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Posted: 12/2/2014 7:55:42 PM EDT
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New to the magnification game. When zeroing a 1-4x, say you are zeroing at 100yrds, do you keep the scope on 1x? And if so, when you magnify to say 3x on the same 100yrd target, should the point of impact be the same as the 1x at 100yrds? And say my only range is 25yrds and I zero at 25 yrds at 1x and it's hitting about 2-3 inches low (which is fine), if I were to move to 2x at 25 yards, should I be hitting the same spot or does the magnification change things?
sorry if this is a dumb question. Thanks |
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It should impact the same spot regardless I power . Some cheap scopes have a problem with this though. Also, some people on lower powers at further distances just plain cannot see the target good enough ^ Just keep in mind the disadvantages present when using a second focal plane scope; assuming that's what you're using. |
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^ Just keep in mind the disadvantages present when using a second focal plane scope; assuming that's what you're using. Quoted:
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It should impact the same spot regardless I power . Some cheap scopes have a problem with this though. Also, some people on lower powers at further distances just plain cannot see the target good enough ^ Just keep in mind the disadvantages present when using a second focal plane scope; assuming that's what you're using. Keep in mind that many of us consider second focal plane scopes to be an advantage. They typically have more useful reticles at low power in low light, because they do not appear to shrink in size and thickness. This is especially true if the scope is not illuminated. Ranging accuracy claims for first focal plane scopes are typically irrelevant on low power scopes like 1-4x, because they are seldom, if ever, used at intermediate zoom settings. Either they are turned down to 1x for close work where a very visible reticle is needed, or turned up to max 4x for longer shots, where the ranging subtensions are accurate. This is one reason FFP scopes have never caught on with hunters. While they serve a purpose in higher magnification scopes at longer ranges, that is not how 1-4x scopes are used, I would respectfully submit. OP: Consider using the typical battle zero 50 yard zero for your scope. The same as with your backup sights. With most 55 and 62 grain ammo, you will be within 3" to 3.5" of your point of aim from the end of your barrel out to almost 300 yards. Only modest holdover is needed to shoot to 400. After that you do need to use the ranging capibilities of your reticle, or your tactical turrets, if you have the latter. Set your scope at its highest setting when zeroing, as that will help you shoot your best groups. You need tight groups to make accurate adjustments on your windage and elevation turrets to bring your point of impact to where you want it. That should be a tightly centered group at your chosen zero. Try the 50 yard battle zero method and see how it works go you. That is also about 2.5" high at 100 yards, and about 1.25" low at 25. Bear in mind that small differences in your point of impact at a 25 yard target become huge at longer ranges, so you really need to verify the trajectory at least at 50, and preferably at the second zero, where the bullet returns to your point of aim at somewhere between 200 and about 240 yards, and then starts dropping below your point of aim. |
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For second focal plane scopes, your POI will be different for the BDC/stadia lines but the center aiming point will be the same under different magnifications. So, zero at max magnification and know that your BDC will only be accurate that magnification.
Also, most scopes have parallax setup at 100yds. Anything within that will have some parallax error. Try to use a consistent cheekweld as possible, whenever you're within 100yds to minimize it. Your zero distance will depend on you and how well you want it to align with your BDC/stadia lines. |
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I would double check if I were you. I've seen scopes that had about a 1" drift at 100 yards going from low to high zoom. As others said, it SHOULDN'T but that doesn't mean it won't. ^^ This^^ My VX-R is about 3/4 of an inch different when switching from 1.25 to 4 power at 100 yards. Some of it is probably operator error in holding the group at the lower power but there is a small difference. It's not enough for me to really worry about. David |
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Keep in mind that many of us consider second focal plane scopes to be an advantage. They typically have more useful reticles at low power in low light, because they do not appear to shrink in size and thickness. This is especially true if the scope is not illuminated. Ranging accuracy claims for first focal plane scopes are typically irrelevant on low power scopes like 1-4x, because they are seldom, if ever, used at intermediate zoom settings. Either they are turned down to 1x for close work where a very visible reticle is needed, or turned up to max 4x for longer shots, where the ranging subtensions are accurate. This is one reason FFP scopes have never caught on with hunters. While they serve a purpose in higher magnification scopes at longer ranges, that is not how 1-4x scopes are used, I would respectfully submit. Quoted:
