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Posted: 9/5/2010 5:33:24 PM EDT
This might be a stupid question, but why do so many scopes have Mil-dot reticles and MOA click knobs? Seems like a really odd combination, yet plenty of "premium" scopes have the combo.

I'm shopping for my first scope with click knobs and I'm wondering if I'm excluding mismatch scopes and being too picky or thinking the wrong way.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:38:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 5:39:09 PM EDT by woode]
A lot of people learned on MOA knobs.. and the MIL reticle was great for ranging. Lately more and more manufacturers are moving towards offering MIL/MIL and MOA/MOA setups. I am a MIL/MIL fan myself - very fast system if learned, and find it to be extra work to have mismatched reticle/knobs –– but some people are stuck in there ways or don't want to learn. (I am sure someone will come along trying to defend MOA knobs on a MIL reticle - they are wrong.)
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:21:08 PM EDT
Can someone school me about the MIL thingy?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:48:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 6:54:27 PM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
Can someone school me about the MIL thingy?

Thanks!


http://www.mil-dot.com/

The big advantage of having MIL knobs on a MIL reticle (or MOA/MOA) is that if you are 1.5 MILs low, you simply click 1.5 MILs of elevation and you are on –– no math needed. If you have MOA knobs, you would need to guess or do math to figure out how many clicks you are off.

Also, lets say you range your target and are used to using mil clicks –– your hold overs are MILs too .. all one system. 20 clicks, 2 mil holdover, its easy. Etc etc..

Lastly, since I am sure it will be falsely brought up –– MIL is not metric and MOA is not US/standard or vice versa
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:05:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 7:12:13 PM EDT by BWood]

Originally Posted By woode:
A lot of people learned on MOA knobs.. and the MIL reticle was great for ranging. Lately more and more manufacturers are moving towards offering MIL/MIL and MOA/MOA setups. I am a MIL/MIL fan myself - very fast system if learned, and find it to be extra work to have mismatched reticle/knobs –– but some people are stuck in there ways or don't want to learn. (I am sure someone will come along trying to defend MOA knobs on a MIL reticle - they are wrong.)

The main advantage of a moa set up knob arrangement on a mildot ret scope when compared to a mil knob set up on the same scope...is that the MOA is more precise than the mil.

Example:

MOA adjustment at 100 yards = .25" for every click.
Mil adjustment = 3.6" at 100 yards for every click.

Yes the mil adjustment is faster...but also is less precise.

Either will work well....practice with whatever one you get.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:07:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 1:46:02 AM EDT by pup-dawg]
Originally Posted By BWood:

Originally Posted By woode:
A lot of people learned on MOA knobs.. and the MIL reticle was great for ranging. Lately more and more manufacturers are moving towards offering MIL/MIL and MOA/MOA setups. I am a MIL/MIL fan myself - very fast system if learned, and find it to be extra work to have mismatched reticle/knobs –– but some people are stuck in there ways or don't want to learn. (I am sure someone will come along trying to defend MOA knobs on a MIL reticle - they are wrong.)

The main advantage of a moa set up knob arrangement on a mildot ret scope when compared to a mil knob set up on the same scope...is that the MOA is more precise than the mil.

Example:

MOA adjustment at 100 yards = .25" for every click.
Mil adjustment = 3.6" at 100 yards for every click.

Yes the mil adjustment is faster...but also is less precise.

Either will work well....practice with whatever one you get.



This is wrong.

First:

1/4 MOA (not MOA as in 1 MOA) adjustment at 100 yards = .25 MOA not .25" (actually .26") for each CLICK.
Milliradian turrets are usually in 0.1 MIL increments that = 1 CM or .36" for each click at 100 yards. How .1" is less precise is beyond me and shouldn't matter if your DOPE is correct. I know you understand the system you just got your numbers mixed up there. Still I wouldn't say one is more "precise" than the other... however the 1/4 MOA adjustment IS FINER than a 0.1 mil adjustment, which really doesn't matter much.

