AR Sponsor
Posted: 11/13/2010 5:27:00 PM EDT
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I took my AR build out the other day, and I got about 2" groupings at 50 yards (using rest). This was with open sights (Daniel Defense A1.5 set w/XS same plane aperature and A2 post). The sight radius measures 15". I am going to be taking this gun deer hunting next week (using blind). I guess my questions are: 1) is this normal accuracy or would this be considered deficent? 2) what is the maximum range that an "average" AR15 shooter can hit a 6" target? I understand the second question is really hard to answer, but I'm trying to see what my limitations are. I haven't shot at 100 yards yet, and I might not get a chance to shoot it again before I head up north to hunt. Mike EDIT: specs on upper: - BCM light-weight middy - 13" TRX Extreme Rail - Daniel Defense A1.5 sights with XS same plane aperature and A2 post (15" sight radius) |
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IMO that is not great, but it's not horrible either. I think you are on the right track. Remember, they are designed to reliably hit man-sized targets (generally 18" across) at hundreds of yards so you could probably do that no problem at the rate you are shooting. You will need to experiment with different ammo to find the exact load your gun likes the best. Plus optics will significantly improve your accuracy also. Good luck. 4073 |
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Quoted: IMO that is not great, but it's not horrible either. I think you are on the right track. Remember, they are designed to reliably hit man-sized targets (generally 18" across) at hundreds of yards so you could probably do that no problem at the rate you are shooting. You will need to experiment with different ammo to find the exact load your gun likes the best. Plus optics will significantly improve your accuracy also. Good luck. 4073 Thanks! After I graduate school I will be able to get an optic, but until then I'm not going to get an optic lol. I ordered a full set of KNS front sight posts and after deer hunting I'm going to try them out and see which ones I like the best. I want a front sight post that will be good for home defense/CQC but that will offer me better accuracy than the stock A2 post. |
One of the smallest 10-shot groups that I've fired at 50 yards using the standard A2 front sight post and rear aperture had an extreme spread of 0.825" (1.576 MOA). High Power shooters using narrower front sight posts and smaller diameter rear sight apertures can do significantly better.
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Quoted:
One of the smallest 10-shot groups that I've fired at 50 yards using the standard A2 front sight post and rear aperture had an extreme spread of 0.825" (1.576 MOA). High Power shooters using narrower front sight posts and smaller diameter rear sight apertures can do significantly better. http://www.box.net/shared/static/tkx89mi1st.jpg I've had similar results as this with my DMPS M4. 2" isn't bad but as said before it wasn't meant to shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards with irons. Shit you can barely see a target at 100 yards with irons 
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I was under the impression that the .223/5.56 is below marginal for deer hunting. Has that been updated? That is a hotly debated topic. There are some excellent .223 projectiles out there that work just fine on deer. Check out the hunting forum to see lots of .223 deer hunters. Quoted:
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IMO that is not great, but it's not horrible either. I think you are on the right track. Remember, they are designed to reliably hit man-sized targets (generally 18" across) at hundreds of yards so you could probably do that no problem at the rate you are shooting. You will need to experiment with different ammo to find the exact load your gun likes the best. Plus optics will significantly improve your accuracy also. Good luck. 4073 Thanks! After I graduate school I will be able to get an optic, but until then I'm not going to get an optic lol. I ordered a full set of KNS front sight posts and after deer hunting I'm going to try them out and see which ones I like the best. I want a front sight post that will be good for home defense/CQC but that will offer me better accuracy than the stock A2 post. Keep in mind that hunting is very different from shooting a clean target from a bench. A small front sight post might help with tiny groups at the range but could easily disappear in poor lighting conditions in the woods... I'd say your 2" group isn't stellar but I've seen far worse. Try getting off the bench and shooting from realistic positions to get a better idea of how accurate you will be. You may have better luck with a smaller rear aperture though. You might also consider taking a marksmanship fundamentals class like Appleseed. Its a great way to learn(or re-learn for some) the basic fundamentals of good marksmanship. You may be surprised with how accurate you can be plain old iron sights. |
| Power point is a good load you will do ok as long as you place your shot correctly, that is the biggie in hunting. Some say its not good enough for deer but where I live we can use a 40 caliber round ball in a muzzle loader for deer, tell what the difference is between this and a 410 slug which was just legalized a couple of years ago, SHOT PLACEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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I have shot High Power for few years and believe me, iron sights are greatly under rated here.
I recently built the rifle below, a Bushy lower with a Jewel Trigger, CMT upper, Bushy A2 carry handle, BCM BCG with a Bushy 1/7 Govt. profile barrel. 
