Im interested in this as well Vic! Doesn't make sense!

Thanks

Gentlemen, if you want an IR pistol laser, please let LaserMax know. I think a Class I version of their Uni-IR would sell like hotcakes.

LaserMax said they would consider it if there was enough demand. If you're interested, chime in:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=266&t=200607

chimed

Everything I have ever read regarding the legality of such devices pertain ONLY TO MANUFACTURERS, not to non-manufacturer individuals.  
Manufacturer, as defined by the FDA:  Manufacturer means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, assembling, or importing electronic products.
definition of manufacturer

This is an interesting read, particularly the subsection regarding exemptions.  The exemptions subsection leads me to believe that an exempted IR laser that has been sold to those outside the coverage of the exemption would be a violation of the exemption by the party covered in the exemption, NOT the individual purchasing it.  Please, if someone finds any literature in the Code of Federal Regulations stating the contrary I would love to read it.  These products have all been granted exemptions which are plainly visible on the exterior of the product.  The FDA may not be a fan of these getting out but as far as I can tell there is promulgated, and therefore enforceable, regulation that prevents their ownership by parties not explicitly described in the exemption.

My initial inquiry from December:

Ms. (FDA rep),
Hello, I would like to inquire about the subject of infrared lasers and their sale to private citizens (persons not affiliated with military or law enforcement agencies) prior to making a purchase so that I may insure that I will NOT be acting in contravention with any Federal laws and/or regulations.  I have combed through Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations regarding laser devices but cannot find any black and white answer to my question, so I was hoping that you could clarify the matter for me.
My inquiry pertains specifically to infrared laser aiming devices such as those that were manufactured by US companies such as NVS (Night Vision Systems), NVEC (Night Vision Equipment Company), Insight Technologies, and LDI (Laser Devices Incorporated).  Specific units manufactured by these companies include the Insight AN/PEQ-2, Insight AN/PAQ-4, LDI DBAL-A^2, NVS ATILLA-200, NVS VITAL-2, and NVS GCP-2 laser aiming devices.  The aforementioned devices range from 0.5 mW to 175 mW in power output and all use diodes whose output wavelength is above 800 nm.  As mentioned above, the devices in question are not imported but are/were manufactured in the United States of America.  The examples of these devices that I have seen bear a plate stating that “This electronic product has been exempted from FDA radiation safety performance standards prescribed in the Code of Federal Regulations Title 21, etc.”
My questions are as follows (all questions below are assuming that said devices are not stolen property and such scenarios are not acting in contravention with state and local laws and regulations):
1.       Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for the manufacturer of the aforementioned products to sell such products (bearing the exemption label described above), brand new, to private citizens (persons not affiliated with military or law enforcement agencies)?
The FDA does not
2.      Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for another person or entity (not the original manufacturer of aforementioned products) to sell such products (bearing the exemption label described above), in a used condition, to private citizens (persons not affiliated with military or law enforcement agencies)?


3.      Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for private citizens (persons not affiliated with military or law enforcement agencies) to purchase such products as those listed above (bearing the exemption label described above) from a person or entity (other than the manufacturer of aforementioned devices) such as a DRMO (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office) or other company?

4.      Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for private citizens (persons not affiliated with military or law enforcement agencies) to own such products as those listed above (bearing the exemption label described above)?

5.      Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for private citizens to purchase an infrared laser (a laser with a wavelength of 800 nm or greater) whose maximum power output is less than 5 mW from a person or entity that is NOT the original manufacturer of the device?

6.      Is it unlawful or in contravention with federal regulations for private citizens to own an infrared laser (a laser with a wavelength of 800 nm or greater) whose maximum power output is less than 5 mW?

I thank you for taking the time to read through my inquiry and would be very much appreciative if you could provide answers to my questions.  If I have sent this to the wrong person, I would very much appreciate you indicating who would be best to answer these questions for me.  If you would prefer I submit this request physically through the mail, I would be happy to do so and also provide an extra stamp for your reply letter so that there would be zero cost incurred by you or your employer.  Thank you very much for your time, and I wish you and yours a happy holiday season!
Very respectfully,
(my name)


First response:
Dear (my name):

Thank you for your inquiry below.  Let me provide you with the information on how the FDA regulates lasers.

