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Posted: 9/25/2009 4:26:49 AM EDT
| I maybe go to the range once a month, I am wanting to get an aimpoint but currently cant afford to shell out $400+ on one. Would a fake be ok just for alittle while until I can save for one? I would be getting one with a 3x magnifier probobly. |
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Read this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=460583 . For range use only you will be fine. If your life depends on your gun then get the real thing.... |
| Min reason because I am only making 60% of what I was making since Obama took office. All my money goes to my wife and kids, I only get an extra $25 a week for what I want. I really want an optic and dont want to wait 16+ weeks for the real thing when I can get a cheap one now that will work until I can save. |
Well I certainly think feeding the wife and kiddies is more important than having an aimpoint I'll just say this. When I spend too much of the day reading arfkom I am convinced that I need a noveske upper, or a S&B shortdot. If I go spend an afternoon shooting I realize I need to spend more time shooting instead of worrying about other stuff I want to stick on my AR  |
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Quoted:
Well I certainly think feeding the wife and kiddies is more important than having an aimpoint
I'll just say this. When I spend too much of the day reading arfkom I am convinced that I need a noveske upper, or a S&B shortdot. If I go spend an afternoon shooting I realize I need to spend more time shooting instead of worrying about other stuff I want to stick on my AR
Great post Aimless |
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Here's my two cents: I've never used a rifle in a life-or-death situation, nor do I ever expect to. Having said that, I've only had experience with iron sights, and standard telescopic sights. I've had no experience whatsoever with red dots, holo-whatsits, triji-points, or anything like that. When I built my AR, I was unsure about exactly what kind of sighting arrangement to use. I figured I'd always want irons on there, but if all the HSLD guys are running with these various kinds of optics, they're probably pretty useful things to have.
Not having any experience with them, I couldn't be sure what exactly I wanted. Not wanting to blow over a grand on an optic that I'm unhappy with, I managed to come into a crappy little BSA red dot and cantilevered mount. Total cost to me was less than forty bucks. Once I sighted it in, I used that crappy BSA red dot to put a couple full magazines into a 3moa group at a hundred yards. That crappy red dot has held zero for a year or so now. Lessons learned (applicable to me, at least): - A crappy BSA red dot is good for general accuracy, but prolly not too far out. - In order to see the real accuracy my rifle is capable of, I need a magnified optic. - In order to have better snap-shooting abilities, that magnified optic better be able to be dialed back to zero, or near it. - In looking at just the quality of the dot in that BSA sight, you DO get what you pay for. I mean, it works, but it's hardly what I would want if I were going into harms way. I figure I learned enough from that red dot sight as to count that it has paid for itself. I mean, now I know not to drop coin on a high-dollar unmagnified optic - I just won't be happy with it, and I'll end up selling it, probably taking a loss well over and above what the BSA dot cost. This will actually save me, in the long run... |
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Quoted:
I maybe go to the range once a month, I am wanting to get an aimpoint but currently cant afford to shell out $400+ on one. Would a fake be ok just for alittle while until I can save for one? I would be getting one with a 3x magnifier probobly. What do you mean when you say fake? The ones on anti gun Ebay with a stolen logo are crap generally shipped form overseas from a company that does not stand behind them. We sell weapons grade red dot that will serve what you posted as your intended use well. Several thousand in the field with legions of satisfied customers. No fake logo no patent infringement just a quality imported product at a fair price. They are not Aimpoint take into battle tough and they do not have the Aimpoint extreme battery life. When you are ready for your Aimpoint we will take care of that too. You will have at least one more AR probably more by then and you can throw the PA red dot one of the others. If not sell it on the AR15.com Equipment Exchange for close to what you paid for it. Read what people that have used our products have to say. You can do a search on Primary Arms. Also here is a link to our industry forum. LINK And as previously mentioned you can try a few different optics platforms without breaking the bank. A 1-4X scope is a great AR optic as well. We have those for $119. The Red dot and 3X magnifier combo shown below is $158 www.PrimaryArms.com 
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Quoted: I'm no crack shot but can make hits on steel silhouettes well past 400 yards with an aimpoint. Now obviously with a scope you gain the ability to see better what is going on and to fire with better accuracy, but someone who shoots frequently can make some pretty long shots with an Aimpoint.Here's my two cents: I've never used a rifle in a life-or-death situation, nor do I ever expect to. Having said that, I've only had experience with iron sights, and standard telescopic sights. I've had no experience whatsoever with red dots, holo-whatsits, triji-points, or anything like that. When I built my AR, I was unsure about exactly what kind of sighting arrangement to use. I figured I'd always want irons on there, but if all the HSLD guys are running with these various kinds of optics, they're probably pretty useful things to have. Not having any experience with them, I couldn't be sure what exactly I wanted. Not wanting