1 MIL or 10 clicks on a 0.1 MIL turret gives you 3.6 inches @ 100 yards.

For the original poster:

Here read this 5x over. Over and over and over. Mils and MOA

The purpose of having a reticle with matching turret values is the ability to dial come-ups or holds by using the reticle itself. For years we used the MIL-DOT reticle with .25 MOA turrets... So I spot your shot exactly a MIL low (the distance between mil-dot centers) at 100 yards, now I have to call correction to you in MOA or 1/4 Minute increments so you know your correct dial. I would call your come up as 14 clicks up or 3.64 INCHES and you should be .04 inches high.

Now in the above if I had a MIL-dot reticle and 0.1 MIL turrets... I spot your shot at exactly 1 MIL low (again the distance between mil-dot centers), I immediately call your come up as 10 clicks or 1 MIL and you should be dead center.

^^^ see how short this last paragraph is? ^^^

If I spot your shot 1.5 MILS low through my mil-dot reticle I can call 15 clicks up or 1.5 mils.

Its best to just think of the correction in CM instead of inches IF you go with mil/mil system as 1 click on a 0.1 MIL turret moves bullet impact 1 CM @ 100 METERS (109 yards).

I hope this and that link above helps.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 3:42:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BWood:

Originally Posted By woode:
A lot of people learned on MOA knobs.. and the MIL reticle was great for ranging. Lately more and more manufacturers are moving towards offering MIL/MIL and MOA/MOA setups. I am a MIL/MIL fan myself - very fast system if learned, and find it to be extra work to have mismatched reticle/knobs –– but some people are stuck in there ways or don't want to learn. (I am sure someone will come along trying to defend MOA knobs on a MIL reticle - they are wrong.)

The main advantage of a moa set up knob arrangement on a mildot ret scope when compared to a mil knob set up on the same scope...is that the MOA is more precise than the mil.

Example:

MOA adjustment at 100 yards = .25" for every click.
Mil adjustment = 3.6" at 100 yards for every click.

Yes the mil adjustment is faster...but also is less precise.

Either will work well....practice with whatever one you get.



Wrong.

1 MOA = 1.047197580733... inches at 100 yards
1 MIL = 3.6000012... inches at 100 yards

Most MOA scopes are 1/4 MOA clicks and most MIL scopes are 1/10 MIL clicks.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 3:50:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By woode:
Wrong.

1 MOA = 1.047197580733... inches at 100 yards
1 MIL = 3.6000012... inches at 100 yards

Most MOA scopes are 1/4 MOA clicks and most MIL scopes are 1/10 MIL clicks.


You are confusing mils and mil-radians; this is often confused by shooters.

The "mil" was a pre-existing unit of angular measure (1/6400 of a complete circle) that had been around since the late 1800s and first entered service in the US military in 1904. The best anyone can figure on the where the confusion started is that when the 0802s at WTBN suggested that mils be added to sights to allow subtending, engineers assumed "mil" was a shorthand for mil-radians, and as can be seen in some sights, the mil-radian was used while some sights are in "mils"
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 3:56:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 4:01:18 AM EDT by BWood]
I fully understand the 1 MOA at a 100 yards is 1.04*****. Most scopes that are MOA are in 1/4" clicks...and most people...think of 1 moa to be rounded to 1" at 100 yards.

As for the 1 mil adjustment....there are a number of tactical scopes (Leupold) that DO USE 1 Mil adjustments on elevation...which does equal 3.6" per click. I fully understand that many of the makers such as NightForce, and even Leupold are now going with .1 mil clicks...which you are correct...is .36" at 100 yards. I was thinking of the commonly found scopes on many of the US mil rifles which are 1 mil adjustment per click....which I have always hated. I was a bit hasty not mentioning the .1 mil click models available today

For the record...this is the COMMONLY used model scope in the mil that I was referring to with the 1 mil elevation:

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-lrt-riflescopes/mark-4-10x40mm-lrt-m3/

  • The official day optic of the U.S. Army’s M-24 Sniper System.
  • The Multicoat 4® lens system delivers extreme clarity from edge to edge of the visual field, outstanding contrast, and a bright sight picture even in extreme low-light conditions.
  • Side focus parallax adjustment for fast, easy parallax focusing from 50 yards to infinity, from any shooting position.
  • Low-profile, finger-adjustable ½-MOA windage and 1-MOA elevation adjustments with audible, tactile clicks.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 4:19:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 4:30:13 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By BWood:
I fully understand the 1 MOA at a 100 yards is 1.04*****. Most scopes that are MOA are in 1/4" clicks...and most people...think of 1 moa to be rounded to 1" at 100 yards.

