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Posted: 1/26/2003 4:09:11 PM EDT
| Anyone know websites that sell Level 4 Tac vests? |
| As yet, there is no level IV soft armor (and might not ever really be). You can add a Level VI Hard Armor plate to most types of vests, but the highest rating in softarmor (i.e the vest that you asked for) is level IIIa. What is your threat and what makes you want to cocoon yourself in such a high protection rating? You might very well not need something so drastic to protect yourself from what you might potentically face. |
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I'm with JohnBlade23, when I get BA, I want to be prepared for the worst. I want level 4. I want the big plates too 10"x14" not these little 6"x9" plates. Actually I want to be wrapped in armor plating, I want to have to be hit by a round from a tank to be put down. If you're going to get BA, get the best. |
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Are you a LEO? The higher the protection, the higher the weight, less flexible, hotter, and bulky. If you just want to realistically wear armour around town which isn't that bad of an idea, I'd highly recommend Second Chance IIa concealable soft body unit. [url]www.secondchance.com[/url] These light weight units won't hamper your mobility and bake you to death. You won't feel like a ninja turtle. These are some high end units, and will fetch a pretty penny. Typically around 2000 clams. You'll at least wear the unit. -Steve |
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Are you a LEO? The higher the protection, the higher the weight, less flexible, hotter, and bulky. If you just want to realistically wear armour around town which isn't that bad of an idea, I'd highly recommend Second Chance IIa concealable soft body unit. [url]www.secondchance.com[/url] These light weight units won't hamper your mobility and bake you to death. You won't feel like a ninja turtle. These are some high end units, and will fetch a pretty penny. Typically around 2000 clams. You'll at least wear the unit. -Steve |
| Level IV is nice, but has some inherent drawbacks. Most level IV plates are either ceramic or some sort of metal. The ceramic plates shatter upon impact, usually protecting from only one shot. The metal plates can usually take a few more hits. But with metal, it's not uncommon for the projectile to fragment. Those fragments go every which way. It would definitly suck if one of those fragments hit your throat or groin, femoral artery, etc. |
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Quoted: Level IV is nice, but has some inherent drawbacks. Most level IV plates are either ceramic or some sort of metal. The ceramic plates shatter upon impact, usually protecting from only one shot. The metal plates can usually take a few more hits. But with metal, it's not uncommon for the projectile to fragment. This might have been the case ten years ago; but certainly not the standard now. Some of the new Cercom plates are rated at 12 hits from API munitions. Good Armor is lightweight, strong, and multi-hit rated -- however, there is not yet any soft level IV armor. The trade off is speed, comfort, mobility, and price. Armor that is rated highly enough to stop a 30-06 AP projectile (level IV) is not something that you want to walk around in daily. Level three is rated to stop 7.62 NATO; but is still only available as a hard composite; not in a soft pacakge. The highest that you will find that is wearable is a level IIIa (plus perhaps); but to get that level of protection in a comfortable and useable weight is EXPENSIVE (you can get it cheap too; but it is bulky, almost prohibitively so). My anology of all of this is think of a world war one tank versus a modern day HMMWV. Would a hummer with a grenade launcher win in a fight between the two or would the heavily armored and armed tank that goes 6 MPH prevail? There is no 'BEST' armor for everything. Decide your circumstances and then buy what you can afford that will do what you need. |
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Quoted: Are you a LEO? The higher the protection, the higher the weight, less flexible, hotter, and bulky. Everybody says this like it's supposed to change my mind. So what's your point? Bulky, heavy, hotter, stiffer as opposed to what [size=6]DEAD THAT'S WHAT.[/size=6] Whenever I start even thinking about [>(] about the BA being heavy, hot, blah, blah I'll be thinking bout how it's going to save my life someday, bringing me back to my beautiful wife and children. |
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It would definitly suck if one of those fragments hit your throat or groin, femoral artery, etc. Nam, if I got hit in the femoral artery after going to the trouble of wearing level IV BA, I'd pretty much get the message God would so obviously be sending. Time to go buddy. You're right it would suck. So what, I'm just not supposed to wear BA now cuz even it might fail to save my life? I just don't get some of these comments. |