Laser sights are subject to the provisions of 21 CFR 1040.1 1(b), Surveying, leveling and alignment laser products. This section limits this type of laser product to Class IIIa and a maximum output of 5mW. If they exceed the 5 mw limit they are required to comply with all applicable Class IIIb requirements which include an emission indicator, key switch, remote interlock connector, specific labeling and other features. Laser sights in the visible spectrum are limited to IIIa. If the manufacturer wants to power them above IIIa, they need to get a variance. IR lasers as surveying, leveling and alignment lasers are limited to Class I. To be powered above Class I as a laser sight, the manufacturer needs a variance.

Class IIIb aiming devices cannot be legally sold in the U.S. without a variance from the applicable requirements of 21 CFR1040.10 and 1040.11 having been issued by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health for such devices. It is our policy to restrict the sale of Class IIIb aiming devices only to the military, government and law enforcement agencies by purchase order for the procuring company.

An application for a variance may be made following the guidance found in 21 CFR1010.4 (b). A complete laser product report using the FDA's "Guide for Preparing Product Reports for Lasers..." must also be submitted.

CDRH issues to certain manufacturers, a variance from certain requirements of 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11. The basis for approval of the variances is found in 21 CFR 1010.4(a). These variances apply to specific products and they expire and must be renewed. The provisions under which these variances are granted are specific; in certain cases they restrict sales to government and law enforcement agencies only, under a direct purchase order and under certain procurement procedures, as well as other conditions. Certain Class IIIb infrared laser gun sights and illuminators are restricted by variance for sale in the United States to Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies only, and may not be sold to individuals. These products are intended for use only by agencies with safety training and property custody programs. Sales to individuals, no matter how well vetted, would effectively reverse the intent of these variances based on custody restrictions alone, creating secondary markets for these devices.

The regulations apply to manufacturers of laser products, not private citizens. I have recently reviewed all of FDA's active gun sight variances and we would not amend any variance issued to current variance holders to allow sales to private (non-government) firms or to individuals.

Additional information concerning compliance of laser products may be found on our web site at
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhealth/products/lasers.html

The Center for Devices and radiological Health considers lasers used for pointing out objects to be "surveying, leveling, and alignment laser products because they are within the definition in 21 CFR 1040.10(b)(39):

"(39) Surveying, leveling, or alignment laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended or promoted for one or more of the following uses:

     (i) Determining and delineating the form, extent, or position of a point, body, or area by taking angular measurement.

     (ii) Positioning or adjusting parts in proper relation to one another.

     (iii) Defining a plane, level, elevation, or straight line."

The Federal Regulations, in 21 CFR 1040.11(b)(2), limit surveying, leveling, and alignment laser products to Class IIIa. i.e., 5 milliwatts in the visible spectrum:

"(b) Surveying, leveling, and alignment laser products. Each surveying, leveling. or alignment laser product shall comply with all of the applicable requirements of § 1040.10 for a Class I, IIa, II or IIIa laser product and shall not permit human access to laser radiation in excess of the accessible emission limits of Class IIIa."

In addition, laser products imported into the United States are required to comply with the standards in 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11, and be certified and reported by their manufacturers. We are aware that laser products that fail to comply with Federal requirements are being promoted over the Internet. We are working to block this illegal commerce.

Several of the states have a registration requirement for Class IIIb laser products and their users. Furthermore, the American National Standard for the Safe Use of Lasers, ANSI Z136.1 specifies stringent control measures for the safe use of Class IIIb lasers. Class IIIb lasers are considered to be severe eye hazards and should not be casually used.

Concerning light emitting diodes, although LED are radiation-emitting they are not subject to the laser product performance standard nor are they subject to Product reports or Annual reports.  On the FDA website (here: http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/default.htm ) we have a Frequently Asked Questions document (here: http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/ElectronicProductRadiationControlProgram/GettingaProducttoMarket/default.htm#6 ) that provides your response as follows:

Q31) Are LEDs or IPLs subject to the laser regulations and reporting?
A) Neither Light Emitting Diodes (LEDs) nor Intense Pulsed Light sources (IPLs) meet the definition of a laser, namely:

21 CFR 1040.10(b)(19) Laser means any device that can be made to produce or amplify electromagnetic radiation at wavelengths greater than 250 nm but less than or equal to 13,000 nm or, after August 20, 1986, at wavelengths equal to or greater than 180 nm but less than or equal to 1.0*106nm primarily by the process of controlled stimulated emission.