As for the 1 mil adjustment....there are a number of tactical scopes (Leupold) that DO USE 1 Mil adjustments on elevation...which does equal 3.6" per click. I fully understand that many of the makers such as NightForce, and even Leupold are now going with .1 mil clicks...which you are correct...is .36" at 100 yards. I was thinking of the commonly found scopes on many of the US mil rifles which are 1 mil adjustment per click....which I have always hated. I was a bit hasty not mentioning the .1 mil click models available today

For the record...this is the COMMONLY used model scope in the mil that I was referring to with the 1 mil elevation:

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-lrt-riflescopes/mark-4-10x40mm-lrt-m3/

  • The official day optic of the U.S. Army’s M-24 Sniper System.
  • The Multicoat 4® lens system delivers extreme clarity from edge to edge of the visual field, outstanding contrast, and a bright sight picture even in extreme low-light conditions.
  • Side focus parallax adjustment for fast, easy parallax focusing from 50 yards to infinity, from any shooting position.
  • Low-profile, finger-adjustable ½-MOA windage and 1-MOA elevation adjustments with audible, tactile clicks.



This scope is 1 MOA, not 1 MIL elevation clicks, and military rifles are not 1 MIL clicks. There is a variety of higher powered scopes being used, but most of them are now .1 MIL clicks on a MIL-dot reticle. You are proving yourself wrong in a theory that doesn't matter anways.

What is your point supposed to be? That proves nothing and means nothing relating to matching reticles and knobs.. Their are manufacturers that offer 1/8 MOA clicks, 1/4 MOA clicks, 1/2 MOA clicks, 1 MOA clicks... .05 MIL clicks, .1 MIL clicks..

Lastly, if you are shooting for accuracy at long distance you shouldn't be rounding numbers and you shouldn't even be thinking in inches like that. Think in ANGLES as that is what MOA and MIL are.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 4:48:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 5:07:57 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By woode:
Wrong.

1 MOA = 1.047197580733... inches at 100 yards
1 MIL = 3.6000012... inches at 100 yards

Most MOA scopes are 1/4 MOA clicks and most MIL scopes are 1/10 MIL clicks.


You are confusing mils and mil-radians; this is often confused by shooters.

The "mil" was a pre-existing unit of angular measure (1/6400 of a complete circle) that had been around since the late 1800s and first entered service in the US military in 1904. The best anyone can figure on the where the confusion started is that when the 0802s at WTBN suggested that mils be added to sights to allow subtending, engineers assumed "mil" was a shorthand for mil-radians, and as can be seen in some sights, the mil-radian was used while some sights are in "mils"


Sorry, I simplified it slightly (shouldn't have.. I am used to reffering to a MIL as 1/6280 of a circle).. here is the full breakdown correcting my previous post:

A mil radian is 1/1000th of a radian. 2 pi radians in a circle. 1 mil radian = 1/6283 of a complete circle. (3.4377 MOA)
The infantry rounded this to 6280 and called it a "mil". (3.439 MOA)
The artillery changed this again to 6400 and also called it a "mil". (3.375 MOA)
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 6:46:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 6:47:44 AM EDT by sititunga]
OK I'm going to be sending two of my NXS scopes off to have the zero stop feature installed. One of these scopes has an MLR reticule the other has a MilDot reticule both scopes have MOA adjustments. Should I have NF install Mil turrets?

When people talk of matching reticules to turrets (Mil or MOA) could someone tell me what reticules are matched with Mil and MOA adjustments?
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 6:56:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 6:59:58 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By sititunga:
OK I'm going to be sending two of my NXS scopes off to have the zero stop feature installed. One of these scopes has an MLR reticule the other has a MilDot reticule both scopes have MOA adjustments.
Should I have NF install Mil turrets? Totally up to you, personal preference. If it was me, I would..