| According to the armorer at Dallas Police Supply, there has never been shooting in the United States where a level IIIa would have made a difference. The level IIa seems to be more than adequate. Officers that were killed wearing IIa were shot in the head or something. Second Chance makes a very good concealable vest. |
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I would expect that anyone taking shots at me with a .30-06 would be good enough to put me down with a single headshot. I would get Armor to defend against a maximum of 7.62x39mm or 5.56x45mm. These are about the 2 strognest rounds you can ever expect to run into in the hands of a criminal. I highly doubt any bank robber or other criminal has used a .30-06 since the days of Bonnie and Clyde... |
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O.K. guys, I work in the security industry where in the city I live in more security officers were killed in one year that the any LEO has been killed in the last 7 years. I wear level IIA at work but my interest in higher level armor is from a home defence/civil unrest point of view. I'm woke up in the middle of the night by the sound of someone kicking my door in. Sliding the best armor (even if it is uncomfortable and bulky)on with my AR15 or 12guage shotgun in hand would make me feel very good about surviving that conflict. Another riot breaks out in "my town USA" and Level 4 BA would make me more capable of defending my family and home. O.K. so you say that "you will not be likely to need anything over levelIIA armor" but what about the freak crime spree in "The Hollywood Bank Robbery". Mybe I will never need level 4 but it's extra peace of mind. |
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Quoted: So what, I'm just not supposed to wear BA now cuz even it might fail to save my life? I just don't get some of these comments. Not at all. Anything is better than nothing. I'm jsut trying to say that everything has inherent advantages and disadvantages. If you don't expect to encounter much .30-06 AP, you might be better off with a III. I'm jsut sayign that there is no "cure all". Everything has ups and downs, and you much find the best for your situation with the least drawbacks. I have a Level IV and a IIIA. The IV stays in the closet except for when it's really needed. |
| My department issues level II vests and even those can be miserable on a hot day. But I always told the rookies that it felt better than an iron lung. This company sent us a flyer a while back and I thought you guys may be interested. [url]http://www.usaarmoring.com/new/sas.html[/url]They make level IV flexible armor, apparently without using plates. They even sell them as concealable vests. I would imagine the damn thing would make you look like you were wearing a life jacket under your shirt. Too much armor for us, and I imagine that you would have to take out a second mortgage to buy one but some people just like the peace of mind. I have always considered my armor to be protection against the unseen threat (handgun or possibly sawed off shotgun), anything else takes a little time to deploy and I'll use available cover. The thing to remember is that your armor doesn't replace cover, it just (hopefully) protects you until you can get there. |
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First, unless you wear a full helmet, it's not going to matter how much your chest is protected if you get shot in the head. Same goes with other body parts. Want to see Level 4? Have you seen the infamous LA bank shootout? If you cover yourself head to toe, it like walking around in a double down parkas, except all over. Very bulky, and everyone will notice. Try this - get a IIIa vest, follow it up with one of those BA jackets (like the long military jacket style)with plates (worn over your IIIa with plates). Maybe that may help a little more. Imagine the knights of old, wearing all that metal armor - full plate, yeah, I suppose better uncomfortable than dead, but they couldn't even get up sometimes after being knocked down. I'm not saying Lv 4 is that bad, but it's going to be hot, heavy, bulky, and you may find it hard to move and seek cover, spin and shoot, if it comes down to it - run away. Again, unless the shooter hits you in the plate, which won't cover more than a big square or rectangle on the front and back, you are going down, which is when they can take the time for the next shot. If it hits anywhere your Lv4 doesn't cover (assuming the bullet doesn't zip up or down a seam, or into your armpit, possibly via through your arm) you are going to take a lethal hit. Even a leg or arm hit can take out a major artery, let alone your neck or head, and I haven't seen common face armor.... Edited to add: IIRC, even law enforcement doesn't wear Lv IV unless they are going into a situation where they expect to get shot at, like SWAT CQB. |
