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Posted: 5/5/2013 4:02:46 PM EDT
| I have an Aimpoint 2MOA red dot at the moment on my AR and was thinking about getting the 3x Aimpoint magnifier as well. Combo with mount seems to be about $650. However, the main opinion at work seems to be ACOG all the way, and spend the extra $600. I am primarily a 100 yard ish bench shooter but may eventually use the weapon for home defense, etc. Any experience/suggestions either way on the magnifier vs ACOG? Never used magnified optics either way |
| I have owned several magnifiers (both EOTech and Aimpoint) and am not a huge fan. They are somewhat constricting when it comes to the view. The ACOG is a far better optic IMO but if you are just going to shoot from a bench at a known distance, it is somewhat pointless to have. |
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I had an Aimpoint magnifier for my T-1. Only used it a couple times and didn't like it. If you don't have perfect vision the magnification can exacerbate streaking of the red dot, which is what happened with me. My vision is decent, and there's no deformation of a red dot until I magnify it.
I now have an ACOG as my primary's optic. Absolutely love it. But if I was looking for a "bench" optic I'd just get a standard style scope. For a home defense rifle I'd absolutely use a red dot, not an ACOG. |
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Between the two, I prefer and use an Eotech 553/3x magnifier combo. I had the choice of an ACOG or the Eotech/magnifier combo, and I chose the later. My reasoning, is that we've engaged well within 15 meters to well over 400 meters. The close engagements were while patrolling villages. The longer engagements were when we were already established inside a village. I wanted the the speed advantage of the Eotech for close range, while having somewhat of a magnification for longer range and PID. This set up definitely favors closer targets. However, I'm willing to compromise a little on further targets because, to me, the enemy inside of 25 meters poses a much greater and immediate threat than an enemy at 450 meters.
I am currently waiting for a Leupold Mark 6 1-6x scope. I'm hoping that this scope will give me a better longer range capability while still not compromising too much on speed for close engagements. On paper, low power variable scopes really seem the way to go for versatility without having to make too many sacrafices. Of course, I'm going to give myself a little time to train and work with the scope on the close in/speed shooting to really give it a chance and figure out its quirks. |
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I use a eotech and a magnifier for my home defense rifle. I like the ability to have the 1x and flip to the 3x at a whim. I actually use my rifle in home defense alot because of where I live and the
ammount of criminal tresspassers that are looking for a ride to Houston (our borders are not secure, I have seen Albanians, Peruvians, El Salvadorans, Chinese, and countless other illegals in recent weeks). I shoot it out to 500 yards consistently its a fun challenge more so than shooting a variable scope. At 100 yards it is more than accurate enough .5 MOA with the magnifier and 1.5 moa without the magnifier. |
| Never used an EOTech (or any other red dot sight) with magnifier so can't speak to that but with practice you can acquire a close-range target with an ACOG just about as fast as you can with a red dot. Keep an eye out on the EE and GunBroker, I just picked up an ACOG for $725 on the EE. |
| Two different optics for two different needs. IMHO the Eotech is the best optic for CQB work, and I feel my ACOG is the best optic for 0-400 yards for quick ID and shot placemnet for dinner plate accuracy. The use of a magnifier tries to make the Eoteh or Aimpoint equal to the ACOG, but it simply takes up way to much rail spac and weighs an awful lot. Everyone I know who has bought a magnifier for their red dot has since sold it. I traded my 512 and Eotech magnifier straight across for a NIB TA31RCO and I have never looked back. YMMV???? |
| I would go for the Primary Arms magnifier and be done with it. A little over $220 with a good flip to the side mount. PA 3X |
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I was late to warm to the RDS + magnifier combination, and went through RDS only, ACOG only, ACOG + MRD, and 1-4x before warming to them.
