AR Sponsor
Posted: 3/17/2014 7:52:43 PM EDT
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So I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with my performance using MBUIS. I simply cannot tighten up my groups.
My groups today were about 1.5-2" under the following conditions: -25 yards -Seated -Resting AR on my range bag -Typical bulk ammo -Magpul backup iron sights I don't think my breathing or trigger control are the problem. I think the problem is my sight picture. When I concentrate on the front sight, the target is just a blobby mess. It seems nearly impossible to be precise. I'm hoping that it's not an eye problem (I do have 20/20, though). People always advise aiming at the exact same spot each time, but how is that possible when the target is so messed up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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Quoted:
So I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with my performance using MBUIS. I simply cannot tighten up my groups. My groups today were about 1.5-2" under the following conditions: -25 yards -Seated -Resting AR on my range bag -Typical bulk ammo -Magpul backup iron sights I don't think my breathing or trigger control are the problem. I think the problem is my sight picture. When I concentrate on the front sight, the target is just a blobby mess. It seems nearly impossible to be precise. I'm hoping that it's not an eye problem (I do have 20/20, though). People always advise aiming at the exact same spot each time, but how is that possible when the target is so messed up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. That's the way it's supposed to be. You can't focus on the target and front sight at the same time. How long have you been shooting? What's you're experience? A bit more info might help others help you out. |
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Quoted:
That's the way it's supposed to be. You can't focus on the target and front sight at the same time. How long have you been shooting? What's you're experience? A bit more info might help others help you out. Quoted:
Quoted:
So I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with my performance using MBUIS. I simply cannot tighten up my groups. My groups today were about 1.5-2" under the following conditions: -25 yards -Seated -Resting AR on my range bag -Typical bulk ammo -Magpul backup iron sights I don't think my breathing or trigger control are the problem. I think the problem is my sight picture. When I concentrate on the front sight, the target is just a blobby mess. It seems nearly impossible to be precise. I'm hoping that it's not an eye problem (I do have 20/20, though). People always advise aiming at the exact same spot each time, but how is that possible when the target is so messed up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. That's the way it's supposed to be. You can't focus on the target and front sight at the same time. How long have you been shooting? What's you're experience? A bit more info might help others help you out. I'm fairly new to shooting. Got into it about a year ago and have about 800 rounds through by AR. And while I realize that the target is supposed to be somewhat blurry, what I'm seeing is something that is super unfocused. It seems like it would be next to impossible to shoot MOA or less, even with PERFECT breathing and trigger control. |
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What are you using for a target? Sometimes, a too small target will make it more difficult to get a good sight pic. Try a relatively large black dot.........like 4"@25 yds and use a 6 o'clock hold. Maybe I should have first asked if you are just trying to see what kind of groups you can get, or if you have to be "on" at that distance.
a six o'clock hold will give you a better sight picture than a center hold, so you will be able to see what kind of groups you are getting. After you find what kind of groups you can get you can change your elevation for center of mass hold for what ever distance you want to be on at. |
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I'm fairly new to shooting. Got into it about a year ago and have about 800 rounds through by AR. And while I realize that the target is supposed to be somewhat blurry, what I'm seeing is something that is super unfocused. It seems like it would be next to impossible to shoot MOA or less, even with PERFECT breathing and trigger control. Ok, you're still extremely new to shooting, and more than likely, that's the problem. I'm willing to bet that breathing and trigger control are problems, but they can be overcome by shooting and practicing more. I knew several people in the Marines that had never fired a rifle in their lives until boot camp. Within a week they were able to hit targets at 500yds with iron sights with ease because they learned the fundamentals and how it apply them. Breathing, trigger control, sight picture, sight alignment, etc are all things that either come with time or professional instruction. Most of the time, it takes lots of both. It is hard to shoot MOA with irons, and those that do it have been shooting for years and years and have ten of thousands of rounds down range. You're not going to pick it up overnight, but you will get better the more you do it. |