Keep in mind that many of us consider second focal plane scopes to be an advantage. They typically have more useful reticles at low power in low light, because they do not appear to shrink in size and thickness. This is especially true if the scope is not illuminated. Ranging accuracy claims for first focal plane scopes are typically irrelevant on low power scopes like 1-4x, because they are seldom, if ever, used at intermediate zoom settings. Either they are turned down to 1x for close work where a very visible reticle is needed, or turned up to max 4x for longer shots, where the ranging subtensions are accurate. This is one reason FFP scopes have never caught on with hunters. While they serve a purpose in higher magnification scopes at longer ranges, that is not how 1-4x scopes are used, I would respectfully submit. That's nice but that comment was concerning what was covered below by Superset. Quoted:
For second focal plane scopes, your POI will be different for the BDC/stadia lines but the center aiming point will be the same under different magnifications. So, zero at max magnification and know that your BDC will only be accurate that magnification. Also, most scopes have parallax setup at 100yds. Anything within that will have some parallax error. Try to use a consistent cheekweld as possible, whenever you're within 100yds to minimize it. Your zero distance will depend on you and how well you want it to align with your BDC/stadia lines. |
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That's nice but that comment was concerning what was covered below by Superset. Quoted:
Quoted:
Keep in mind that many of us consider second focal plane scopes to be an advantage. They typically have more useful reticles at low power in low light, because they do not appear to shrink in size and thickness. This is especially true if the scope is not illuminated. Ranging accuracy claims for first focal plane scopes are typically irrelevant on low power scopes like 1-4x, because they are seldom, if ever, used at intermediate zoom settings. Either they are turned down to 1x for close work where a very visible reticle is needed, or turned up to max 4x for longer shots, where the ranging subtensions are accurate. This is one reason FFP scopes have never caught on with hunters. While they serve a purpose in higher magnification scopes at longer ranges, that is not how 1-4x scopes are used, I would respectfully submit. That's nice but that comment was concerning what was covered below by Superset. Quoted:
For second focal plane scopes, your POI will be different for the BDC/stadia lines but the center aiming point will be the same under different magnifications. So, zero at max magnification and know that your BDC will only be accurate that magnification. Also, most scopes have parallax setup at 100yds. Anything within that will have some parallax error. Try to use a consistent cheekweld as possible, whenever you're within 100yds to minimize it. Your zero distance will depend on you and how well you want it to align with your BDC/stadia lines. Nice? Am I hearing you say that you actually use a 1-4x scope at 2x or 3x settings for ranging, or even at 1x for ranging, at distance where the subtension accuracy matters? Please explain what conditions that might be. I just want to understand how one would need to use the reticle subtension on a 1-4x scope at any magnification below 4x. |
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That's exactly the point that was brought up. Apparently you missed it.
All I said was keep in mind that disadvantage, in the case that he wasn't aware of it. Which would be likely considering his initial question. How you are getting that I have said all of that is beyond me. Have a great day. |
| I zero at 50 yards at 4x. I then go down to 1x to confirm zero. I then shoot at various distances so I know my holdovers. I like the vortex pst reticle. When zeroed at 50, the bottom of the circle is great for shooting within 10 yards just like the eotech reticle. |
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That's exactly the point that was brought up. Apparently you missed it. All I said was keep in mind that disadvantage, in the case that he wasn't aware of it. Which would be likely considering his initial question. How you are getting that I have said all of that is beyond me. Have a great day. Didn't miss it at all. Crystal clear. Just can't imagine a scenario in which it would happen with a 1-4x scope. What situation would exist with a 1-4x scope where reticle ranging subtensions would be used except at 4x where they are accurate? That's why I asked. |
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When someone "new to the magnification game" attempts to do it... I don't see what you don't understand. Lmao! Oh, but I do understand. I'm 64 years old. I've been shooting since I was a teen. I reload and spend a lot of time at the range and in the field. I'm no expert, but this ain't my first rodeo on this issue. I have 32 long guns in my safe, a few more around the house or in my barn or workshop. All of the rifles wear some kind of optic, usually scopes, some FFP, some SFP. Most the latter. In all the decades that I've been hunting, or shooting, even when I was "new to the magnification game" I've never tried to estimate holdover with a scope at any power setting but maximum, nor have I seen anyone else do it. While it is theoretically possible for someone to attempt it, it is so counter intuitive as to be, frankly, absurd. Either the scope is all the way down for rapid close in or moving targets, or all the way up for long range work. Even my 6-24x50 target/varmint scope is used that way. You just don't even think: I think I'm going to take a 300 yard shot at 2x if you have more power. If the scope is sighted in properly, you don't even use ranging reticles until you reach that distance, because you have point blank hitting capability out to close to 300 with most modern centerfire cartridges at 2800-3,000 fps range.. There is only one instance in which I would ever use less than full magnification for a long shot in the field. That is approaching the legal limit of hunting time, approaching 30 minutes after sunset. If the objective lens is not large enough to give you a 5-6mm exit pupil