Overall, I think that the 1-4x is still the best for a full-spectrum of operations. A 1-4x is a true "generalist" sight, giving you the ability to do everything "pretty well" in a changing environment with uncertain conditions. However, the RDS+3x has a role as well. In situations where close combat is likely, the 3x magnifier gives you the option of magnification so that you can extend your range if necessary and improve identification without sacrificing the inherent benefits of a true, reduced parallax reflex sight. I think in an honest assessment, for a "civilian pure," and possibly for most law enforcement, the RDS+3x is likely the best setup. The nature of most "HD" and law enforcement actions will be close range engagements, while some have the potential for ranged engagement under extraordinary circumstances - they are not probable, even within the already low probability of any type of engagement at all. Simply put - most civilians and law enforcement will never use their rifles in a "live fire" scenario, and of those that do most will be within 25m. Probably closer to 10m. Liability alone probably dictates that form of engagement profile. This kind of engagement is best suited to an RDS. However, there exists the possibility for some of ranged engagements - and, many simply enjoy shooting further out than that, and would like some magnification to do so. A 3x magnifier allows for the best compromise based on matching capabilities and muscle memory to the most likely threat profile. Now, understand, I'm not criticizing anyone's setups - but here is the difference between a weapon configured for home defense or LE duty use, and one that can be used for home defense or LE duty use. Some people just like shooting at 200-300 yards recreationally, and that same weapon can be used for HD or LE applications as well. If you want a rifle capable of shooting 300 yards plus and like using a 4x32 ACOG, and can train to use it as an HD or LE weapon, it will likely serve you well. A couple of notes: An RDS+3x is inherently a compromise in terms of ranged solutions. It is unquestionably a close combat focused setup with the ability to reach out, but not as effectively as a magnified combat optic. In my opinion, QD is more important than FTS. There's not much reason to have the magnifier hanging off the weapon at all times when you're primarily using the RDS. Both is great, because it gives you another option. But if you can only have one - choose QD. Don't cheap out on the magnifier just because you think it's a simple contraption. Durability and CS aside - quality construction and materials are exceedingly important for a satisfying magnifier. As I said, they are inherently a compromise. Even the best will have poor light transmission and clarity, and poor field of view when magnified. El-cheapo magnifiers will only exacerbate these problems. Good glass is not cheap. Fact of life, sorry. Your ability to appreciate certain sight setups will depend heavily on the type of sustainment training you do. Different training programs and focuses will favor different sighting setups. Should be obvious... but if it was, there wouldn't be as much "no, this is the best optic!" going around. This is not an indictment of any particular poster, just sharing my thoughts on the matter overall. I use both RDS+3x and 1-4x optics setups, and they both have their place in my "line up." ~Augee |
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This debate probably won't end to be honest. I think it comes down to budget. If money isn't an issue, I have found that an ACOG with a RDS side mount is a pretty great way to go.
If you can't have both, then it's personal preference. I know guys who will swear by shooting 200yds with a 3x, and I know guys who can use the ACOG like a RDS. I'd try to check both out before buying if I were you. |
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Had to chime in again. An RDS is a great optic for CQB work. I myself prefer the Eotech's especially the newer EXPS2 that I have on my carbine. A RDS can be used accurately for human sized targets out to 100 yards for the average shooter. Taking this into consideration the HD rifle is not likely going to benefit from a magnifier. If you shoot someone past 15 to 20 yards you are more than likely going to be in trouble yourself. So unless you are one of the lucky few who live on a large ranch and can use a rifle with both CQB optics as well as magnification for further out targets, namely game sized targets. I can't see why you need a rifle with this many gadgets on it. Yeah they look cool, and I think that has a lot to do with much of it, but practical it isn't. I am guilty myself, had my 512 and Eotech 3x with FTS mount, but as I said it was to bulky and to much weight to handle quickly. Everyone I know that has gone this route has all ended up with two rifles, or two different optics to be used at different times.
