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Posted: 5/15/2018 9:14:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316: I can relate, looking forward to seeing the results... and how the hell is this not a sticky? This is one of the most informative and useful threads on arfcom... |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2018 6:22:53 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swampvol: I agree. |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 4:41:16 PM EDT
[#3]
DAMN! Very nice work! Just saw this via SOFREP.
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Posted: 5/17/2018 4:59:21 PM EDT
[#4]
excellent thread, couldnt decide if i wanted to do a 11.5" suppressed or 16" suppressed. Originally was going to do 16" because i thought muh ballisticzzzz but after the can the gun is super long and seeing this, 11.5" produces better velocities than i thought.
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Posted: 5/17/2018 5:27:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jormungandr:
excellent thread, couldnt decide if i wanted to do a 11.5" suppressed or 16" suppressed. Originally was going to do 16" because i thought muh ballisticzzzz but after the can the gun is super long and seeing this, 11.5" produces better velocities than i thought. It's in your best interests to be more selective in your SD ammo choices with an 11.5" 5.56 barrel, but there's been so much bullet development since GWOT started that 11.5" no longer needs to have a natural handicap in terminal performance. |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 5:31:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eagle_19er: Your type of case is the exact reason I wanted to do the thread in the first place, and why I'm doing one on 6.5 Grendel this summer (12.5" & 18"). It's in your best interests to be more selective in your SD ammo choices with an 11.5" 5.56 barrel, but there's been so much bullet development since GWOT started that 11.5" no longer needs to have a natural handicap in terminal performance. also im glad to hear about the grendel since i also have 12.5" and 18" grendel uppers lol. started at 18" but with a full length rugged surge its stupidly long so i got the 12.5". |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 7:25:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jormungandr: Luckily ive been stock piling ammo that has tested to be good in SBRs so that wasnt an issue when going short. max distance shots here would be 300 yards and in and hunting is probably 50 yards max. Only PITA is asking the atf for permission to travel between states. also im glad to hear about the grendel since i also have 12.5" and 18" grendel uppers lol. started at 18" but with a full length rugged surge its stupidly long so i got the 12.5". |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 7:39:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blackwind:
Why I built a pistol to avoid the headache. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2018 1:28:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swampvol:
I agree. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swampvol:
Originally Posted By BMad316: I can relate, looking forward to seeing the results... and how the hell is this not a sticky? This is one of the most informative and useful threads on arfcom... |
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Posted: 5/23/2018 11:04:16 AM EDT
[#10]
In regards to the OP, keep in mind that those velocities were all obtained with a suppressor, and that shooting through a suppressor boosts and causes higher velocities than shooting without one.
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Posted: 5/23/2018 11:14:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Yes, but isnt it only like a 1-2% increase?
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Posted: 5/23/2018 11:26:07 AM EDT
[#12]
thats probably why it says "SUPPRESSED 5.56 sbr velocity test"
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Posted: 5/23/2018 11:31:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain:
In regards to the OP, keep in mind that those velocities were all obtained with a suppressor, and that shooting through a suppressor boosts and causes higher velocities than shooting without one. Theoretically, if a bullet leaves a barrel at 2500fps unsuppressed, you can expect the same bullet to leave the same barrel at 2525-2538fps while suppressed. Those numbers can also vary based on several internal and external factors. |
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Posted: 5/23/2018 11:39:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swampvol:
Yes, but isnt it only like a 1-2% increase? Shooting 10 rounds of BH 77gr TMK with the suppressor and without a suppressor showed what I consider a significant mean shift that was higher than the SD of the 10 rounds without a suppressor. 2672 fps, sd=5 without suppressor, 2691 fps, sd =5 with the suppressor. Something seemed consistent, though, 10 shot group sizes are smaller with a suppressor vs. without, by quite a bit (1/2 MOA!) |
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CAN
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Posted: 5/24/2018 2:27:25 PM EDT
[#15]
There was less of a difference between 10.5” and the 11.5” than I thought.
I’m glad my Mk18 isn’t as much of a marshmallow blaster as I once thought. |
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Posted: 5/31/2018 8:10:20 PM EDT
[#16]
I know the Black Hills 50 grain TSX wasn't in your test but I'm struggling to choose between it and the 70 for a "go-to" SBR load.
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Posted: 5/31/2018 8:24:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jormungandr]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 762AR25:
I know the Black Hills 50 grain TSX wasn't in your test but I'm struggling to choose between it and the 70 for a "go-to" SBR load. |
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Posted: 5/31/2018 9:25:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGE]
[#18]
Tremendous post, thank you for the time and energy it took to put it all together for us.