to blow over a grand on an optic that I'm unhappy with, I managed to come into a crappy little BSA red dot and cantilevered mount. Total cost to me was less than forty bucks. Once I sighted it in, I used that crappy BSA red dot to put a couple full magazines into a 3moa group at a hundred yards. That crappy red dot has held zero for a year or so now. Lessons learned (applicable to me, at least): - A crappy BSA red dot is good for general accuracy, but prolly not too far out. - In order to see the real accuracy my rifle is capable of, I need a magnified optic. - In order to have better snap-shooting abilities, that magnified optic better be able to be dialed back to zero, or near it. - In looking at just the quality of the dot in that BSA sight, you DO get what you pay for. I mean, it works, but it's hardly what I would want if I were going into harms way. I figure I learned enough from that red dot sight as to count that it has paid for itself. I mean, now I know not to drop coin on a high-dollar unmagnified optic - I just won't be happy with it, and I'll end up selling it, probably taking a loss well over and above what the BSA dot cost. This will actually save me, in the long run... I have pissed away money on MANY cheap optics. mostly chinese, and they invariably end up in the trash can. By buying real military grade optics you don't just get an optic that is built for gun fights, you get something that will hold zero, not get moisture in it, have repeatable clicks etc. Mueller is another one of those "sure they are chinese but they are really good chinese and we are a USA company" places. They had a thread going on here for over a year about a "1-4 combat optic" they were developing. I was one of the few voices of dissent, I found the same parts from their scope on airsoft scopes, I made the same comments about chinese junk that I am making here so finally they challenged me to buy their scope and test it. I paid dealer cost and it arrived in the mail. I mounted it on a bushmaster. I fired less than 20 shots and the reticle rotated about 45 degrees. I sent it back, they mailed me a refund check and the chinese super tactical 1-4 scope was never heard from again. Ask yourself this when considering a chinese optic. A flight to China is about 20 hours one way and costs a grand or more. Add to that hotels, food etc and every trip over there is probably $ 5k and week out of the country. How often do you really think these guys selling "quality chinese optics" fly over there to check on the factory? do they really know whether this is the same stuff being sold as airsoft? Do they have the engineering background to take these apart and know what the components are? Or do they, like most people having stuff made in China, order stuff through an english speaking jobber and never really know where the stuff is made, who makes it, what the QC is etc beyond what the Chinese (hardly a reliable source) tell them? Do they speak mandarin or any other chinese dialects? My aimpoint is the best investment I have made in an optic. It's been to Blackwater, FIRE Institute, Progressive Force, 10-8 classes, it's been bashed climbing trees, falling down river banks, having a steel shutter slam on it, been kicked around, soaked, frozen and on and on. All that for a couple hundred bucks more than a scope that looks like an aimpoint with mystery chinese optics inside. |
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I don’t do long posts but this is the exception. This is just my personal two cents on a few things that have come up in this thread and a little more about our company since a few things have been said that might reflect on the import side of our business.
1: If you don’t want to buy products made in China I respect that. I buy made in the US whenever possible. We sell as many made in the US products as we can. The reality of the world today is electronics and lower priced optics are made in China. 2: If you don’t like that I sell a product that looks like an Aimpoint that is OK but there is no current design patent on the look of the CompM2/3. We are providing a legal product at a fair price that people want. We do what it takes to keep our customers coming back and offer products at all price ranges. That is called capitalism. I know it has fallen out of favor as of late but I still think is a great system. 3: Yes the best advice is to buy an Aimpoint. If you are looking for glass get a Nightforce, US Optics S&B or the new made in US Premier, they are spectacular. That said every week we get LE and military home on leave, call, email or come to the shop to pick up one of our low priced optics. Why? That is all they can afford. They are not using them for personal defense or duty use but want a red dot that is similar to what they are used to using on their personal training weapon. 4: When newbie comes here and gets told just buy a Aimpoint and are made to feel inferior because they cannot afford one my guess is 9 times out of 10 they go to Ebay and buy a counterfeit for $49 and pay $25 shipping from Hong Kong for a piece of crap. As we know many if those wind up on the EE as the real deal. 5: IMHO our $69 red dot is the best $69 red dot going. No more no less. I am very clear when asked that they are not anywhere near Aimpoint reliabilty, but we have lots of satisfied users and if you read the posts some run them pretty hard. They are made out of Aluminum and are a decent product at a fair price. I have been upfront in my posts that we did not design these but did do our homework to find a reputable factory and work closely with them. And yes my partner did go to China and meet with them. More about that later. I am sure some parts and castings are shared with air soft red dots but I have pointed out specific things that are different. There is a good tacked thread showing one where the LED in one is held in place by tape and the inner tube is soft rubber. Ours are bonded to a ridged inner tube. Not very high tech but they hold zero