If you want a magnifier to throw on when hunting critters and remove when you get home for the HD role, there is nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that a scenario where you would need the RDS unmagnified and in the same scenario also need a 3 power magnifier is extremely unlikely and rare. I can't even think of one that is likely to happen. I have a midlength carbine decked out with my Eotech EXPS2 for the job of HD ( I have a decent size piece of property) for huntin critters and longer shots I have my 20" Colt HBAR decked out with my TA31RCO and it works awesome out to 200 plus yards. Hard to get longer shots around these parts and my eyes are jacked up from Diabetes. I am not trying to tell someone how to setup their rifle. That isn't my place, or anyone else's. I am simply trying to help those with less expierence from making the same errors that I have in the past. If having all that gear on top of your rifle works for you, that's great. My comments above are for civie users, when talking about the use of a rifle for battle the likelyhood of needing both pieces of gear in the same scenario goes up a bit. If you are one of the rare folks who think you ned both I would seriously consider a RDS that piggybacks a ACOG or one that mounts at a 45 degree angle to one. This is much more practical than the two Eotech units. Maybe it will help someone. |
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Had to chime in again. An RDS is a great optic for CQB work. I myself prefer the Eotech's especially the newer EXPS2 that I have on my carbine. A RDS can be used accurately for human sized targets out to 100 yards for the average shooter. Taking this into consideration the HD rifle is not likely going to benefit from a magnifier. If you shoot someone past 15 to 20 yards you are more than likely going to be in trouble yourself. So unless you are one of the lucky few who live on a large ranch and can use a rifle with both CQB optics as well as magnification for further out targets, namely game sized targets. I can't see why you need a rifle with this many gadgets on it. Yeah they look cool, and I think that has a lot to do with much of it, but practical it isn't. I am guilty myself, had my 512 and Eotech 3x with FTS mount, but as I said it was to bulky and to much weight to handle quickly. Everyone I know that has gone this route has all ended up with two rifles, or two different optics to be used at different times. If you want a magnifier to throw on when hunting critters and remove when you get home for the HD role, there is nothing wrong with that. What I am saying is that a scenario where you would need the RDS unmagnified and in the same scenario also need a 3 power magnifier is extremely unlikely and rare. I can't even think of one that is likely to happen. I have a midlength carbine decked out with my Eotech EXPS2 for the job of HD ( I have a decent size piece of property) for huntin critters and longer shots I have my 20" Colt HBAR decked out with my TA31RCO and it works awesome out to 200 plus yards. Hard to get longer shots around these parts and my eyes are jacked up from Diabetes. I am not trying to tell someone how to setup their rifle. That isn't my place, or anyone else's. I am simply trying to help those with less expierence from making the same errors that I have in the past. If having all that gear on top of your rifle works for you, that's great. My comments above are for civie users, when talking about the use of a rifle for battle the likelyhood of needing both pieces of gear in the same scenario goes up a bit. If you are one of the rare folks who think you ned both I would seriously consider a RDS that piggybacks a ACOG or one that mounts at a 45 degree angle to one. This is much more practical than the two Eotech units. Maybe it will help someone. I see what you're saying, but the magnifier is definitely a cheaper option than a second rifle with a second nice optic. I have one on my AR, which does serve a dual purpose of hunting and defense. A 16" rifle with an Eotech and a magnifier can push out to 300+ fairly easily while at the same time not being too big and bulky to use for HD. Anything further is really kind of impractical for hunting or defense with this round. Having both magnified and unmagnified when hog hunting does really come in handy, though, as some days may consist of shooting out of a stand and the magnification can come in handy, while others I may be stalking and come up on several at once, and some days may have both. Point being it's a pretty good solution at just over half the cost of an ACOG and a piggyback and you use the same consistent cheekweld rather than having to find the dot piggybacked on the ACOG. For someone who does most of their shooting up close (or is primarily concerned with close range defense encounters) and wants the ability to occasionally reach out longer without having to dump a bunch of money into a second rifle, it's a great solution. If I had a 7.62 heavy or something in addition that I could reach out a little further with, I'd probably run a variable scope with an offset red dot and relegate my AR to close range work only, but I'm looking at a considerably larger investment there |
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You can't rely on internet opinions.
