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Posted: 7/22/2017 12:20:27 PM EDT
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I've been thinking about getting some SIM rounds for indoor training but I'm not sure where to start. A lot of the ones I'm seeing need a conversion kit but I've heard there are some out there that don't need a conversion kit.
I'm interested in 5.56 and 9mm. If anyone could help me it would be much appreciated. |
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Unless you have a BIG budget or a Dept. Letterhead...I would consider airsoft.
Getting SIM ammo can be a pain, unless you are an official agency or Dept. It's also expensive. And hurts... The guns need to be converted and the conversion kits that only replace the slide/bolt may or may not be reliable. Dedicated SIM guns work the best but once again, depends on your budget. As an individual, the manufacturer will probably not service the gear because you are not .gov. Our agency used Simmunition guns for a lot of training, including full-auto MP5 with SIM's (total blast to shoot) but we ended up using airsoft guns for much of the training such as Active Shooter Training etc. It's just logistics, expense, etc. SWAT still uses actual SIMs in Glocks and M4's etc because it is the best and most life-like. You can look on the EE as SIM's conversions show up from time to time. I bought a used SIM conversion for my G17 there. Could not fire 2 consecutive shots without jamming and I gave up. |
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I found the Simunition conversion Glock upper and M4 bolt/carrier conversions to cost less than a nice Airsoft gun. About $280 each.
I found the conversions to be totally reliable, provided you follow the instructions. 10 rounds in a mag, clean every 100, etc. I have not found it to hurt much... way less than a paintball. Sim ammo that fits in an unmodified gun? Are you crazy? That must be the worst idea ever. Seriously, think about what you are suggesting... I bought 500 rounds of 5.56 and 500 rounds of 9mm because those were the minimum quantities. It was over $600. Not really any more than duty/defensive ammo. I used 1 round in a whole class once. You use very little of the stuff. literally 100 rounds would last your whole life lol. If you are using more you likely are using them wrong. I would say 20 would be a really high round count for a good training scenario. This isn't paintball or Airsoft game stuff. Its for real training. Scenarios get resolved in 0-4 shots 99% of the time. |
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Quoted:
:/ did you guys invest in the really nice airsoft guns? Kinda killed my hopes using SIM rounds. About $1 a shot. They aren't cheap. Total investment in my LM4 with 6 magazines was around 6 or 700 dollars. But you can shoot for pennies. A 5000 count bottle of BBs that are high quality are going to be about 20 dollars. And you can run them on standard propane gas like you can buy at Wal Mart for camping stoves. The rifles recoil about like shooting a .22lr conversion out of a standard AR. The pistols have a little bit of recoil but nothing like the real deals obviously. You can go Electric for less money but they are far less realistic as far as weapon manipulation than the gas powered models. KWA does make an ERG (Electric Recoil Gun) that simulates recoil using an electrically driven weight of some kind but you don't have to worry about gas. I really encourage people to get into gas powered airsoft guns for training. I found that doing reload drills with the airsoft pistol before matches improved my split times and reload times by a bit. I think that initial investment is a little lower on the sim round side but long term factoring in the cost of ammo airsoft wins. My LM4 in use at a for fun FoF game. Not training. 
My gear which has changed a bit since this picture was taken, is the same gear I use for my real firearms. The pistol in this picture is a KWA ATP which is supposed to closely simulate GLOCKs and M&Ps. YOu can get M&P clones here stateside pretty easy as S&W licensed them out to a company called Cybergun who builds M&P9 and 9C airsoft gas blowback guns. I bought one of those for my wife since she has a M&P. I had to order my GLOCK from China, GLOCK took forever to license their's out for airsoft and when they did the company limited the sales to LEO and Military only. 
Another ingame picture. I originally got into this for training reasons then attended a few games and really enjoyed it so I try to get out a few times a year to play. 
GLOCK Clone before I put the Vickers grip plug in and the fiber optic sights. 
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I would like to address my views on the causes of why people think Simunition is not reliable. I would hate for people to get the wrong idea about its reliability from this thread.