When people talk of matching reticules to turrets (Mil or MOA) could someone tell me what reticules are matched with Mil and MOA adjustments? Any mil reticle (mil dot, mil gap, mil scale, etc.. moa scale..) They all basically have a scale of some sort (dots, lines,..) that represent mils, 1/2 mils, etc.. (same applies to MOA)


Link Posted: 9/6/2010 6:58:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By woode:
Originally Posted By sititunga:
OK I'm going to be sending two of my NXS scopes off to have the zero stop feature installed. One of these scopes has an MLR reticule the other has a MilDot reticule both scopes have MOA adjustments.
Should I have NF install Mil turrets? Totally up to you, personal preference. If it was me, I would..

When people talk of matching reticules to turrets (Mil or MOA) could someone tell me what reticules are matched with Mil and MOA adjustments? Any mil reticle (mil dot, mil gap, mil scale, etc.. moa scale..) They all basically have a scale of some sort (dots, lines,..) that represent mils, 1/2 mils, etc..




So the reticules I have in my NF scopes would be better suited to milrad turrets?

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:02:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sititunga:
Originally Posted By woode:
Originally Posted By sititunga:
OK I'm going to be sending two of my NXS scopes off to have the zero stop feature installed. One of these scopes has an MLR reticule the other has a MilDot reticule both scopes have MOA adjustments.
Should I have NF install Mil turrets? Totally up to you, personal preference. If it was me, I would..

When people talk of matching reticules to turrets (Mil or MOA) could someone tell me what reticules are matched with Mil and MOA adjustments? Any mil reticle (mil dot, mil gap, mil scale, etc.. moa scale..) They all basically have a scale of some sort (dots, lines,..) that represent mils, 1/2 mils, etc..




So the reticules I have in my NF scopes would be better suited to milrad turrets?



Yes. Both MLR and MilDot are MIL-based reticles. Nightforce's NP R1 and NP R2 are MOA based reticles.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:07:30 AM EDT
Thanks. How does magnification interfer with the calculation. There is 10 cms or 1 mil (I think) of adjustment between mildots, but is that only true at a set distance and magnification?
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:15:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 7:16:25 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By sititunga:
Thanks. How does magnification interfer with the calculation. There is 10 cms or 1 mil (I think) of adjustment between mildots, but is that only true at a set distance and magnification?


Magnification will only interfere if its a second/rear focal plane scope –– in which case the 'scale' (reticle) remains the same size. The reticles are calibrated at a set magnification (usually the max). More math can be done for using other magnifications. First/front focal plane scopes will have the reticle scaling with the magnification - therefor they are always the correct size at any magnification.

10cm to 1 mil is an approximation at 100 yards, try to think in angles to understand MILs and MOA. The posts above explain this.

You may want to read up / study.. There is a lot to the subject, and this website does a good job explaining it fairly in depth:
http://www.mil-dot.com/Content%20Images/The_Derivation_of_the_Range_Estimation_Equations.pdf
http://www.mil-dot.com/Mil_Dot_Reticle_Most.htm#GetTheMostIntro
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:42:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 7:45:08 AM EDT by sititunga]
So ideally I should also be looking to have these two scopes changed to the first focal plane, if NF can do this, to gain the most benefit?
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:52:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 7:52:47 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By sititunga:
So ideally I should also be looking to have these two scopes changed to the first focal plane, if NF can do this, to gain the most benefit?


FFP vs SFP is personal preference, there are pros and cons to each. You can research that to decide if you may like a FFP scope better than SFP. Nightforce won't be able to change something that drastic as that is the mechanics of the scope (although they do offer a FFP model scope).
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 8:02:10 AM EDT
I see they do a 3.5-15 model in FFP. My Zeiss and Swarovsky are FFP as you increase power the reticules become thick - so I quess that would be one of the FFP's disadvantages on a sniper type scope.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 8:36:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By woode:
A mil radian is 1/1000th of a radian. 2 pi radians in a circle. 1 mil radian = 1/6283 of a complete circle. (3.4377 MOA)
The infantry rounded this to 6280 and called it a "mil". (3.439 MOA)
The artillery changed this again to 6400 and also called it a "mil". (3.375 MOA)