You really need to look through both and see what you like. For ME the Bindin Aiming Concept does NOT work so I would never get an ACOG unless I had a backup reflex or the 45 deg offset irons to use for close range. Unless I looked through some different optics I may have spent a lot of money on something that doesn't suit ME (who cares if it suits a bunch of guys on the internet...). Same thing with Aimpoint v. Eotech. A lot of info on the internet skewed in favor of Aimpoints but sight picture on Eotech is MUCH better for me. I think the red dot with flip to side mag is perfect combination for the vast majority of actual/potential needs in a carbine.... Your experience and preference may be the exact opposite. 
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| Thanks for all the input guys, lots to think about :) Right now, I have an AR-15 with the red dot that I'm looking to use mostly bench but might be in the home defense part of the safe as well, but I'll also have my AR-10 to outfit with optics soon as well. I'm not sure if an ACOG would be a good fit for it, or whether stick with a scope for it. I do love the red dot, and since I already have $600 invested in it, that's why I was thinking magnifier. I've only briefly looked through ACOGs and Magnifiers, the ACOG aiming concept does seem a bit strange/unusual/difficult but I hear that improves with training. They are absolutely gorgeous though. Two rifles, three optic choices :O |
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Just saying as an FYSA... but remember how I was talking about an ideal magnifier mount being both QD and FTS, with QD being more important...?
Check out the new Wilcox magnifier mount that TNVC just posted in the New Products forum... basically - at a glance - the perfect mount. ~Augee |
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i have an aimpoint micro 2moa as well and a primary arms 3x LER magnifier and american defense swing away mount. i primarily use my AR at the range, and prefer using a variable power scope. mine's a nikon m223 4-16x. they are all on american defense QD mounts so they are easy to swap out, but if you are planning on mainly using the carbine as a paper puncher, like I do, then a scope is your best bet.
the aimpoint/magnifier stays in my case, just in case. i did end up loaning it to a buddy who hasn't gotten his irons yet for his new upper a few range sessions ago. i do have a 2nd AR that i don't use (same upper config as the one i beat on) and haven't even bothered mounting the RDS setup on it. my primary HD is my benelli pump shotgun. |
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btw the reason i bought a magnifier for the aimpoint in the first place was to be able to be effective at 100 yards. the magnifier is good enough for 50 yards, but 3x is not enough to see at 100 yards, especially if you're trying to get good groups. ...whut...? ~Augee |
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btw the reason i bought a magnifier for the aimpoint in the first place was to be able to be effective at 100 yards. the magnifier is good enough for 50 yards, but 3x is not enough to see at 100 yards, especially if you're trying to get good groups. strongly disagree |
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btw the reason i bought a magnifier for the aimpoint in the first place was to be able to be effective at 100 yards. the magnifier is good enough for 50 yards, but 3x is not enough to see at 100 yards, especially if you're trying to get good groups. ...whut...? ~Augee 
I think WAAAAY too many people are trying to make RDS into bench optics. Using the wrong type of targets, or having the wrong expectations, or not understanding what combat optics (ACOGs, EoTechs, Aimpoints, etc...) are built for. RDS are not for chasing groups. Neither are ACOG or RDS/magnifier combos. They're for effectively placing fire onto a human sized target at various ranges. ACOGs can be minute of man out to 800 yards easy with some practice. I know guys in my unit have done Army shooting courses where they did this no problem. RDS are for putting effective fire on a human for as far as the eye can see them. I don't get this notion of only being useful for 50, 100, or even 300 in. AARs from courses over on LF have guys using them up to 600m. Are they optimal for it? No, but that's not a trick shot and entirely doable. If you want a combat optic, get one. But don't expect it to be the best tool for bench shooting and group chasing. If that's what you want go find a traditional style scope. |
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btw the reason i bought a magnifier for the aimpoint in the first place was to be able to be effective at 100 yards. the magnifier is good enough for 50 yards, but 3x is not enough to see at 100 yards, especially if you're trying to get good groups. ...whut...? ~Augee
I think WAAAAY too many people are trying to make RDS into bench optics. Using the wrong type of targets, or having the wrong expectations, or not understanding what combat optics (ACOGs, EoTechs, Aimpoints, etc...) are built for. RDS are not for chasing groups. Neither are ACOG or RDS/magnifier combos. They're for effectively placing fire onto a human sized target at various ranges. ACOGs can be minute of man out to 800 yards easy with some practice. I know guys in my unit have done Army shooting courses where they did this no problem. RDS are for putting effective fire on a human for as far as the eye can see them. I don't get this notion of only being useful for 50, 100, or even 300 in. AARs from courses over on LF have guys using them up to 600m. Are they optimal for it? No, but that's not a trick shot and entirely doable. If you want a combat optic, get one. But don't expect it to be the best tool for bench shooting and group chasing. If that's what you want go find a traditional style scope. exactly i'm not doing any combat right now so the RDS/mag is not even mounted on anything. the OP seems to just want to have fun punching paper at the range, and his best bet would be to go with a scope. i have no desire to mount my RDS on any of my ARs unless its primary purpose is for HD, or taking a carbine class. OP, it's more fun to shoot at your target when you can actually SEE your target. |
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For HD no contest...you already have the best optic IMHO, an Aimpoint. An Aimpoint (or Eotech) is at its best when things are most critical; up close, in the dark, under stress from probably an awkward position.