| Stow, if there was a good way to mail them I;d send you a couple 200 yd NRA highpower targets. At that distance the bull is the right size for AR15 iron sights. (I'm not certain of the MBUIS peep or frt post size, but I'd bet they would look better at 200 yds than whatever you are using for a target at 25) Just went down and measured one and the bull is 12.5 inches............which is for 200 yds. |
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FM 3-22.9 helped me hone my rifle marksmanship ability. I use the 25 meter zero M4 targets when shooting out to said distance which has a (4cm) 1.574 inch circle at center mass which equals the average distance between a man's shoulders/chest being(48cm) 19 inches. The 25 meter zero target represents a person being 300 meters away when the paper target is placed 25 meters (82 ft) from where your shooting. Using the fundamentals taught in FM 3-22.9; and a M4 25 Meter Zeroing Target if your shooting with a 14.5" barrel, or a M16A2 25 Meter Zeroing Target if your using a 20" barrel will help bring in your groups. |
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Whats up with that link? My antivirus software just went ballistic. |
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Quoted: Whats up with that link? My antivirus software just went ballistic. Quoted: Whats up with that link? My antivirus software just went ballistic. The HTM page is on a .mil server, so I haven't a clue with your computer. |
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In defense of the OP:
I'm guessing you are using a Magpul MBUS rear aperture sight. They are pretty common sights to be found on over the counter guns because they are inexpensive. I have used aperture sights on big game rifles for years. Williams sights have been the standard windage & elevation adjustable "peep" sights on bolt action and lever action rifles. Never had a lick of trouble attaining a quick and clear sight picture with traditional Williams aperture sights. However, I found the MBUS AR sights difficult to see through. That small, shiny plastic aperture hole, and the thin, stamped flat blade with a hole punched through it are supposed to serve as a sighting system for long and short ranges. For my eyes, they created a fuzzy halo effect that blurred the center of the sight picture. Who wants a peep sight that comes pre-fogged? I replaced the MBUS that came stock on my AR15 with a Midwest Industries SPLP low profile rear aperture sight and the fuzzy halo phenomenon disappeared. With the SPLP I can shoot accurately at both long distances and short range with a quickly acquired, clear target. Flat-black steel or aluminum aperture sights with a deeper socket type aperture hole as found on the old Williams; MI SPLP; Troy Battle Sights, FAB Defense Israel RBS, etc., serve a greater purpose on the rifle than just being an inexpensive, disposable "back up" sight such as the MBUS. Sell it on ebay and buy a quality, folding rear aperture sight. Here's three good choices......... http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=173 http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-parts-and-upgrades/id-1426/rear-back-up-sight.html https://troyind.com/products/rear-folding-sight-blk Snug15 |
| .mil servers do that to antivirus software, you need a security certificate installed on your comp to avoid that. Best thing I can prescribe is what's called a dime washer drill. Lay in the prone unsupported position and get comfy, Then have a buddy place a dime or washer on top of the flash hider. Practice dry firing your rifle your trigger squeeze should NOT drop the dime/washer off the flash hider. You will have to charge the rifle each time you pull the trigger. Start by getting 10 in a row without dropping the dime, then move on to 20, 30 so on. If you can get 50 your set on your breathing and trigger squeeze. You will need an assistant to place the dime because you will probably drop it when you charge the rifle. This was the technique used by my drill sgts and what I use for new pvts who have shooting problems. Most of the zeroing issues with an AR/M4/M16 come down to the basic fundamentals. Breath control, sight picture trigger squeeze and steady position. Those are the four core areas to work on as a new shooter. Breath control comes with practice as does trigger squeeze, hence the "Dime/washer" drill, works on those two. Also make sure your Mbus is mounted as far back as possible to give you the longest possible sight radius, every little thing counts and it's essential your make sure your core fundamentals aren't the flaw. |
| If there is one in your area, I'd recommend attending a Project Appleseed shoot. You will learn a lot. It's one thing to research and try what you learned, it's another to have someone knowledgable coaching you and calling you out on your errors that you may be making. |
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25 yards is a little close. I typically zero a new rifle at that distance and then move out to 100 yards.