because of that. We now are doing enough business with them that we have a few new products that will hit later this year they did design for us. 6: I agree that many companies take a low priced Chinese product and market it as something it is not or charge more than it is worth. What really pisses me off more than that is the large retail stores that stops selling quality products like Harris bipods and replaces them with Shooters Ridge for $10 less. What they should do that would better serve their customers is keep selling Harris and sell the import for $39.99. That would be a fair price for them. 7: We are not the only ones offering a decent lower priced red dot. The Strikefire has a good following of satisfied users and offer some additional features. It does not look just like a Aimpoint if that bothers you. 8: We are a very small almost comically efficient company. Anyone is welcome to visit our small warehouse and shipping operation in Houston. Plenty of locals do. You can see the prototypes that we test and take apart. We have products that we busted open to see if the construction is what we pay for. Interestingly enough my partner is an engineer. He sources products for the gaming industry from China. They don’t go there to save money but that is just where the factories are. He visits on a regular basis. He understands how to do business there. Crap the computer you are accessing this web site was built there or at least the internals were. Your phone and TV most cetanly were. They can build a decent mass produced product. 9: All brands have failures. Aimpoint less than most. If what happens if you have a problem is important read the posts from our customers. 10: We just received our first shipment of the new Trijicon TR24 1-4X. We sold them in 5 minutes but I snagged one for personal use. Why would I want to run a $750 Trijicon 1-4X when our newest product is a 1-4X scope? The glass is better, the reticle is daylight visible and it is true 1X. I am 55 own two successful business and generally buy what I want but take a look at some of the posts from people that just received our $119 scope. They are able to go out and run a decent 1-4X and have fun with it. Our red dot customer can do the same or train with them. That is all we are talking about with these products. If you can afford it get a Aimpoint. If your life is on the line get a Aimpoint. Marshall Lerner CEO Primary Arms, LLC PS: If a certain site staff wants a 1-4X “to play with” I will be glad to send him one. |
| Nice post, Marshall. It's great to see an Industry Partner of ARFCOM promote and defend their products objectively. I would also like to see more fair priced domestic products and fewer imported products (from any country) in our marketplace, but given the way capitalism works, the market dictates sourcing and pricing. |
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That was a great post Marsh1. I will be bookmarking and visiting your site in the future when i need more stuff.
I just bought a sightmark aimpoint clone and was wondering if anyone has a compairison between it and the PA one? I havent received it yet but was told they were decent optics for the price. |
| Great post Marshall. The $158.00 I spent for my red dot /3x mag combo was well worth it for the purpose I purchased it for which is training at the range. The sight holds zero, glass is clear and the sight is much better built than I was expecting for the price. Your prompt shipping and honesty in your business dealings have made me a repeat customer and I will be ordering a 1-4x from you in the near future. |
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Quoted:
_______________________________ I have pissed away money on MANY cheap optics. mostly chinese, and they invariably end up in the trash can. By buying real military grade optics you don't just get an optic that is built for gun fights, you get something that will hold zero, not get moisture in it, have repeatable clicks etc. ___________________________________ My aimpoint is the best investment I have made in an optic. It's been to Blackwater, FIRE Institute, Progressive Force, 10-8 classes, it's been bashed climbing trees, falling down river banks, having a steel shutter slam on it, been kicked around, soaked, frozen and on and on. All that for a couple hundred bucks more than a scope that looks like an aimpoint with mystery chinese optics inside. Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that the crappy BSA dot sight that I used for experimenting is in any way, shape, or form the equal to a high-quality dot sight. All I'm saying is, before you drop lots of money on a military grade optic, play around with the different concepts so when you DO buy a quality sight, you can buy once and cry once. This is what I did, and this is how I know that my "ideal" optic is going to be illuminated, variable power, not too heavy, not too huge, and (unfortunately) too expensive for my beer-bottle budget. I'm probably going to go the Millet DMS route. Though I wish I could pony up for something more high-dollar, I figure the DMS will prolly meet my (limited) needs while still being on my (limited) budget. |
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I think that the point is this:
Buy a BSA product, or any of the toy products out there, and the money will be wasted - if you try and sell it before it does break, you'll probably not get your money's worth. On the other hand, Primary Arms (and Strikefire) seem to have established good names - particularly PA... to the point that if I drop $150 on a sight, I can likely sell it used for not much less than that a year later. They are quality products. For a long time, we've had a market with either Aimpoints and Trijicons at the high end, and BSA at the low end, and not much in between. That's changed, and the in between stuff that PA is putting out appears to be consistently good quality. And well supported. |
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