Since they do not meet the definition of a laser as the source of the light (and assuming the products do not otherwise incorporate a laser), they are not subject to the laser standard. There is no existing FDA performance standard for Light emitting diodes or Intense Pulsed Light products. They are not subject to Product or Annual reports under 21 CFR 1002. However, as they are radiation-emitting products, the manufacturers of these products would still be subject to the general requirements in Title 21 CFR 1000 through 1005, specifically, accidental radiation occurrence notifications and notifications of defect, 21 CFR 1003 & 1004.


My response to this:
Ms. (FDA rep),
Thank you for your response from last December regarding legality issues with infrared lasers.  Forgive me but I still have some confusion regarding a couple aspects of your response with respect to my questions.  All of my questions below pertain to laser products that do have approved variances for DOD/government and/or law enforcement uses as printed on their outer casing.  This caution label reads:  “This electronic product has been exempted from FDA radiation safety performance standards prescribed in the Code of Federal Regulations Title 21, etc.”  The questions also regard only those units that have been legally and properly de-miled so that they are no longer listed as government property.  My questions are listed below.
1.      Regarding the section of your response highlighted in blue below (The regulations apply to manufacturers of laser products, not private citizens):
a.       From this part of your response I understand that the manufacturers are only allowed to sell class IIIb laser products with approved variances, and only to those entities that are included in that variance.  Since, however, these regulations do not apply to private citizens, would it be unlawful for a private entity (NOT the manufacturer of the laser) to sell said product to another private entity.
2.      Regarding the section of your response highlighted in red below (Class IIIb aiming devices cannot be legally sold in the U.S. without a variance from the applicable requirements of 21 CFR1040.10 and 1040.11 having been issued by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health for such devices):
a.       Given that the product has an approved variance as indicated on its casing, and has been legally removed from the government inventory by the proper de-mil process, is it unlawful for a private entity (NOT the manufacturer of the laser) to sell said laser product to another private entity even though the purchaser was not the entity for whom the variance was originally approved for.
3.      Regarding the section of your response highlighted in green below (It is our policy to restrict the sale of Class IIIb aiming devices only to the military, government and law enforcement agencies by purchase order for the procuring company).
a.       My question here is solely regarding the wording, “our policy.”  Is this policy explicitly reflective of any specific statute or reflective of a specific regulation currently promulgated by the FDA?  If this is an enforceable policy, please point me in the direction of the statute or regulation that allows its enforcement.
I appreciate your last response as it answered the vast majority of the questions I posed.  I would very much appreciate your clarification of the aforementioned questions.  Thank you very much for your time.
           Sincerely
           -(my name)

Response I received 5 min ago after third email:
Dear (my name):

I am unable to assist you further in this matter.  I recommend you send any future inquires to the DSMICA address at [email protected].

LOL basically Ms. FDA doesnt want to come out and say you can legally own it.

Yep that is the same conclusion I came to.

fordkicksass did you ever send a letter to who they redirected you to?

I would be very interested in reading their response.

I probably will at some point but I'm sick of wading through knee deep bullshit provided to me by people whose salaries I am helping to pay.  Unbelievably aggravating.  They do not wish to provide concrete answers, would be way too straightforward of a move.

Absolute bullshit. The FDA are a bunch of dickheads when it comes to lasers. Apparently they have both the time and money to browse random laser forums and arrest people selling homemade lasers over 5mW (it's happened).

How hard would it be to let people just buy the lasers? How many people are going to spend hundreds of dollars on an IR laser and then blind someone with it? It's not like the laws work anyway-the assholes over at Wickedlasers sold thousands of those shitty "arctic" lasers to the USA, and I bet some retard actually did blind someone with those.

My main concern on the IR lasers would be the airsofters using them (and yes, some do).  Of course, many of them buy the $400 China specials and bypass the FDA altogether.  Many of those do not include a low power mode, so the irony is the FDA restrictions are probably making is MORE dangerous for the airsofters.



Still, I haven't heard the airsofters are getting blinded.

I suppose that could happen, but as you said I have not heard of such an incident. Plus, I believe that in places where airsoft is more popular than in the USA (e.g. the UK) and lasers are not similarly regulated, they still don't have any eye accidents.


Average Joe is not going to go out and buy an IR laser and point it at his friends. The overlap of people who buy IR lasers and people who don't know how to use them is (and will probably always be) very small.

"Recover"?