Shooting Federal 55 grain FMJ .223 at a 100 yard military target, I shot 20 rounds. 14 were in the x and/or 10 ring and 6 were in the 9 ring. This was quite informal with off the shelf FMJ ammo though I did was a sand bag. Considering the 10 ring is 3.25 inches, the entire group was 3.5 inches at 100 yards, not too bad for having fun. Your group would extrapolate to around 4 inches at 100 yards. Your choice of ammo will be another very important factor. Bill |
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I will be using Winchester 64gr Power-Point bullets for deer. I realise it is marginal, however the AR is the only centerfire rifle I currently own.
How much are the appleseed shoots? Join the Army and its free! 
Appleseed is an EXCELLENT way to improve with iron sights. More information specific to your area is available here: http://appleseedinfo.org/ |
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I was under the impression that the .223/5.56 is below marginal for deer hunting. Has that been updated? there is nothing to update . deer are thin skinned game with more weighing less than 200lbs than more . any good expanding bullet will do the trick but you have to use your rifle within its perimeters , accuracy and the limits of the bullet design should dictate the maximum range. |
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dude, you could buy one of those deer targets like the bowhunters use. You know, the big plastic ones with the removable innards. Find an acceptable range area that will allow you to set it up at your intended hunting ranges. Use your desired hunting rounds and use it as a live fire testing scenario. You can test yourself and determine if you can actually hit the vital areas with your rifle setup. You actually do need to test with the actual ammo your gonna be hunting with. It may be a touch spendy but better in the long run. I always sight my hunting rifle with my hunting ammo. If I am out plinking that is when I shoot the cheap crap ammo. That said if I am doing an initial sight-in I will use cheap fodder to get on paper...but this thread aint about that. Practice makes perfect and you can always use a 22 to calm down any flinchin problems you may have.
Good luck and I hope you bust that big ol' buck 
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Quoted:
I took my AR build out the other day, and I got about 2" groupings at 50 yards (using rest). This was with open sights (Daniel Defense A1.5 set w/XS same plane aperature and A2 post). The sight radius measures 15". I am going to be taking this gun deer hunting next week (using blind). I guess my questions are: 1) is this normal accuracy or would this be considered deficent? 2) what is the maximum range that an "average" AR15 shooter can hit a 6" target? I understand the second question is really hard to answer, but I'm trying to see what my limitations are. I haven't shot at 100 yards yet, and I might not get a chance to shoot it again before I head up north to hunt. Mike EDIT: specs on upper: - BCM light-weight middy - 13" TRX Extreme Rail - Daniel Defense A1.5 sights with XS same plane aperature and A2 post (15" sight radius) I can keep groups barely within 2inches but that it when useing my ashley SP A1 sights and ball ammo ( 14.7 hbar A1Bushmaster) If I had a proper rest maybe I could of done better? I find the ASHLEY same plane APS kinda big compared to the regular A1 sights so I feel 2inches is GTG!! I can do alot better with my M4 with ARMS 40L same plane and OTM |
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One of the smallest 10-shot groups that I've fired at 50 yards using the standard A2 front sight post and rear aperture had an extreme spread of 0.825" (1.576 MOA). High Power shooters using narrower front sight posts and smaller diameter rear sight apertures can do significantly better. http://www.box.net/shared/static/tkx89mi1st.jpg Well I can do that but with 5rds 
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2 inches is acceptable
As far as deer use 62-68 grain HPs or soft tips and you can expect a good hit to drop all but the most stubborn. I have taken 10 deer with 5.56 only 2 took more than one hit both were small spike bucks, one them also took s hit from my freinds 270 with out stopping. Keep them in the boiler and the 60+ grainers will drop deer. |
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A master-class shooter can reliably hold minute-of angle from a sling-supported position with a "National Match" quality AR15. Expect less with "rack-grade" gear. Especially with rack grade bullets. Quality barrels that are free floated and hand loaded ammo will easily shoot under 1" at 100 yards with iron sights. Anything less than that is a crap shoot. I've known people that have shot deer with 55 grain fmj's and they reported it turned their guts to soup and dropped them immediately. 20" barrels are preferred and keep it inside 125 yards and you'll be fine. |
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Growing up, in Montana, .223 was a pretty common deer rifle. It really is all about shot placement...I can kill a deer with a .22 if I shoot it in the right place. OTOH, I can blow the legs off deer all day long with a .338 Win Mag and all there will be is a bunch of 3-legged deer running (hopping?) around. Just choose a good quality ammo, make sure you can hit that 6" target at the ranges you are going to be shooting at, and take good shots. If you think the shot is questionable, pass it up. Wait for the next one. Try not to be a city-hunter-idiot that shoots at anything that moves.
