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Posted: 7/2/2003 5:54:29 PM EDT
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I am trying to learn about night vision before I make a purchase. The more I read and the more sales people I talk to the more confused I get. I think I want a PVS14. I want to use it as head mounted monocular with a weapon mounted IR laser. I also want to be able to mount it in front of my 4x acog. So as I was shoping I was trying to pay attention to the resolution of the different models for sale. Some are 54lp and some are 64lp. However I just spoke to a sales person that told me resolution does not mean that much and that any itt NV avaliable to civilians will have a much shorter effective range than available to millitary/LE because of the tube quality. He said just because you find a unit with 65lp resolution does not mean you will be able to id targets at extended ranges. Is this right? And is it true that only the night quest line is avalable to civilians and the the night enforcer line is availabe only to LE and is the true mil spec stuff? He told me for $310O a night Quest pvs 14 will have a "b" tube that will have no better performance than some of the high end 2nd gen stuff and no where near the range of military issue. Is this true? Also I am seeing some "d" or "delta" tube modles for sale in the $4500 range. Are these significantly better tubes in terms of effective range? Thanks in advance. |
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I'm no expert, but I can tell you that most NV currently in use are "B" tubes. A few units have the newer stuff, but due to the costs with the numbers involved, the military is slow to upgrade. The B tubes are very good, and obviously the newer ones are even better. But the cost/performance curve is very steep. Anyway, some other folks will be along with better info than what I have. -Troy |
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M.S.T.N. STARTED OUT DEALING PRIMARILY IN NIGHT VISION GEAR, ALL GEN III HIGH END STUFF. WE DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO MAKE A MARKET IN THIS ARENA PRESENTLY, BECAUSE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MANUFACTURERS, DISTRIBUTORS, AND DEALERS HAS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. BUT WE HAVE RUN $200,000 WORTH OF LITTON AND ITT GEN III DEVICES THROUGH HERE IN THE PAST, SO WE DO KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT IT. BOTH PAUL AND I PERSONALLY USE OMNI-IV MILSPEC PVS-14 UNITS. AND WE'VE LOOKED THROUGH A LOT OF NVD'S. IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD IS AT BEST MISLEADING AND IN SOME CASES FALSE. #1: RESOLUTION IS BUT ONE MEASURE OF PERFORMANCE OF NIGHT VISION DEVICES, AND NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT. THAT IS SIGNAL-TO-NOISE-RATIO. BUT RESOLUTION IS THE EASY TO QUANTIFY AND UNDERSTAND INTELLECTUALLY. THAT IS WHY IT IS THROWN AROUND SO MUCH. #2: THE NIGHT ENFORCER LINE IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE NIGHT QUEST LINE IN EVERY RESPECT EXCEPT WARRANTY. THE N.E. WARRANTIES ARE TYPICALLY LONGER. N.E. PRODUCTS ARE DEFINITELY NOT MILSPEC. BUT THEY'RE GOOD. SO ARE N.Q. UNITS. #3: A TRUE "DELTA" TUBE THESE DAYS WILL MEET OMNI-V MILSPEC CRITERIA AND HAVE A TUBE DATA SHEET TO PROVE IT. IT WILL CRUSH, PERFORMANCE-WISE, A LESSER GEN III TUBE, SUCH AS THE NIGHT QUEST OR NIGHT ENFORCER LINE. I HAVE CONFIRMED THIS WITH MY OWN TWO BABY-BLUES ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS. THAT'S NOT TO INFER THAT THE NIGHT QUEST OR NIGHT ENFORCER LINE IS IN ANY WAY DEFICIENT. BUT YOU SHOULD EXPECT MORE FROM A DELTA TUBE COSTING 50% MORE. THEY AIN'T 50% BETTER, BTW. LITTLE KNOWN FACT: OMNI-IV SPECS ARE HIGHER THAN OMNI-V. LITTON AND ITT COULD NOT MEET DEMAND SO THE SPECS HAD TO BE LOWERED. WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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You need to define what do you want to do with the night vision scope. Then you need to verify how much you want (or can) spend. You are right, the price can go easily to the $4000 for a good Gen3. Then you may want to check these websites: This is an excellent scientific website: http://www.photonic-science.ltd.uk/tn_007.html http://savvysurvivor.com/night_vision_gear_is_it_worth_it.htm This is a vendor but has a very good forum: http://www.nightvisiononline.com/index.cgi I own a ATN Paladin Gen 1. Works quite fine for what I want it to do. If I could afford I would get a PVS-14 with 64lp resolution. For what I have seen around you can get what you want if you pay for it. Of course, assuming you are here in the US. Gen 2 and 3 cannot be exported unless you have an special authorization. Cheers! |
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Thanks Wes Can I bother you with a few more questions? 1)At what range will a $3100 NQ PVS 14 with a "B" tube allow me to identify targets both head mounted and in front of the 4xACOG? 2) Is it likely that the $4500 units I am seeing advertised meet omni IV specs? 3) IF so, what do I look for on a tube data sheet "to prove it"? 4)How do I get what you and Paul use and how much should I expect to pay? |
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Nathan, shoot me an e-mail. I have something you may be interested in but your IM mail box is full. Full-Auto [email protected] |
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Quoted: Nathan, shoot me an e-mail. I have something you may be interested in but your IM mail box is full. Full-Auto [email protected] What do you have for me? If you post it on this open forum then maybe Wes and others here can help me decide if it's what I want. I also cleaned out my IM box. |
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1)At what range will a $3100 NQ PVS 14 with a "B" tube allow me to identify targets both head mounted and in front of the 4xACOG? THERE'S NO WAY TO REALLY SAY. THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY VARIABLES. AMBIENT LIGHT, ATMOSPHERIC PARTICULATE MATTER, TARGET CONTRAST WITH SURROUNDINGS, ETC. YOU'LL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO "SEE" BETTER WITH THE NVD HEAD MOUNTED THAN YOU WILL LOOKING THROUGH AN AIMPOINT OR ESPECIALLY AN EOTHING. 2) Is it likely that the $4500 units I am seeing advertised meet omni IV specs? NO. THEY WILL MEET OMNI-V, HOWEVER. 3) IF so, what do I look for on a tube data sheet "to prove it"? HERE ARE A FEW OF THE MORE RELEVANT OMNI-IV CRITERIA. KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MINIMUMS. I AM TAKING THESE OFF A LETTER FROM ITT REGARDING OMNI-IV SPECS, NOT PULLING THEM FROM MEMORY: RESOLUTION: 64 LP/MM SIGNAL/NOISE RATION: 21:1 PHOTOCATHODE SENSITIVITY: 1800 WITH OMNI-V, THE S/N RATIO FALLS OFF A BIT. DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS IN FRONT OF ME, BUT I THINK THE RATIO IS 19.5:1. RESOLUTION IS THE SAME, 64 LP/MM. 4)How do I get what you and Paul use and how much should I expect to pay? I HAVEN'T SEEN OMNI-IV SOLD SINCE 2000. OMNI-V WILL SERVE YOU WELL. WES |
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Wes, as usual you are a wealth of knowage and a ton of help. I am not trying to be a pain in the ass but --- I am really trying to nail down the real world differences between the $3100 "b" tube and the $4500 "Delta". I know you can't tell me their usful range because it is dependent on many variables but relatively speeking, in terms of usefull distance, how much better is the "delta" If I were to buy either and put it up to my eye I would not even know what to expect. Thanks again Kris |
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