at full magnification, you can sometimes get a slightly clearer image and make out more detail and contrast by dialing magnification back a little. For instance if a 3-9x50 scope is used, you have a theoretical exit pupil of (50 divided by 9) of 5.5mm, or just about optimal for most of us under those very dim lighting conditions. But, if the scope is 3-9x40mm, then the exit pupil at 9x is only 4.4mm. For most of us, dialing the magnification down to about 7x would give you a brighter and more sharply contrasting image. SFP subtensions would be off in that scenario if you needed to hold over. This is a very unusual condition and one an experienced shooter would handle in a different manner anyway (using the range DOPE for dialing in with the elevation turret rather than the reticle - making reticle accuracy irrelevant). But, in the example of OP's 1-4x scope, he is going to have at least a 5mm exit pupil at maximum magnification, perhaps a 6mm exit pupil if he has a 24mm objective rather than a 20. OP get a 1-4x20 or 1-4x24 with a second focal plane reticle that you can see in low light. You have to see both your target and your aiming point before you can take the shot. If you get a FFP scope, make sure the reticle is very visible down at 1x in low light. |
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Oh, but I do understand. I'm 64 years old. I've been shooting since I was a teen. I reload and spend a lot of time at the range and in the field. I'm no expert, but this ain't my first rodeo on this issue. I have 32 long guns in my safe, a few more around the house or in my barn or workshop. All of the rifles wear some kind of optic, usually scopes, some FFP, some SFP. Most the latter. In all the decades that I've been hunting, or shooting, even when I was "new to the magnification game" I've never tried to estimate holdover with a scope at any power setting but maximum, nor have I seen anyone else do it. While it is theoretically possible for someone to attempt it, it is so counter intuitive as to be, frankly, absurd. Either the scope is all the way down for rapid close in or moving targets, or all the way up for long range work. Even my 6-24x50 target/varmint scope is used that way. You just don't even think: I think I'm going to take a 300 yard shot at 2x if you have more power. If the scope is sighted in properly, you don't even use ranging reticles until you reach that distance, because you have point blank hitting capability out to close to 300 with most modern centerfire cartridges at 2800-3,000 fps range.. There is only one instance in which I would ever use less than full magnification for a long shot in the field. That is approaching the legal limit of hunting time, approaching 30 minutes after sunset. If the objective lens is not large enough to give you a 5-6mm exit pupil at full magnification, you can sometimes get a slightly clearer image and make out more detail and contrast by dialing magnification back a little. For instance if a 3-9x50 scope is used, you have a theoretical exit pupil of (50 divided by 9) of 5.5mm, or just about optimal for most of us under those very dim lighting conditions. But, if the scope is 3-9x40mm, then the exit pupil at 9x is only 4.4mm. For most of us, dialing the magnification down to about 7x would give you a brighter and more sharply contrasting image. SFP subtensions would be off in that scenario if you needed to hold over. This is a very unusual condition and one an experienced shooter would handle in a different manner anyway (using the range DOPE for dialing in with the elevation turret rather than the reticle - making reticle accuracy irrelevant). But, in the example of OP's 1-4x scope, he is going to have at least a 5mm exit pupil at maximum magnification, perhaps a 6mm exit pupil if he has a 24mm objective rather than a 20. OP get a 1-4x20 or 1-4x24 with a second focal plane reticle that you can see in low light. You have to see both your target and your aiming point before you can take the shot. If you get a FFP scope, make sure the reticle is very visible down at 1x in low light. Quoted:
Quoted:
When someone "new to the magnification game" attempts to do it... I don't see what you don't understand. Lmao! Oh, but I do understand. I'm 64 years old. I've been shooting since I was a teen. I reload and spend a lot of time at the range and in the field. I'm no expert, but this ain't my first rodeo on this issue. I have 32 long guns in my safe, a few more around the house or in my barn or workshop. All of the rifles wear some kind of optic, usually scopes, some FFP, some SFP. Most the latter. In all the decades that I've been hunting, or shooting, even when I was "new to the magnification game" I've never tried to estimate holdover with a scope at any power setting but maximum, nor have I seen anyone else do it. While it is theoretically possible for someone to attempt it, it is so counter intuitive as to be, frankly, absurd. Either the scope is all the way down for rapid close in or moving targets, or all the way up for long range work. Even my 6-24x50 target/varmint scope is used that way. You just don't even think: I think I'm going to take a 300 yard shot at 2x if you have more power. If the scope is sighted in properly, you don't even use ranging reticles until you reach that distance, because you have point blank hitting capability out to close to 300 with most modern centerfire cartridges at 2800-3,000 fps range.. There is only one instance in which I would ever use less than full magnification for a long shot in the field. That is approaching the legal limit of hunting time, approaching 30 minutes after sunset. If the objective lens is not large enough to give you a 5-6mm exit pupil at full magnification, you can sometimes get a slightly clearer image and make out more detail and contrast by dialing magnification back a little. For instance if a 3-9x50 scope is used, you have a theoretical exit pupil