Любые предметы, не утвержденных СССР будет конфисковано без возврата.

where does it say possession is illegal? theyre just going to say fuck you and kick in your door and confiscate this item? im sorry but they arent all stolen government property. there have been plenty of LEOs that purchased them through their dept's and then ended up selling them.


if you really dont want anyone to have them, then make it illegal to own.

Greetings. I asked Striker to post that message regarding our effort to recover military laser products. I would like to extend the invitation to contact me for any professional reason. I work for the Government, which serves the people so if you have any questions about exports, controlled technology or whatever I'll try my best to answer. With that said, I'd like to address some of the beliefs I've read on this forum and others.

NapeStickstoKids brings up a good point. Where in the law does it state that possession of the IR lasers are illegal? As far as I know, there is no law that makes simple possession illegal. NapeSticks goes on to argue that if the Government doesn't want civilians to own them that they should simply make simple possession illegal. Why is it not illegal to be in the US illegally? (the law does not make being in the U.S. without status illegal but makes entering the country via a port of entry without valid documentation illegal). In a way, the Government does make the possession of military lasers illegal but in a roundabout way which we'll get to in a bit.

The fact of the matter is that the Legislature creates "Acts" like the Clean Water Act or the Arms Export Control Act and pass it on to the Executive Branch to create the regulations to enforce the acts. The FDA (part of the Executive Branch of Government) was tasked to create laser safety regulations which they have in 21 CFR 1040.10/11. People often ask why the FDA controls lasers at all. I am not privy to the decisions of those responsible for creating the laws but working in a national security unit I have a good sense of why the Government makes the choices it makes in regards to controlling products.

In my opinion, the decision to control lasers was made by evaluating the costs and benefits. I'm sure the analysis resembled something like this:

COST  

Foreign adversaries get a hold of the items and reverse engineer them or use them against our own troops=The critical U.S. Military battlefield advantage at night is compromised.
A person ignorant of laser safety can seriously and permanent harms himself or others.
A criminal knowledgeable in laser safety uses the laser to intentially cause bodily harm or destruction, especially with invisible lasers.

BENEFIT

Those who want to impress friends can get one.
Those who want to take photos of one next to guns and knives can get one.
Those who like to play dress up can get one.
Those who want to call in airstrikes when hunting or do night surveillance of

their neighbors can get one.
Those who think owning a laser is cool (for any of the reasons above) can get one.

Obviously many of the benefits were said tongue-in-cheek but to be honest I can't think of a legitimate need for military lasers that couldn't be accomplished using some other type of technology. Looking at the costs the choice was clear that certain laser technologies needed to be restricted. Every day I see an incredible act of stupidity and fear that the collective intelligence of this nation is going downhill. I would personally be scared if military lasers were available to all.

A common argument is that guns are equally if not more dangerous and they're not restricted. True. However, a gun is a necessary tool in self defense. How else would one defend oneself against a criminal with guns? A laser is impractical for self defense and without any other valid use should not be a guaranteed freedom to possess.

I've also heard the argument that perhaps the lasers can be sold to civilians that receive training or certification to properly use them. I would argue that military lasers would still get out due to loss, theft, or estate sales after a death.

Switching gears, earlier I mentioned that U.S. law does make posessing lasers illegal, in a roundabout way. Instead of passing a law to make possession illegal, the FDA decided that they didn't need to because if they restricted who they were sold to, civilians wouldn't be able to get them anyways. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and military lasers enter the civilian market regardless through theft,fraud and negligence. Fortunately, military lasers entering commerce through fraud and negligence is low. As I stated above in the previous post, the only way to purchase a military laser legitimately is through a direct purchase from a purchasing officer of a Government agency. Individual law enforcement and military members cannot purchase one. Knowing that, lets go through all the possiblities for a civilian to acquire a military laser.

Concievably, a law enforcement entity could disregard their protocols and their signed contract with the resellers barring them from reselling the lasers and sell them to the public. However, as a member of the second largest investigative agency in the country I can tell you that I don't know of any offices that have actually purchased any military lasers for LE use. I spoke with B.E. Meyers, the manufacturer of IZLID'S and they told me that the number of LE purchases are very, very few with over 99% of the sales going to the DOD. The GLARE MOUT, which is a popular item isn't even sold to law enforcement as there is no FDA variance for law enforcement. The chance of coming across a laser sold via this channel is slim to none.