| I have worn three types of hard body armor in my military service. First type was level four that had very large plates, about the size you desribe. It was like walking around wearing a trash can as a shirt. It was very difficult to move around, and almost impossible to go into the prone. It also weighed about 50 pounds. Yes, it would stop multiple kits from 7.62 AP, but yoou needed the extra protection because you moved so slow. Only good sitting in a vehicle or something. Then it was very difficult to get in and out. Second type is Ranger Body armor, like the Rangers used in Somalia. It was a little better, the plates were not so big (I used the upgraded version with front and back plates). You had more mobility, and could actually move around. But again, it was heavy (about 35-40 lbs), bulky and hot. The latest stuff is the new SPEARS armor (The Rangers use the same thing now, the only difference is the way the MOLLE webbing is sewn). It has plates front and back, and is pretty light (about 20-25 lbs). Though the actuall plates are the fairly large, the vest doesnt cover all of you. It only covers up to about the belly button. This is for more mobility of course. This stuff is pretty confortable, and easy to move around in. Its very slim also. Though the stuff will stop a bullet, it will probably know you on your ass, knock the wind out of you, and maybe crack a rib. |
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JohnBlade23 sez: What makes me want level 4? BULLETS! I don't care if it is a 25 jam-o-matic fired at me from 50yards, I want the best BA I can get. I'm of the school of thought that you can never have to much firepower or BH. Level III should be enough for basic rifle protection, unless you're expecting multiple AP hits. If that's what your worried about then... well, that's a little silly. Stottman sez: Though the stuff will stop a bullet, it will probably know you on your ass, knock the wind out of you, and maybe crack a rib. Also, a 7.62x51 bullet strike from a 18" FAL at ~ 2 yards direct to the chest with Level III armor won't even knock over a guy standing on one foot. In fact, it won't even cause a sway. (The owner of Second Chance did it in a video back when). Save the "knockdown power" discussion for the silver screen. :) Most military body armor is more about anti-fragmentation than it is about defeating rifle rounds. SPEARS has good plates, that's an improvment, but low coverage area. It's always a trade off. Don't overestimate the power of body armor though. |
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Quoted: It would definitly suck if one of those fragments hit your throat or groin, femoral artery, etc. Nam, if I got hit in the femoral artery after going to the trouble of wearing level IV BA, I'd pretty much get the message God would so obviously be sending. Time to go buddy. You're right it would suck. So what, I'm just not supposed to wear BA now cuz even it might fail to save my life? I just don't get some of these comments. Well, I think most of them are a response to the fairly serious overkill of your proposed purchase. It's going the be hella expensive and you're going to look like a militia nut wearing the stuff anywhere but in your armchair in front of the TV. (Then you'll look like a lazy militia nut, but only your wife/gf will see you- maybe that turns her on... maybe she's a redhead... we're strange in that we have a thing for guys in body armor- but a life jacket painted black works just as well for that effect usually :) ). That said- if you're still prepared to buy the stuff, people here are probably wondering what your threat model could realistically be to make it worth while. You're clearly expecting incoming rifle fire. From who? Most gun crime in the U.S. (sheesh, it must be near 80-90%) is handgun related so far as I know. What exactly are you expecting? Where are you that you can walk around with Level IV armor and not attract attention? That's what's driving the comments. |
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Quoted: I would expect that anyone taking shots at me with a .30-06 would be good enough to put me down with a single headshot. I would get Armor to defend against a maximum of 7.62x39mm or 5.56x45mm. These are about the 2 strognest rounds you can ever expect to run into in the hands of a criminal. I highly doubt any bank robber or other criminal has used a .30-06 since the days of Bonnie and Clyde... This is Level III then. Plates. Bulk. Heat. Ugh. |