of (50 divided by 9) of 5.5mm, or just about optimal for most of us under those very dim lighting conditions. But, if the scope is 3-9x40mm, then the exit pupil at 9x is only 4.4mm. For most of us, dialing the magnification down to about 7x would give you a brighter and more sharply contrasting image. SFP subtensions would be off in that scenario if you needed to hold over. This is a very unusual condition and one an experienced shooter would handle in a different manner anyway (using the range DOPE for dialing in with the elevation turret rather than the reticle - making reticle accuracy irrelevant). But, in the example of OP's 1-4x scope, he is going to have at least a 5mm exit pupil at maximum magnification, perhaps a 6mm exit pupil if he has a 24mm objective rather than a 20. OP get a 1-4x20 or 1-4x24 with a second focal plane reticle that you can see in low light. You have to see both your target and your aiming point before you can take the shot. If you get a FFP scope, make sure the reticle is very visible down at 1x in low light. I guess this was really all i was asking. So i get where your coming from as the 1x and 4x are probably the only 2 settings i'll use. (why use 2.5x when you can zoom in more right). so that led to my question, if i were to zero in at 1x at 100 yards, would my point of impact be the same as 2x, 3x, aind 4x. If so then yes, 1x and 4x will most likely be all i use. If they were different POI, then that's where more questions would come in play that i have. From what i've read of the other post, it seems that mostly it should be the same POI no matter what magnification. Thanks! |
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I guess this was really all i was asking. So i get where your coming from as the 1x and 4x are probably the only 2 settings i'll use. (why use 2.5x when you can zoom in more right). so that led to my question, if i were to zero in at 1x at 100 yards, would my point of impact be the same as 2x, 3x, aind 4x. If so then yes, 1x and 4x will most likely be all i use. If they were different POI, then that's where more questions would come in play that i have. From what i've read of the other post, it seems that mostly it should be the same POI no matter what magnification. Thanks! Quoted:
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When someone "new to the magnification game" attempts to do it... I don't see what you don't understand. Lmao! Oh, but I do understand. I'm 64 years old. I've been shooting since I was a teen. I reload and spend a lot of time at the range and in the field. I'm no expert, but this ain't my first rodeo on this issue. I have 32 long guns in my safe, a few more around the house or in my barn or workshop. All of the rifles wear some kind of optic, usually scopes, some FFP, some SFP. Most the latter. In all the decades that I've been hunting, or shooting, even when I was "new to the magnification game" I've never tried to estimate holdover with a scope at any power setting but maximum, nor have I seen anyone else do it. While it is theoretically possible for someone to attempt it, it is so counter intuitive as to be, frankly, absurd. Either the scope is all the way down for rapid close in or moving targets, or all the way up for long range work. Even my 6-24x50 target/varmint scope is used that way. You just don't even think: I think I'm going to take a 300 yard shot at 2x if you have more power. If the scope is sighted in properly, you don't even use ranging reticles until you reach that distance, because you have point blank hitting capability out to close to 300 with most modern centerfire cartridges at 2800-3,000 fps range.. There is only one instance in which I would ever use less than full magnification for a long shot in the field. That is approaching the legal limit of hunting time, approaching 30 minutes after sunset. If the objective lens is not large enough to give you a 5-6mm exit pupil at full magnification, you can sometimes get a slightly clearer image and make out more detail and contrast by dialing magnification back a little. For instance if a 3-9x50 scope is used, you have a theoretical exit pupil of (50 divided by 9) of 5.5mm, or just about optimal for most of us under those very dim lighting conditions. But, if the scope is 3-9x40mm, then the exit pupil at 9x is only 4.4mm. For most of us, dialing the magnification down to about 7x would give you a brighter and more sharply contrasting image. SFP subtensions would be off in that scenario if you needed to hold over. This is a very unusual condition and one an experienced shooter would handle in a different manner anyway (using the range DOPE for dialing in with the elevation turret rather than the reticle - making reticle accuracy irrelevant). But, in the example of OP's 1-4x scope, he is going to have at least a 5mm exit pupil at maximum magnification, perhaps a 6mm exit pupil if he has a 24mm objective rather than a 20. OP get a 1-4x20 or 1-4x24 with a second focal plane reticle that you can see in low light. You have to see both your target and your aiming point before you can take the shot. If you get a FFP scope, make sure the reticle is very visible down at 1x in low light. I guess this was really all i was asking. So i get where your coming from as the 1x and 4x are probably the only 2 settings i'll use. (why use 2.5x when you can zoom in more right). so that led to my question, if i were to zero in at 1x at 100 yards, would my point of impact be the same as 2x, 3x, aind 4x. If so then yes, 1x and 4x will most likely be all i use. If they were different POI, then that's where more questions would come in play that i have. From what i've read of the other post, it seems that mostly it should be the same POI no matter what magnification. Thanks! Yes. if you buy a decent scope POI shift should not change more that one MOA anywhere in the zoom range. |
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