Another way to get a laser is if a law enforcement officer commits fraud by purchasing the lasers ostensibly for agency use and diverting them to a civilian. Not only will the officer lose his job it is ever discovered, he could possibly face prison time. Any law enforcement officer that has his crediblity damaged by a false statement will never be able to testify in court and consequently will never work in LE again. I think the chance of getting a laser through this channel is also slim to none.

Yet another way is if a civilian is friends with the manufacturer or reseller and acquires one through "unofficial" channels. I don't have the statistics on how common this is but I think it is very uncommon. The manufacturers and resellers know that they could stiff FDA penalties if the practice was discovered and damage to their reputation if their product was linked to some incident in the news. Chances of getting one through this channel? Slim.

I've heard rumors of a reseller selling DBAL lasers to civilians and getting in trouble for it. If it's true, that would be a way to get military lasers. However, I know of no instance in which an L-3 Insight or B.E. Meyers laser has been sold in this manner. Resellers sign and agree to very strict conditions to sell lasers and would not haphazardly jeapardize their ability to sell them by breaking those agreements. Furthermore, the laser manufacturers are very picky in who they select as distributors and resellers. The chances of getting a laser through this avenue? Slim to none.

So what about military surplus? As I stated in my previous post, military lasers are classified as DEMIL-Q and must be destroyed upon exiting service. The DRMO guys are supposed to be experts at what they do. A military laser is hard to confuse with anything else. The things just LOOK dangerous. If they ever do let the lasers slip out into circulation I can't imagine that being frequent. Chances of getting one via DRMO? Slim to none.

99% of the time military lasers are diverted into the civilian market when a military service member steals and resells them on eBay, Craigslist and other forums. Some people voice their disbelief that almost all military lasers in the civiliam market were stolen. Well, I tell you that those people don't know the facts. They base their beliefs on hearsay and rumors. Some anonymous users spout that they know of "plenty" of lasers that were surplused and sold by LE agencies. Who are these agencies? How come law enforcement doesn't know about these agencies?  Don't believe the lies. As a federal agent who has been recovering countless of these laser devices, I have yet to come across a single one that was obtained via any method other than theft. Just in the last month my office recovered 18 of these devices. Every one of them was traced back to the DOD. If there are legitimate units floating around they must be as rare as mermaids. In fact, let's not use the term legitimate to describe these because the only way for a civilian to get one is if someone commits fraud, or makes a major mistake. Non-stolen is a better term.

Knowing that almost all military lasers floating around were stolen (or lost) Government property, it is quite easy to seize the items when found in the hands of civilians. The reason being is that the U.S. Justice system is all about being reasonable. Probable Cause is based on what a reasonable person would believe and probable cause is all we need to legally seize something or make an arrest. When you have FDA laws that prohibit the sale of the lasers to civilians, manufacturers stating that they don't sell to individuals (civilian or not),the military saying that they don't ever DRMO the lasers, and law enforcement stating that they have yet to recover a laser that wasn't stolen, a reasonable person would believe that any laser floating is stolen or lost Government property. If the item was lost, anyone who found the laser would reasonably assume it was Government property (most of them have military markings). Remember the guy who find the Iphone prototype in the bar? He got in trouble because he knew that the legal owner was Apple, even though he had found it. Not returning it is considered theft.

Because of the overwhelming evidence to support that almost all military lasers floating around are stolen, the burden is on the person possessing the device to prove that it wasn't stolen. People can disagree, but would you feel comfortable arguing your case with the FDA, law enforcement, the military and the manufacturers arguing against you?

Don't get the wrong idea. Law enforcement is not interested in seizing a laser that was not stolen. Simply give us the serial number of your device. We will trace it and if it turns out that you have one of the rare units that wasn't stolen you can keep it. In fact, for everyone out there that possesses one simply send me an email with your serial number and I will tell you the disposition of your laser. If you do have a non-stolen laser you can advertise the fact and be famous.

Anyways, to get back on point. Possession of the lasers by civilians is not illegal. However, possessing, or transferring stolen property is. Selling the lasers and not declaring the proceeds on their tax returns is illegal. This illustrates my point that the Government does make it illegal to own the military lasers, in a round-about way.

For those of you that feel it is morally fine to acquire a laser through theft, fraud or negligence, shame on you. Just as drug addicts create a market for drug dealers, you guys create a market that encourages illegal activity. And For what? To have a laser with no practical purpose? As taxpayers, every stolen laser is tax money coming out of your own pockets. Also think about the lasers that have ended up in Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Pakistan and Jordan. Do we really want these countries having these things?