I recently got into the short barrel game with a 10.5", and this is a huge help for me to pick and test just one or two rounds instead of a bunch. I'll start with the Fusion given your results. Like a couple guys have said, I'm pleasantly surprised by the 10.5" numbers. GD almost had me believing anything under 11.5" was pretty much worse than having no gun at all 
This isn't scientific at all, but I can say I'm already a believer in Federal Fusion. I shot two deer with the 62gr last year (not the MSR labeled stuff, but believe it's the same bullet) out of a 14.5", and was very pleased with how the bullets performed in action. Good internal damage/trauma on both, with one dropped where he stood, and the other made it 40ish yards on a double lung shot that turned insides to jelly. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/1/2018 5:41:56 AM EDT
[#19]
I say this in seriousness, you should start a GoFundMe. I'd throw in like 5 bucks to see another test.
You'd save me at least that much on the chrono anyway. |
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Posted: 6/1/2018 10:24:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jormungandr: Check out the 62gr tsx also. Friend shot a deer with it last season and it performed great. My thought process so far is: BH 50gr TSX: barrier blind, 1.75/r (5.56! nuts), seems to be the most impressive in gel. A con is that it seems to be made of a harder copper alloy or the petals are stronger to be "barrier blind" so the expansion threshold is rumored to be in the 2300-2400fps range. A possible positive side note could be that if it is a harder alloy it shouldn't copper foul the barrel as badly as other TSX bullets are purported to. 62gr TSX 1900 fps expansion threshold, not as good through barriers as the 50 grain. Possibly inferior wounding characteristics vs 50 grain. 70gr TSX 1800 fps expansion threshold, not as good through barriers as the 50 grain. Possibly inferior wounding characteristics vs 50 grain. I'm really comparing the 50 and 70. The costs aren't as big of an issue because there is nothing saying my OCD would force me to instantly stockpile 2-3k. I'd likely start with a few boxes to get a good zero and confirm function then follow up with enough for a "combat load". 1.75/round for 5.56 is something I never thought I'd see though. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2018 9:16:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Any updates OP?
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Posted: 7/6/2018 1:30:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316:
Any updates OP? |
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Posted: 7/6/2018 2:09:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: themagikbullet]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eagle_19er: Nothing on these tests. I've been working with 6.5 Grendel lately. 
I'm pumped you made that thread! I have a 12" build and I'm gonna do an 18 or 20" bolt gun soon as well. |
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Posted: 7/6/2018 2:49:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By themagikbullet:
I'm pumped you made that thread! I have a 12" build and I'm gonna do an 18 or 20" bolt gun soon as well. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2018 2:56:23 PM EDT
[#25]
So have we decided the best self defense load for a 10.5" barrel? 55gr speer and 70gr TSX looks pretty good.
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Posted: 7/27/2018 3:05:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GataGunner:
So have we decided the best self defense load for a 10.5" barrel? 55gr speer and 70gr TSX looks pretty good. It's no secret here that I chose BH 77gr TMK and 62gr MSR as my main SD loads in short barrels but YMMV. I've also come into some MK318 MOD1 and have bought 64gr GD, XM223SP1 and 77gr OTM in the past. I'd be happy with any of those choices at SD ranges as well. You'd be well served with any of the Speer options and either of the TSX options, assuming they shoot well through your barrels. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2018 6:50:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eagle_19er: I don't think there's one "best" choice. There are simply too many variables to state with any absolute certainty which one is objectively the best. It's no secret here that I chose BH 77gr TMK and 62gr MSR as my main SD loads in short barrels but YMMV. I've also come into some MK318 MOD1 and have bought 64gr GD, XM223SP1 and 77gr OTM in the past. I'd be happy with any of those choices at SD ranges as well. You'd be well served with any of the Speer options and either of the TSX options, assuming they shoot well through your barrels. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/5/2018 9:45:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Great thread and info. Thank you.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2018 3:58:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Thanks for the info OP!
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Posted: 10/26/2018 10:49:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Just glossing over the data it seems like 12.5" is a sweet spot. Generally offers significant increase over 11.5". Yet the increase of 14.5" over 12.5" is generally minimal.
Now I want to build a 12.5". |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 12:28:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Overkill777:
Just glossing over the data it seems like 12.5" is a sweet spot. Generally offers significant increase over 11.5". Yet the increase of 14.5" over 12.5" is generally minimal. Now I want to build a 12.5". The only substantial velocity increase with the 14.5" over the 12.5" , that I noticed, appear only with the 5.56 ball rounds. |
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Posted: 11/6/2018 8:03:07 AM EDT
[#32]
What ammo would be best for a suppressed 11.5” in a HD situation?