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I think you have some false conceptions about body armor. Body armor is tool that helps one get past the "reactionary gap;" statistically, most police gunfights start out with the badguy shooting the cop and getting a hit (91% of the BG's first shots are hits) and the cop plaing "catch-up." Body armor allows one to survive the first round(s), with luck, and continue to fight and SURVIVE. Higher levels of armor are good if you are doing tactical operations. I wear one of those nice Level III TAP443 10" X 12" plates in my tactical armor; it only weighs 3.5 pounds. It is also 2" thick. I tried putting it in my patrol vest just for academic purposes; it won't work. We also have some 10" X 14" ceramic composite plates (ceramic and Spectrashield) that weigh 5.8 pounds. They are great, but still bulky. Second Chance also offers rifle plates as applique plates in Level III for helmets. I haven't heard how well these work yet. Similarly, many of the major manufacturers are offering "AK-47 Plates" for concealable vests; Level III plates designed to be worn by patrol officers to counter the proliferation of SKSs and AKs, which seem to show up frequently in the hands of dirtbags, especially the ones who shoot at cops. It remains to be seen how well this concept works. The point of these heavy "rifle" plates is not to allow one to run around, soaking up heavy-caliber rounds like paintballs. They are designed to allow a tactical officer (or soldier) to survive to win a quick encounter, and to not take any hits in the chest cavity that would lead to rapid death. You can still take lethal hits, and none of the armor will do you much good if you are alone and: -there is no medic to keep you from bleeding to death; -the BG walks up and pops you in the back of the head; -your well-trained opponent drops into a failure to stop drill and shatters your pelvic girdle with a couple rounds, following up with a headshot after you hit the ground. This stuff works much better if you have a dozen or so tac officers along to take care of little stuff like that for you after you go down. Heavy body armor is a TEAM-enhancing thing. It is a necessary, and fairly expensive tool if you and ten of your-highly trained co-workers are doing an explosive entry into a house to rescue a hostage; it has far less value if you are alone. It is also heavy; my tactical "kit" probably weighs in at about 60 pounds, including weapons and ammo, and is probably at the upper range for tactical stuff, if one wants to remain effective. Most folks who have threats are much better served by wearing a normal, concealable Level II vest. Many police agencies are going to Level IIIA vests for general patrol, and that isn't bad, but your expense goes up significantly. Good Level IIIA full coverage tactical armor will run you between 1-2 grand; I know, I am buying new armor for our team right now, and it is not an easy process. There are hundreds of options and configurations, all of which vary on the levels of mobility you need, common threats, and specific threats (Do you have lots of threats from above? Then you probably need shoulder coverage, and so on). Even a newer, high-speed concealable Level IIIA vest can set you back a grand. You would rpobably be better served by a cheap, concealable Level II, a cell phone and some good, defensible cover. |
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Quoted: My department issues level II vests and even those can be miserable on a hot day. But I always told the rookies that it felt better than an iron lung. This company sent us a flyer a while back and I thought you guys may be interested. [url]http://www.usaarmoring.com/new/sas.html[/url]They make level IV flexible armor, apparently without using plates. They even sell them as concealable vests. I would imagine the damn thing would make you look like you were wearing a life jacket under your shirt. Too much armor for us, and I imagine that you would have to take out a second mortgage to buy one but some people just like the peace of mind. I have always considered my armor to be protection against the unseen threat (handgun or possibly sawed off shotgun), anything else takes a little time to deploy and I'll use available cover. The thing to remember is that your armor doesn't replace cover, it just (hopefully) protects you until you can get there. This firm either has very sneaking (borderline dishonest) advertizing or they are just poor at website design. They say level III but I don't see anywhere that it's actually NIJ certified. That's concerning. By contrast they have no problem citing other standards. To wit: "system exceeds the MIL-B 44053 fragmentation requirements." (These aren't very exciting requirements. Why not explicitly cite NIJ? Strange. Hopefully they are NIJ cert'd- if so it would be a very nice product. |