I encourage you to do the right thing and turn in any lasers you may possess.

Even though the Government won't reimburse you after a seizure, if you purchased it from someone else let us know and we'll try to get the seller to provide a refund. Contact us and we'll work something out. Many people have done so and are moving forward with their lives. Email any of the buyers and sellers of lasers on eBay and forums and you'll definitely run across someone we've already spoken too and they can assure you that their lives are better after having returned the lasers.

Regards,

HSI Special Agent Wu

PS. Please excuse any typos and spelling errors. I rushed to finish this

without proofreading it. I also had to break it up because I was hitting the character limit.

Special Agent Wu,
I think I speak for all of us here. Thanks for protecting us from ourselves.
The fact is we don't really care what the reasoning is. The fact is, we the people, are not able to equip ourselves properly according as citizen militias.
The pseudo laws are issued by fiat. We the people did not elect those who make the laws, nor did we the people have input.
These lasers are not ending up in foreign hands through the grey market gun boards. Tell that to the Taliban who stole hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of my units gear off of trucks the military was dumb enough to hire Afghanis to transport.

I am perfectly fine with the government seizing its own property, but don't give us reasons you find validity in their restrictions.

Once again sir, thanks for protecting us from us.

TCBA_Joe

OK, let's do this serially.
Reverse engineer? These things do not have any advanced or secret technology in them. If some insurgent wanted an IR laser, he could buy one from china or ghetto-rig one out of basic components. They are very clever at jury rigging military equipment. Is it as high quality as a DBAL, for example? Of course not. Does it matter? Not really.

True, a person could injure themselves or someone else with one of these. But a person ignorant of gun safety could accidentally shoot himself or others. A bad driver could kill dozens of people and themselves. Too bad, that's the cost of liberty. Plus, what kind of person who is ignorant of laser safety would buy an $800 laser? Furthermore, lasers of significantly higher power levels are already available on the market for a fraction of the cost of high-quality lasers like the DBAL. Many are marketed to airsoft players in European countries (where laser restrictions are more relaxed), and to my knowledge there have been no serious incidences of injury from one of these devices. If anything, they are more dangerous than expensive, USA made lasers due to poor QC and lack of IR filters (on green lasers).

A criminal could user a laser to harm someone? Buddy, if a criminal wanted to do so they would have already. Handheld lasers that exceed two watts in power output are already available all over the world for a small fraction of the cost of a DBAL. There is a man who built a portable, battery-powered 50 watt IR laser with only commonly available equipment and a few hundred dollars. Building a 2-500mW handheld invisible laser is trivially easy and can be done for less than the cost of a new tape switch for a "fancy" laser illuminator.


As for the benefits, I suppose these are all true. Yes, a lot of people want nothing more from these lasers than to be tacticool, but there are plenty of legitimate uses for them. Even if there weren't, by my thinking that is not reason enough to make them illegal.


As for your point about drug addicts funding the drug trade in the way that military laser purchasers fund theft, you are correct. However, there are many who would argue that too many things being illegal is the real cause of these trades (case in point: prohibition).

Anyway, I understand that you aren't really in a position to affect these laws, but I hope you see that from our point of view they don't really make sense. People here tend to be of a "live and let live" mentality, especially when it comes to government regulation of products.

spot on.

i was reading your post and listening to your views until i got to the "benefits" part. total bullshit.

they are already export prohibited so the reverse engineer point is moot.

as said above, if i were going to pay 2k on a peq-15, i dont think i will be trying to blind people. besides, its on a GUN to begin with. apparently the government thinks that i am good enough to own GUNS but not a laser.

it doesnt matter why people want it (and there are legitimate reasons to own one), its the fact that there is no REAL reason why to make them illegal.

if its because you dont want them in untrained hands, why cant individual servicemen and LEOs buy them?

if you want to get down to brass tacks here, i guarantee you yourself have some things you dont really NEED. should we make those items illegal too?

I expected that people wouldn't agree with why the Government restricts the sale of the lasers. I am not here to debate whether the FDA regulations are appropriate or not. I'm just doing my job recovering stolen Government property which is the real crux of the issue. If you want your lasers, fine. Just don't expect the Government to stand idly while its property, the property of the people, is being sold for the profit of a single, selfish individual.