Further, for only one rifle/one optic, I'd still choose an Aimpoint. They are good for torso hits to 300m no problem as evidenced by the US Army seeing qual scores improve with them over irons at 50-300m. For a second rifle, ACOGs are outstanding 25-400m general purpose optics. I personally don't like them close in and in the dark. With the weapon light off, you can see the tritium reticule but not the target. With the weapon light on, it washes out the tritium, but isn't enough light for the fiber to kick in. Can be done with practice, but it is harder and you need a good cheekweld. I would suggest getting a less expensive magnifier to play with, keeping the Aimpoint you already have as primary. |
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I have a ta31RCO and i love it but if you're using it for home defense then stay with the aimpoint. If you need that extra magnification, then ditch the magnifier combo and swap the acog for longer range shooting. Magnifiers can run about 500ish, i've seen acogs sell for 700-800$ on EE in used condition. You might as well experience the acog as an ar shooter and if you dont like it, sell it back into the market.
I had a magnifier set up with the comp m4 and an eotech but i hated it. Larue makes really nice quick release mounts to hold your zero when switching optics (i have the lt100 with my acog). Put the red dot back on when it's by your bedside though. I've used the acog in very low and dark settings and the advantage is clearly towards the aimpoint. However ,as a general purpose/battle optic, the acog is amazing |
| RDO is the best optic for 0-50. ACOG is better at 50-400. RDO +3X is almost as good as ACOG at 50-400 , assuming your eyes are good, no astigmatism etc. A good quality 1-4X or 1-6X variable probably the best all around but size and weight favor a T1 unless you know you will have longer shots or small targets ie 3gun or you live on a large ranch etc. I have an RDO, a 3X mag, and a 1-6X all on GQ mounts. |
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OP:
I have ACOG with RMR and canted iron sights. You really only need the ACOG but you have to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE for CQB (like inside house with small rooms). Having a laser trainer kicks butt for regular folks that want to practice a lot like this. I have RMR setup for close to 25 YDS and really for close up stuff I would use the red dot - particularly because navigating around inside house with 16" AR does not make it easy for check weld anyway. In fact, for in-home CQB, I keep the stock collapsed, too, and use RMR red dot. The canted iron sights probably work as good or even better close up, but having an illuminated dot inside house that can be dark is a big plus. So far, the farthest I have shot with ACOG is 385M. Was *easily* able to hit "head" size steel at 385M with 4xACOG. I actually didn't believe it until I did it myself. ACOG's are not meant to shoot penny's at 100 yds.. the real issue I have found is that the reticle covers tiny dots on targets at certain distances (100M to 200M you can use top of chevron to aim, but closer distances you are "inside" reticle). SO.... IMO, the bottom line is that if you can only afford one sight, and want to have it at ready on rifle at all times, IMHO the ACOG is the absolute best choice (w/RMR preferrably). Best of luck! |
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