Its one of the reasons I quit hunting, actually. I got sick to death of seeing the idiots from Billings driving their cars around in the hills with Bambi strapped to the hood. Opening day, the hills were literally orange with hunters. I saw some guy on a short bluff start taking potshots at a doe and two fawns running flat out angling away from him, from 600-700 yards. Next year I went bowhunting instead. I haven't been hunting with a gun since, as Oregon and Washington are twice as bad in most places. 
Now, I wouldn't take that .223 hunting elk, moose, caribou, or bear...  But it'll be fine for deer. Just make sure you can shoot. 
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Quoted:
I will be using Winchester 64gr Power-Point bullets for deer. I realise it is marginal, however the AR is the only centerfire rifle I currently own.
How much are the appleseed shoots? 64PP is GTG on deer. I bet you could do better with original A1 aps I took off my ashley XO same plane ap and replaced the original A1 aps Another tip that helps me is shooting NTCH |
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I am planning on switching to a geissele trigger next year. Until then I won't have the funds. I wonder if the KNS sight kit has a NM type post in it? It won't be at my house in time anyway (DPMS takes like 3-4 days to process a payment  ) so I'm not going to worry about it now. I'm hunting out of a ground blind using a folding chair that has armrests, so I should be able to rest the gun on something to stabilize it. As long as I can do that I'm totally confident that I can shoot within 6" at the distances I'm likely to encounter (less than 100yrds).
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I was under the impression that the .223/5.56 is below marginal for deer hunting. Has that been updated? I hate it when I hear or read that. I have a lot of buddies who have used mini 14 for their deer rifle and as long as you hit a vital area it doesnt matter. I know people who have used 22 mag with no problem as well. And no, the animal doesnt suffer anymore than it would from a 243 or 308 (hitting a vital area is more crucial with the smaller round). As for the post, that accuracy is fine, you will probably get close to 1 inch groups at that range as you shoot more. |
| Some AMU and All Guard shooters use the standard GI front post sight. If you can't see the front post then your accuracy will suffer. A smaller front sight doesn't dictate accuracy neither does a smaller rear aperture. A smaller rear aperture will give you greater depth perception to a point. |
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Some AMU and All Guard shooters use the standard GI front post sight. If you can't see the front post then your accuracy will suffer. A smaller front sight doesn't dictate accuracy neither does a smaller rear aperture. A smaller rear aperture will give you greater depth perception to a point. But a smaller rear aperture will decrease the light a LOT making the front sight VERY hard to see. I know this from my High Power days. I'd keep the rear sight as is and consider a NM front sight. The trigger is going to make a big difference. You will be fine inside of 100 yards. They do it all the time in real life combat and that deer ain't gonna shoot back. What ammo are you considering? You really have to take the time to sight in your rifle with that particular load. Good luck, Bill |
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Yes on a better trigger being a huge help.
Yes on reverting to smaller aperture sights. I had XS 'same plane' sights in a Government Carbine and its 15-22 clone; they are likely good sights for things bigger than a breadbox, but not so hot for pretty groups. I find the A2 sights to be reasonably fast but easier to shoot at smaller objects. I still have the skunk-stripe XS front, which is bunches easier to pick up, especially against a mixed background. It's wider than A2 or A1 fronts. I've done some decent groups with my A1, which has period-correct sights and an improved trigger. The combination of longer sight radius and smaller aperture does make a difference. Moon |
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if your shooting 2" at 50, sight in at 50 and youll be able to hold dead on and kill a deer(6"target) at 150yds. What ammo and barrel are you using? thats 4moa. You cant expect better than 3moa with a 10shot group, ball ammo, and a standard CL barrel. Even match barrels from a benchrest shooting military ammo group over 2 or 3moa.