Napesticks, to address your points, export laws do not prevent the stuff from leaving the country. They criminalize the illegal export of controlled technologies but just as some people are getting lasers they are not supposed to be getting, foreign nationals are doing the same. My examples of lasers going to the Middle East were not merely examples. In many of my eBay cases the lasers were exported and we have no way of getting them back. Just check eBay for completed auctions and see for yourself positive feedback left for lasers from foreign eBay accounts.

As far as reverse engineering goes, why make it easier if we don't have to? Sure, foreign companies can do the R&D to design and manufacture their own but they won't because they can just copy ours. Look at the high quality AN/PEQ-15 copies on eBay from China. Don't think they didn't reverse engineer L-3 Insight's model.

As far as not selling them to individual servicemen and law enforcement, did you not read my post? I touched on that issue. What is to stop an individual from selling it? Or losing it? Or having it stolen from their home or vehicle? Or dying and having the ownership of the device transfer to the next of kin? As for why the Gov bans lasers and not guns, that was also addressed in my post...

I gave you concrete examples of why reasonable people think the lasers should be restricted. You gave me zero reasons of why they should,  throwing out "plenty of legitimate uses" without actually giving any, just as how you know of "plenty of LE agencies that have sold their lasers" to civilians without any facts to back up your claims. Give me a few of these legitimate applications that could not be done just as well with something cheaper and more practical. So far I'm not convinced.

Anyways, regardless of why the laws are in place, stop buying the lasers because they're most certainly stolen. If you like guns I wouldn't touch these lasers because a felony conviction would preclude you from ever owning one again. Go lobby Congress to change the laws but until then lets not rationalize why stealing Government property is ok.

Have a great evening everyone.

Nvm.

Legitimate use- hog/rodent/pest control

For that matter, they're good for any night shooting.  Whether it be for competition, varmint elimination, or home protection is of little consequence.

Can anyone imagine the fun possibilities of an all steel multigun match at night?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

1. Self Defense. It's a lot easier to put a dot on someone than to line up ironsights when you're freaking out and someone is trying to kill you.
2. Easier target acquisition in general (for pest control especially). Same as above.
3. Shooting in the dark.
4. Because we want them. A Ferrari is more dangerous than a Hyundai, for example. But because we, as Americans, want to own them, we are allowed to. The government does not have the right to tell us we can't.


I don't believe the reasons you gave are enough. I already explained that more powerful lasers are available to anyone who wants them for a fraction of the cost, so most of your arguments are meaningless.

Just buy civilian legal Class I IR lasers. No doubt then.

ETA: I want the better ones too, but I won't risk it.

How about PEQ-15 SN/ 999527 ??  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=252406751

Where did this one come from?

what about the ones in the EE too?

You obviously aren't legacy INS as there are MANY other ways to be illegally in this country simply without simple non-entry through a POE without valid docs.  This, on top of your other "arguments," don't lend too much credence to your reasoning behind ownership of Class III lasers.

Just because the FDA, who regulates and doesn't enforce, says one thing is bad for you doesn't make it scripture.  

No kidding. It feels like the FDA is abusing laws that were supposed to only apply to medical devices and instead applying them to non-medical devices as well.

I like the idea of having some agency that makes sure food and medicine is safe (to an extent), but I don't see how the food and drug administration gets off regulating something that is neither a food nor a drug.

1. True
2.True
3. True
4. True

I agree

Funny thing about the FDA, there are several medicines that are legal and fit for consumption for humans in Canada, but for some reason, the FDA says they are NOT fit for consumption for humans, so they cannot be sold here.  Ironically, veterinarians prescribe the "not fit for consumption by humans" medication to animals.  If it's good for Canada (or other countries), it's not good for the US.

The same argument goes for suppressors.  Where they are legal and freely sold in other countries (and encouraged to be used to be courteous to your neighbor to suppress the sound), here, the 1934 NFA MGA "demonized" them and requires users to pay a tax.  And this is only allowed in FREE states!

I have to remind myself that this is the .GOV and it's not suppose to make sense.  If it's logical, they won't do it.

Lastly, it's currently legal to build your own IR laser, illuminator, etc (at whatever strength you want), so how can the FDA regulate  enforce that?

No, I am not legacy INS. Obviously there are other ways to be in violation such as overstaying a visa but I was not going to get into every aspect of the INA. I used the most common violation which is hopping across the border without valid documentation.

I'm not sure why people are intent on trying to convince me that the FDA shouldn't have the authority to regulate these lasers. Like I previously stated, I only care about stolen Government property. The current situation is that 99.9% of military lasers in the civilian market are stolen, end of story.