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When I went to work in close protection, I shopped around for the best option in body armor for three months or so before I bought some. I ended up with Second Chance Monarch in IIIa. I went with the Monarch because it is Kevlar, and not made from Zylon. The manufacturer of Zylon, a Japanese company whose name escapes me, does not warranty its use in applications where exposure to heat will be a factor. I live in Texas, and the last thing I need is to have my body armor panels turn into thick coffee can lids because it sat in my truck in a Texas July. NIJ IIIa is not rated to stop rifle fire, but rifle fire isn't the primary threat here in the States. Also, for additional protection, there is a large pocket on the chest of my carrier that will take "pacs" and plates that Second Chance sells to supplement the soft armor they sell. The pacs are soft, usually Kevlar, while the plates are made of steel, titanium, ceramic or a composite of the above. |
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I don't understand you people. I don't think I'ld trust level III with my life if I was expecting rifle fire. If I am in danger I don't care if the armor weighs 17lbs. I want to stop any hit and multiple hits. Sure you might save 9 lbs by not taking plates; but you might also pay for it with a bullet through the lungs or liver! I've never pussed out of carring anything (Armor is a stupid place to start). |
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What you don't understand is that most people, including law enforcement and military, do not expect to be shot at by a rifle from minute to minute, therefore it is not necessary or worth it to wear Lv IV on a normal basis. They wear it when they go into combat, into action, and so forth, not when just walking around or during the 99%+ of the time when the chances are they are not going to be shot at with a rifle, to do so would reduce your other capabilities needlessly. Do you wear goggles all the time? The chances are far greater that something will hit your eyes. Do you wear hearing protection all the time? Unless you know something loud is going to occur, or is occuring, why would one wear it. Construction workers don't wear hard hats when not on the job, but you never know when you are going to bump your head or something will hit it. You may think that your personal risk factor of taking (a freak occurance of) rifle fire is enough to warrant being bogged down in heavy armor, sweating and constantaly expending energy, always having a higher fatigue factor, and reduced dexterity, but simple fact is that most people don't, even law enforcement and military who wear reduced levels. Most people don't drag around a .50 caliber weapon, though there is a tiny chance that you may need or could use the power and penetration. Okay, so some of the examples I used are not life threatening - you may think that - hey! this is my LIFE, I only have one of those! Think about this - do you drive a vehicle? The chances are far, far greater that you will die in a vehicular accident, so if you put your foot down when it comes to your life, you are doing yourself a better favor if you never drive again, that will do more to protect your life than protecting yourself against a rifle shot which will probably never come, unless you are in a military firefight, and even then the chances are minimal. People who served in Desert Storm, in combat, were safer than if they had been driving around the good ole USA, statistically speaking, and in general. It's just a matter of practicality, and the fact the the chances of taking an unexpected rifle shot while not in direct combat or known high threat situation, is incredibly small, and the drawbacks of Level IV armor are quite significant. What's not to understand? This is how it works in the real world. If you want to go around wearing a ridiculous amount of armor while probably never taking a rifle shot, by all means, go for it. Might as well bulletproof your vehicle, barracade your house, and put away all sharp objects cause hey, you never know what might happen. It's up to each individual, it's just in this case, most have don't consider it practical on a regular basis, but opinions vary. When you get the armor, drop us a picture of you wearing it, what brand and why, and what it cost - I am curious about those aspects no matter what the posts say for or against. |
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I guess the reasons people seem to be questioning your desire for level IV body armor are things like the very low chance you would be taking rifle hits, the fact 50-60 lbs of additional weight WILL slow you down (and possibly blow out a knee joint while running / dodging), your statement that security officers are 7 times more likely to die on duty than cops in your city (where do you live/work, anyway?), and the eerie resemblance of this thread to an infamous "Mall Ninja" thread. |