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Quoted:
I took my AR build out the other day, and I got about 2" groupings at 50 yards (using rest). This was with open sights (Daniel Defense A1.5 set w/XS same plane aperature and A2 post). The sight radius measures 15". I am going to be taking this gun deer hunting next week (using blind). I guess my questions are: 1) is this normal accuracy or would this be considered deficent? 2) what is the maximum range that an "average" AR15 shooter can hit a 6" target? I understand the second question is really hard to answer, but I'm trying to see what my limitations are. I haven't shot at 100 yards yet, and I might not get a chance to shoot it again before I head up north to hunt. Mike EDIT: specs on upper: - BCM light-weight middy - 13" TRX Extreme Rail - Daniel Defense A1.5 sights with XS same plane aperature and A2 post (15" sight radius) I'm pretty sure it is still ILLEGAL to hunt deer with a 223. The way the law is written it states you cant use a .22 caliber, where it should really say you cant use .22 rimfire (or something to that effect) Please be sure of the laws. I will also be checking, because if I am mistaken, I am going up north to my cabin this weekend with my AR and sniping me a deer! :) ETA: I apologize. After about 1 min of research it appears I was mistaken. I dont know if this is a new change or if its always been this way. Where up north are you hunting? Good luck. |
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I swapped the blocky front post with a KNS .072 round ball post which tightend my groups. It's easier to zero in on bead and a round bead is more natural centering in a round rear aperature. I even put a dab of whiteout on it and in daylight it really pops.
eta- It looks lopsided in the pic but thats just the camera. 
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FWIW, when I sighted in my used colt 6551 and my white oak high power build, I was getting 1.5'' at 100 yards from the bench with 75 grain match ammo. With my dad's "crap" handloads which have 62 grain bullets bought in bulk, I was getting 4'' at 100 from the bench with the colt. ETA: I use the "crap" ammo for 3-gun. If I'm on my game, and able to shoot in prone, I can hit the "head" targets at 100-150, and LaRue poppers at 300. At 400, I start to struggle with the LaRue targets, since I'm not a good shooter, shoot a stock AR15 and my ammo sucks. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I took my AR build out the other day, and I got about 2" groupings at 50 yards (using rest). This was with open sights (Daniel Defense A1.5 set w/XS same plane aperature and A2 post). The sight radius measures 15". I am going to be taking this gun deer hunting next week (using blind). I guess my questions are: 1) is this normal accuracy or would this be considered deficent? 2) what is the maximum range that an "average" AR15 shooter can hit a 6" target? I understand the second question is really hard to answer, but I'm trying to see what my limitations are. I haven't shot at 100 yards yet, and I might not get a chance to shoot it again before I head up north to hunt. Mike EDIT: specs on upper: - BCM light-weight middy - 13" TRX Extreme Rail - Daniel Defense A1.5 sights with XS same plane aperature and A2 post (15" sight radius) I'm pretty sure it is still ILLEGAL to hunt deer with a 223. The way the law is written it states you cant use a .22 caliber, where it should really say you cant use .22 rimfire (or something to that effect) Please be sure of the laws. I will also be checking, because if I am mistaken, I am going up north to my cabin this weekend with my AR and sniping me a deer! :) ETA: I apologize. After about 1 min of research it appears I was mistaken. I dont know if this is a new change or if its always been this way. Where up north are you hunting? Good luck. I'm heading up to Manistee :) Unfortunately we cannot shoot does there (state land), so its going to be tough just trying to get a buck. |
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Ok guys, I went out to the range today and readjusted my sights for the Winchester ammo I'm using for hunting. I was pretty impressed, I shot a group that was just under 3/4" @ 50yrds. The real funny part is that this guy walked over to me all excited about the target his friend shot @ 50yrds with a Rem 700 in .308. He showed it to me and it was about 3/4"-1". I said casually, "Wow, thats really good, check out my target". I pulled it the target out of my backpack and the guy looked at my gun and asked, "Are you running open sights?!", and I was like "Yeah". The dude was floored, the look on his face was priceless And after talking with the guy more, he tells me that his friends Rem 700 has a 4-14x Nikon scope mounted on it. I was like, "haha dude I shoot with a 4x .22 @ 100yards and you've got a 4-14x?!". Lol, I guess I came a cross as a snob but I couldn't help it PICS:  
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the 64 gr PP is IMO the best 223 load for deer if you use it for deer. I have shot 4 deer with this load and all fell dead with in 50 yrds. All my shots were 80 - 150 yrds and in the heart and lung area's Put on in the neck and a deer runs nowhere with a 64gr PP. Drops dead in it's tracks. |
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Ok guys, well I just got back from deer camp and I didn't see a thing. The other guys saw some deer, but nothing they could shoot. I tell you what, I am very glad I brought the AR for deer hunting. The advantages of having a short, lightweight gun in the woods far outweigh the marginal stopping power of the .223/5.56mm. That being said, I'm going to put a 1-4x illuminated optic on it (Trijicon TR24 is the 1st that comes to mind) before next season. It is very difficult to see the irons in thick woods, even with the improved aperture and front post. Eventually when the cost of ammo becomes reasonable, I will convert the AR to 6.8mm. Until then, it stays 5.56mm 
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