I'm curious as to the aperture size of magbul mbuis though. Aperture size is directly related to your depth of field. The smaller the hole your eye peers through, the better you are able to focus on objects both near and far. The hazard of smaller and smaller apertures is the reduced light available as you decrease the diameter of the peep. This makes your target difficult to see in lower light settings. One thing not discussed enough is your ammo selection. What brand is it? Is it quality? If you combine a new shooter with poor ammo then I can assure you much frustration as you try and evaluate what you have learned all the while the ammo is adding another variable that is inconsistent. 1 ensure your using the small aperture. 2 focus on the front sight as you were taught. 3 use quality ammo 4 choose a target that has good contrast. A target with a center that has good contrast will allow you to focus on the bullseye. For example a small red bullseye on a black target is small enough that you can center the blurry red dot in the center of the front sight. This becomes fairly easy if you put these targets at 100 yards. The high contrast center would appear much smaller due to the distance. It would be like putting a fuzzy red dot above an i . Finally don't worry about shooting smaller and smaller groups. If you can pull off fist sized groups at 100 yards then you are shooting steady enough to hit man sized targets out to 300, and possibly 400 yards. All you would need to complete that eventual task is knowledge of bullet drop and or holdovers. Good luck! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted:
Whats up with that link? My antivirus software just went ballistic. Quoted:
Whats up with that link? My antivirus software just went ballistic. .mil pages almost always have certificate issues. It's just one of those things. |
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Quoted:
I'm fairly new to shooting. Got into it about a year ago and have about 800 rounds through by AR. And while I realize that the target is supposed to be somewhat blurry, what I'm seeing is something that is super unfocused. It seems like it would be next to impossible to shoot MOA or less, even with PERFECT breathing and trigger control. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with my performance using MBUIS. I simply cannot tighten up my groups. My groups today were about 1.5-2" under the following conditions: -25 yards -Seated -Resting AR on my range bag -Typical bulk ammo -Magpul backup iron sights I don't think my breathing or trigger control are the problem. I think the problem is my sight picture. When I concentrate on the front sight, the target is just a blobby mess. It seems nearly impossible to be precise. I'm hoping that it's not an eye problem (I do have 20/20, though). People always advise aiming at the exact same spot each time, but how is that possible when the target is so messed up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. That's the way it's supposed to be. You can't focus on the target and front sight at the same time. How long have you been shooting? What's you're experience? A bit more info might help others help you out. I'm fairly new to shooting. Got into it about a year ago and have about 800 rounds through by AR. And while I realize that the target is supposed to be somewhat blurry, what I'm seeing is something that is super unfocused. It seems like it would be next to impossible to shoot MOA or less, even with PERFECT breathing and trigger control. You will not get MOA at 25 yards using just irons, unless your eye is multifunctional and can zoom. |
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I think the group size is typical of what most good back up folding aperture sights will do. Four inches at 100 yards is good.
I've shot a lot of different aperture or "peep" sights. I like the Williams rear and the Lyman "Globe" type target sight on single shot or bolt guns. But, truth be told, you will not be able to use such fine sights on a rifle under the conditions in which a back up sight is needed. On hunting bolt rifles or single shots I actually unscrew the rear aperture and just use the ring. This is called a "ghost ring sight". it is very fast, as intended. That hole is even larger than the largest of the two opening on the Magpul BUS. Your eye automatically centers the tip of the front sight blade in the center of the rear aperture anyway. You lose a little precision, but you get very fast acquisition. That is what you want. You are doing the right thing by focusing solely on the front sight. The aperture should be either invisible or just a fuzzy blur. The target will not be in sharp focus. That's just the way our eyes work Anything under 6" at 100 yards is acceptable with back up sights in my book. If you want better than that, get a RDS or a scope where the target and your sighting point will be in the same plane. |
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Quoted:
So I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with my performance using MBUIS. I simply cannot tighten up my groups. I don't think my breathing or trigger control are the problem. I think the problem is my sight picture. When I concentrate on the front sight, the target is just a blobby mess. It seems nearly impossible to be precise. I'm hoping that it's not an eye problem (I do have 20/20, though). People always advise aiming at the exact same spot each time, but how is that possible when the target is so messed up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Assuming you have a dead consistent cheek weld and eye position, and you are shooting a Free Float handguard which is on the bag. Aim small and miss small - shoot a small black target on a large light background. For zeroing I use either a 3" paster on a grid at 25 yards or a 3 or 6" at 50... Try shooting with a 6 o'clock hold. Which is described here at that 3" paster at 25 yards. I find that the small target and 6 hold make it very easy to put the sight in the same location. When you get more confident/used to irons you can adjust to a POI/POA hold, but I generally go back to a 6 oclock hold whenever I am zeroing sights if they have precision adjustment or if I want to print a very small group and don't mind it being 'low' on the paper. |