I sent a request to trace this unit. I'll get back to you.

Because you told us that civilians can't be trusted with them, have no legitimate purpose, and shouldn't have any problem with the government restrictions. And because this is a thread about the FDA's stance on these lasers. You actually caused this thread to drift off course.

Special Agent Wu,

Although I disagree with the regulatory restrictions placed on these products, I appreciate your argument that the units in question are likely stolen.  Thank you for dropping by to comment in an official capacity.

Regards
Mr. Psmith
(the P is silent)

You are welcome. I recall in the eighties and nineties that I had questions about the import of Airsoft guns and mock suppressors and always wished that I could get a response from the ATF or U.S. Customs to authoritatively state what I needed to do to import the items legally. Some people said red paint on the barrel, some people said that wasn't required because it's not a toy but a BB gun. Some people said trademarks had to be destroyed, others said putty or taping over the trademarks would work. The point is, it was a mess. I see the same confusion with military lasers and felt that since I actually know the situation first hand it would benefit the community by letting people know what is legal and what isn't. Eventually I hope to reach a point in which the majority of people interested in lasers know that military lasers are practically certain to be stolen.
For those who would still like an IR laser, the class I DBAL is perfectly legal.

Also, while off topic, please spread the word that military items like range finders, lasers, riflescopes, weapon mounts, night vision and thermal devices, radios, etc. are ITAR controlled and cannot be exported without a State Department Approved export license. I still see people every day selling our military superiority to our enemies abroad. NOT.COOL.

speaking of, i saw a CCI PRC-148 on ebay...wtf?

Those are probably one of those working reproductions that are a hot item with the airsoft crowd. Just like all the PEQ knockoffs. Those fakes are getting better every day.

On a related note. If military lasers are almost certain to be stolen, then how are brand new ones showing up all the time from foreign sellers? It's just a few sellers but they never seem to to be short of supply. I'm talking PEQ-2's, 15's, 18's, etc. Brand new. If they were used, I could understand them slipping through. But how are they getting new ones? Why worry about invoking ITAR to prevent selling used military superiority abroad when they can buy new US military superiority abroad?

I am not sure, but rumor had it that Canada doesn't care who owns IR lasers........ and the American companies are selling to them through some kind of ITAR regulation for allied countries.  Maybe, just maybe that may have something to do with the supply here in the states??  But I am just throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks......

no the one i saw was a real no shit CCI item. you could buy a car for what it sold for

I couldn't find anything that ended within the last 15 days. Did it sell? I think that shortly there is going to be two individuals getting knocks on their door.

Thales does sell an MBITR without the military grade type 1 encryption. Blackheart International sells them, but they run $7300-8600 depending on the model.
http://www.bhigear.com/search.aspx?manufacturer=246&log=false&high=10000.00&low=5000.00

There's discussion in the archives here:
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=10&f=22&t=649687&page=1

this was probably about 2 or 3 months ago.

Joe, i know that Thales sells non CCI 148s, but this one was a CCI one. i cant remember the exact wording of the ad, but i had a WTF face when i read it. i cant remember if the seller was in the US or not.

Soooo, it's been more than a week and still no answer on that unit on GB?  I guess if someone was pulled over and a police officer saw one of these evil laser devices, then what, he can't even check to see if it 's stolen or not in a timely manner..... I mean really?

I am still of the belief that most of these units on EE and GB are either private contractors selling these things or people finding ways to buy them in say Canada and just driving them across the border.  

My main reason for that:  I count EVERY G0* D@><  SERIAL-NUMBERED ITEM IN MY COMPANY, EVERY G0* D@>< WEEK OR SO!  How any friggin' soldier/sailor/airman/marine could possibly get away with dozens and dozens of these 3000$ units is not even something that I could imagine.  I did a little check, and there are on average 12 or so sold per month on EE??  Really, CID / NCIS / FBI ain't that incompetent??

that about sums up my feelings.

in 4 years in the infantry i only saw one peq15 get "lost".

oh, and since so many agents comb this board, i dont understand how there are STILL PEQ-15s listed in the EE on here. if theres a 99.99999999% chance its stolen military property, why havent their ads been pulled by the moderators? why arent they made to show proof of where they got the PEQ to show its not .mil property?

for crying out loud, i got one of my ads pulled because i was selling an NVG bag that had the manual in it, even though you can buy the manuals on ebay!