybody buys from the same people. The only differences might be the level of TLC applied by the kit builder. Also companies like RRA and Oly probably forge and machine their own receivers.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 3:50:44 AM EDT
I am up to 203 kits as of today; UPS just delivered 2 more last night. Total so far is 7 were out of spec, I highly recommend that anyone parting together a weapon of any kind or assembling a kit to check the chamber and head spacing with headspace gauges, not snap caps etc. I am not saying that every kit is bad, but as a rule of thumb I check the head space every time and the firing pin protrusion with a gauge. If you change the bolt, bolt carrier group or firing pin on an AR-15 check with the appropriate gauges to ensure they are in spec.
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