Help a lazy idiot out, my mind wanders off trying to read spreadsheets like this |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:22:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NotanATFagent:
What ammo would be best for a suppressed 11.5” in a HD situation? Help a lazy idiot out, my mind wanders off trying to read spreadsheets like this |
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USA
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Posted: 12/16/2018 3:58:06 PM EDT
[#34]
First off great thread op!
I am no expert. The following is my opinion and worth what you paid for it. I run gold dots, 75gr, out of my 10.5 barrel and 16 inch. Lie another poster said they are time tested and reliable and expend at a low FPS. Also keep in mind my application. Civilian, HD/SHTF distances. Which for my home and AO is not very long at all. So combine all of that with the great price PSA sells them at and I’m comfortable with using them. Maybe I’ll start looking at the heavier grain Barnes. Maybe. They looked to be moving out of the 10.5 |
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Posted: 1/21/2019 12:55:03 AM EDT
[#35]
This really should get tacked.
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Posted: 1/21/2019 1:15:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Awesome data.
Would definitely appreciate further research on 16 and 20 inch lengths |
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Posted: 1/21/2019 3:36:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 21BoomCBTENGR:
This really should get tacked. |
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Posted: 1/22/2019 2:13:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RLunyATL:
Seconded |
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Posted: 1/27/2019 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Continues to be one of my favorite threads on Arfcom. Made me decide to move to a 12.5 instead of 11.5 later this year.
Though is it just me or do the 11.5 and 12.5 tend to have greater ES and SD than the 10.5 and 14.5? |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/10/2019 3:49:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Many thanks to you Eagle_19er for sharing all your hard, expensive, and time-consuming work. Just ran across this today. Like sitting down and reading a great book that you never knew existed. Fantastic. Thanks again. Thank you too to others who contributed their data.
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USA
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Posted: 5/8/2019 2:25:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Great thread, I really appreciate all the data and charts you provided. I know it took a lot of work, thank you so much!
This thread is the reason I'm doing a 12.5" build now. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2019 5:42:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 762AR25: I have been looking for data on the BH 50 grain ammo as well as the Barnes 62 and 70. I'm trying to find head to head gel tests for those three rounds but I'm not really finding much on the 62 and 70. My thought process so far is: BH 50gr TSX: barrier blind, 1.75/r (5.56! nuts), seems to be the most impressive in gel. A con is that it seems to be made of a harder copper alloy or the petals are stronger to be "barrier blind" so the expansion threshold is rumored to be in the 2300-2400fps range. A possible positive side note could be that if it is a harder alloy it shouldn't copper foul the barrel as badly as other TSX bullets are purported to. 62gr TSX 1900 fps expansion threshold, not as good through barriers as the 50 grain. Possibly inferior wounding characteristics vs 50 grain. 70gr TSX 1800 fps expansion threshold, not as good through barriers as the 50 grain. Possibly inferior wounding characteristics vs 50 grain. I'm really comparing the 50 and 70. The costs aren't as big of an issue because there is nothing saying my OCD would force me to instantly stockpile 2-3k. I'd likely start with a few boxes to get a good zero and confirm function then follow up with enough for a "combat load". 1.75/round for 5.56 is something I never thought I'd see though. 62gr TSX 
I'm sorry they are not completely head to head, but this is the best I could find on short notice. I will say this, though, the 50gr really runs out of steam pretty fast, with 25m and 100m expanded projectiles looking markedly different, as opposed to 62 and 70gr projectiles, which show little variance from 25 to 100m. If across a room is the job, I may go 50gr. If you need 100m+ performance, 70gr TSX is the one to beat. It just "thumps harder". I think it expands more rapidly as the velocities trail off, based on shooting random things with it, and according to my friends who hunt, it "thumps" game harder than the 62's. This video kindof shows that: 62 and 70gr TSX |
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Posted: 5/22/2019 1:45:27 AM EDT
[#43]
@Eagle_19er
I can’t find the thread where you posted your 6.5G research, is it still around? |
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Posted: 5/22/2019 2:53:28 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 5/22/2019 11:16:17 PM EDT
[#45]
Wish this could just get tacked. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve referenced this thread.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2019 11:02:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty:
Wish this could just get tacked. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve referenced this thread. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/6/2019 10:57:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Just want to thank @Eagle_19er again for this data.
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Posted: 7/7/2019 10:05:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty:
Wish this could just get tacked. I've lost track of how many times I've referenced this thread. Can we get this tacked? |
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Posted: 7/7/2019 11:34:29 AM EDT
[#49]
I added it to the Ammo FAQ for easy reference.
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USA
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Posted: 7/7/2019 3:53:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lightstriker]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov:
I added it to the Ammo FAQ for easy reference. ETA: Damn, that reads really douchy, no offense was meant. |
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