Have you ever looked at the bipod for a mortar, the tripod for a machine gun, the reticle of binoculars, the azimuth counter on a tank turret, the scale on compasses? they are all in 1/6400 mils. There is no such thing as an "infantry" mil there is only one unit of measure know as the mil in the US and western militaries and it is 1/6400 of a circle. The first time it entered service with the US military was in 1904 when we bought French Panoramic Telescopes to use on field pieces.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 9:02:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 9:19:25 AM EDT by woode]
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By woode:
A mil radian is 1/1000th of a radian. 2 pi radians in a circle. 1 mil radian = 1/6283 of a complete circle. (3.4377 MOA)
The infantry rounded this to 6280 and called it a "mil". (3.439 MOA)
The artillery changed this again to 6400 and also called it a "mil". (3.375 MOA)


Have you ever looked at the bipod for a mortar, the tripod for a machine gun, the reticle of binoculars, the azimuth counter on a tank turret, the scale on compasses? they are all in 1/6400 mils. There is no such thing as an "infantry" mil there is only one unit of measure know as the mil in the US and western militaries and it is 1/6400 of a circle. The first time it entered service with the US military was in 1904 when we bought French Panoramic Telescopes to use on field pieces.



Alright, well I have learned differently then..by infantry I was referring to crew served weapons in specific and going back to the early 1900s. Artillery crews also used MILs but made math simpler by using 1/6400. This is what I have learned.. agree to disagree I guess.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 12:25:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By woode:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By woode:
A mil radian is 1/1000th of a radian. 2 pi radians in a circle. 1 mil radian = 1/6283 of a complete circle. (3.4377 MOA)
The infantry rounded this to 6280 and called it a "mil". (3.439 MOA)
The artillery changed this again to 6400 and also called it a "mil". (3.375 MOA)


Have you ever looked at the bipod for a mortar, the tripod for a machine gun, the reticle of binoculars, the azimuth counter on a tank turret, the scale on compasses? they are all in 1/6400 mils. There is no such thing as an "infantry" mil there is only one unit of measure know as the mil in the US and western militaries and it is 1/6400 of a circle. The first time it entered service with the US military was in 1904 when we bought French Panoramic Telescopes to use on field pieces.



Alright, well I have learned differently then..by infantry I was referring to crew served weapons in specific and going back to the early 1900s. Artillery crews also used MILs but made math simpler by using 1/6400. This is what I have learned.. agree to disagree I guess.


The US military has only used one Mil system, the Russians used a system they called a Mil but was referred to in the west as the DC system which was 1/6000 and the Swedes used a system called the Streck which was 1⁄6300
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:32:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 7:22:16 PM EDT by sititunga]
Originally Posted By woode:
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
Can someone school me about the MIL thingy?

Thanks!


http://www.mil-dot.com/

The big advantage of having MIL knobs on a MIL reticle (or MOA/MOA) is that if you are 1.5 MILs low, you simply click 1.5 MILs of elevation and you are on –– no math needed. If you have MOA knobs, you would need to guess or do math to figure out how many clicks you are off.

Also, lets say you range your target and are used to using mil clicks –– your hold overs are MILs too .. all one system. 20 clicks, 2 mil holdover, its easy. Etc etc..

Lastly, since I am sure it will be falsely brought up –– MIL is not metric and MOA is not US/standard or vice versa


I must admit I'm not entirely convinced I see the advantage of Mil adjustments over MOA adjustments or vice verca. If your scope is FFP then surely the advantage is equal, in that if you have matched reticules and adjustments you can adjust just as quickly with either Mil or MOA systems. And likewise you're at the same disadvantage if your scope is SFP and not set at the correct power to allow you to precisely adjust according to your reticule's hashes you're going to have to guestimate your adjustments for either system. Please somebody step in if I have completely lost the plot on this.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 6:04:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By takque:
This might be a stupid question, but why do so many scopes have Mil-dot reticles and MOA click knobs? Seems like a really odd combination, yet plenty of "premium" scopes have the combo.

I'm shopping for my first scope with click knobs and I'm wondering if I'm excluding mismatch scopes and being too picky or thinking the wrong way.


I think the reason for so many mismatched scopes is because a lot of the people that come up with new scopes don't shoot, they might hunt. To them a 1/10 mil turret is metric and they know Americans don't like metric. When in actuallity 1/10 mil is also 1 inch at 10,000 inches. Leupold's "metric" scopes are 1/20 mil. The scope companies are catching on though. Weaver just came out with a new 3-10x Mil/Mil scope.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1993821#Post1993821
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:07:39 AM EDT
BTT I need to save some of these links.
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