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Quoted: I guess the reasons people seem to be questioning your desire for level IV body armor are things like the very low chance you would be taking rifle hits, the fact 50-60 lbs of additional weight WILL slow you down (and possibly blow out a knee joint while running / dodging), your statement that security officers are 7 times more likely to die on duty than cops in your city (where do you live/work, anyway?), and the eerie resemblance of this thread to an infamous "Mall Ninja" thread. Mall ninjas do have a greater chance of being hurt...usually by me. [X] |
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Quoted: Quoted: I guess the reasons people seem to be questioning your desire for level IV body armor are things like the very low chance you would be taking rifle hits, the fact 50-60 lbs of additional weight WILL slow you down (and possibly blow out a knee joint while running / dodging), your statement that security officers are 7 times more likely to die on duty than cops in your city (where do you live/work, anyway?), and the eerie resemblance of this thread to an infamous "Mall Ninja" thread. Mall ninjas do have a greater chance of being hurt...usually by me. [X] Okay, I can go with the 7 times more likely to die on duty than cops, but how much of that is due to rifle fire? Knightone, if you use rifles to hunt mall ninja, you ARE BAD! If they are wearing level IV armor, get their attention with a pistol, then let them chase you - they will fall over expired due to exhaustion from all that body armor. Hell, seeing someone wear Lv IV almosts begs to be shot, tough to resist, might as well wear a bullseye! Just trolling... [:K] + [flame] |
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No, AR_Mike, I do not hunt mall ninjas with rifles. I did say hurt, not kill. Usually it's with sinister devices like "the jar of bees" that are smashed on the ground near the mall ninjas or "the angry ferrets" let loose in the mall ninja base of operations. These are also good to make the armor clad ninjas fall over from exhaustion. Those are just the classics, I have many new dastardly devices on the drawing board to pester the mall ninjas (my arch nemeses/nemisises). Yes sinister indeed.[}:D] Bad, you say? I prefer the term "genius"! |
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Guys, Guys, Guys, I didn't say S.O.s (mall ninjas??????) are 7 times more likly to be killed in my city I said that in the last 7 years there has been more S.O.s killed than LEO. I do want LvIV armor to wear to my job I use IIA for that. Why does any of us buy tons of extra mags and ammo and rat hole it away? A rainy day? SHTF? LVIV is for a "worst case situation". Now to address Mr. Knightone and his hate for mall ninjas. I live to stick no parking stickers to the windshields of guys like you! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE..................... |
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Quoted: I don't understand you people. I don't think I'ld trust level III with my life if I was expecting rifle fire. Okay Green0, I reread your post and my response wasn't quite appropriate. I think the KEY WORDS you used were [b]"if I was [red]expecting[/red] rifle fire"[/b] If you are truly expecting it, then hell yeah, who wouldn't want the most protection possible. It's just that most people, including most law enforcement, are not expecting it. Even those that do, don't expect it on a regular basis, just during specific times of high level threat. I suppose if I was a security officer, who only walked back and forth, or sat around and occasionally checked a compound/area, then what could it hurt. Of course someone like that is not going to get paid enough to afford good Lv IV. I also like to think about the Secret Service protecting the President - if anyone is expecting random rifle fire, it's them or some other high end security detail, but even they don't wear it. Kind of would like it if I was expected to take a bullet protecting the principal. Would make it hard to run along side the car though. Now when they can make Lv IV armor that is only as cumbersome and light as Lv II-IIIa, I'll want some, but I am sure it will be expensive. |
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If you are EXPECTING to come under rifle fire then body armor aint what you want. You want a freaking armored vehicle. You can pickup surplus ferrets or similiar things, heck step up to a tank, I know a few shermans and even have heard of an M-60 being available, if you are truly fearful of rifle fire. |
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