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FM 3-22.9 helped me hone my rifle marksmanship ability. I use the 25 meter zero M4 targets when shooting out to said distance which has a (4cm) 1.574 inch circle at center mass which equals the average distance between a man's shoulders/chest being(48cm) 19 inches. The 25 meter zero target represents a person being 300 meters away when the paper target is placed 25 meters (82 ft) from where your shooting. Using the fundamentals taught in FM 3-22.9; and a M4 25 Meter Zeroing Target if your shooting with a 14.5" barrel, or a M16A2 25 Meter Zeroing Target if your using a 20" barrel will help bring in your groups. I see that the M4 zero target is good for 25m. Suggestions for a good target for 50M and 100M? I think I may be using the wrong target (too small). I am speaking of iron. For optic (red-dot w/o magnifier) I assume I would use the same target size as irons? Now, what targets in 25,50 and 100 for a scoped set-up? Just curious. |
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Well I'm really trying to nail down the fundamentals. Based on the research I've done online, an okay group would be about 3-4" at 100 yards. Quoted:
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That's basically a pie plate at 100 yards. Do you need more accuracy than that out of back up sights? Well I'm really trying to nail down the fundamentals. Based on the research I've done online, an okay group would be about 3-4" at 100 yards. Makes sense. Your target should be blurry and your front sight post should be crystal clear. This will take some adjustment for your eyes so don't go expecting tight groupings right away. Secondly, I would venture to say that you are probably flinching and don't realize it. It takes a while, that's all. There are a lot of fine mechanics to worry about, focus on your breathing et al. Mostly, your back up sight is just that - a back up sight that isn't iron. Are you shooting through the combat/night sight or the peephole? Always use the peephole when trying to get a z and for anything beyond about 100yds. What you need to do is get rid of that magpul pos, get something metal and pick up an optic. I can't talk though, my 300 blackout pistol build from October still has only the MI BUIS but I get solid groups at 100. I, obviously, have much more shooting experience than yourself though. You won't turn into a Carlos Hathcock overnight, brother. Learn something from every shot fired, take your time at first. Maybe set up a camera on a bipod and watch yourself if you don't have someone knowledgeable out there with you to give you pointers. Prone can be done wrong too. Lol. My birthday twin and good buddies mother is dating a tacticool mall ninja. I don't blow him out of the water because it is too funny. I've never seen anyone claim to be such a great shot then get on my 700 shooting at 100yds (my dead nuts z) with his back curved 45 right and his elbow touching his knee. It was like a half chicken wing met the fetal position and committed suicide. He also believe IDF is some bad mofos' but I digress. There is a whole lot of synchronization within your body that needs to happen before you come out a sub moa shooter, it takes time and lots of money as it is developed my building good habits, breaking the bad ones and developing the muscle memory so you may actively think about what's at hand and not the mechanics or motions of your body. |
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In defense of the OP: I'm guessing you are using a Magpul MBUS rear aperture sight. They are pretty common sights to be found on over the counter guns because they are inexpensive. I have used aperture sights on big game rifles for years. Williams sights have been the standard windage & elevation adjustable "peep" sights on bolt action and lever action rifles. Never had a lick of trouble attaining a quick and clear sight picture with traditional Williams aperture sights. However, I found the MBUS AR sights difficult to see through. That small, shiny plastic aperture hole, and the thin, stamped flat blade with a hole punched through it are supposed to serve as a sighting system for long and short ranges. For my eyes, they created a fuzzy halo effect that blurred the center of the sight picture. Who wants a peep sight that comes pre-fogged? I replaced the MBUS that came stock on my AR15 with a Midwest Industries SPLP low profile rear aperture sight and the fuzzy halo phenomenon disappeared. With the SPLP I can shoot accurately at both long distances and short range with a quickly acquired, clear target. Flat-black steel or aluminum aperture sights with a deeper socket type aperture hole as found on the old Williams; MI SPLP; Troy Battle Sights, FAB Defense Israel RBS, etc., serve a greater purpose on the rifle than just being an inexpensive, disposable "back up" sight such as the MBUS. Sell it on ebay and buy a quality, folding rear aperture sight. Here's three good choices......... http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=173 http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-parts-and-upgrades/id-1426/rear-back-up-sight.html https://troyind.com/products/rear-folding-sight-blk Snug15 That is exactly what I have, Same Plane Low Profile and I can't speak highly enough about them. Honestly Magpul needs to stick to mags but I know how many ARFCOMMERS around here strongly encourage trusting one's life to plastic. They'll certainly do fine for now but going forward I'd certainly look into some of the better options that exist. Practice, practice, practice. 
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