1. Old worn out gear. To me this is one of the major issues, if not the biggest issue. In my state, the largest amount of Sim training is used in ALERRT training (Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training) which is basically an active shooter training class. When you get multiple instructors in your PD that have ALERRT Instructor training, they will loan you a big crate full of the necessary Simunition equipment, when you put on a class. This stuff is paid for, by ALERRT, through grant and donation money. This same equipment gets used over and over, by different departments, not cleaned adequately, beat up, and just plain gets old and worn out. The agencies that borrow it don't care about the gear much, because it is just borrowed gear and they never have to use it again. They will get a new random box of old Sim guns, masks, and ammo for their next class. I have never seen a box of new guns and masks, just new ammo, and some of the guns and masks are in REALLY poor condition. 2. Improper use. My Glock 17 Gen 4 Sim conversion upper specifically states in the instructions not to load with more than 10 rounds, or 80% of magazine capacity, whichever is less. I can tell you I have seen at least half the guys running Sim Glocks load with more than 10 rounds. They load em full and this can lead to malfunctions. 3. Reloading chambered rounds. In my experience, when a Sim round goes through a chambering the first time, its pretty reliable. When you chamber a round, but don't use it and eject it, it will sometimes cause the bullet section of the round to become loose or off center and while it may work, or you may be able to recenter a round and get it to work as your first round, already in the chamber, it is much more likely you will have a malfunction when you try to reload that round into a magazine and get it to feed as a 2nd, 3rd round etc. It is common for agencies to take all the unfired rounds in the magazines, including the previously chambered rounds, and put them back into boxes for the next training session. These rounds get loaded randomly into magazines by the next class are far less reliable than fresh rounds. 4. Improper cleaning. Not only does Simunition give you cleaning tools that you are supposed to use every 80-100 rounds max to ensure reliability, but they specifically state the gun should be dry. I have seen newer instructions that state there should be a bore and chamber cleaning every 80 rounds minimum. I have seen uncleaned guns that were supposed to be clean... who knows how many rounds were through those weapons. Dirty Sim guns are not reliable, nor are guns full of oil and grease that pick up bits of dirt, carbon, and plastic. IMO since people clean their real gun lower regularly, but will often only clean the bore and chamber of dedicated Sim guns, this also leads to the conversions being more reliable in my experience. 5. Modified guns. While the Glock conversion has its own slide and spring assembly, they are not designed for use with guns that are highly modified. Your adjustable aftermarket trigger or connector, might cause an issue. While I have seen a conversion modified to take the RMR and still work, and I have personally used an APEX flat trigger with factory trigger bar without issue, Simunition is not guaranteed to work with a non standard gun or sight. This is not the fault of Simunition. 6. Match chambers. While the AR15 bolt and carrier, to convert an M4 type rifle to Simunition, is reliable in a 5.56 chamber, tons of carbon and plastic is not going to work well with a match .223 chamber, cut to minimum headspace and throat dimensions. Your SPR with stainless barrel and .223 chamber is not going to like Simunition ammo and your accuracy with real ammo is going to be off till you get a good cleaning and put some real rounds through the gun to resettle the bore anyway, so why try to run your accuracy AR in Sim training? When used as intended, Simunitions allow you to use your real AR rifle, sling, optics and web gear or your real handgun lower, trigger, and holster, as well as your real duty, CCW or web gear. They eject brass, cycle and make a loud bang, similar to the real thing. They allow for marking of the target, unlike Airsoft, are more accurate than Airsoft, and hurt less than paintballs. |
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Quoted:
I've been thinking about getting some SIM rounds for indoor training but I'm not sure where to start. A lot of the ones I'm seeing need a conversion kit but I've heard there are some out there that don't need a conversion kit. I'm interested in 5.56 and 9mm. If anyone could help me it would be much appreciated. I bought a sim barrel for my 92FS, but we are using converted glocks for a FonF active shooter / room clearing class I'm taking in 4 weeks. |
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