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Posted: 3/24/2014 5:40:10 AM EDT
| I opened a can of bulk packed LC 10 XM855 and was greeted with a hint of toe jam and jock strap instead of the sweet smell of ether.. It was okay when I last got into it 3 or 4 months ago. It has been stored in a cool, dry basement since I got it several years ago. I'm not worried since I have stinky LC 71 carbine ammo that still shoots well, but it seems like it is aging fast. Any one else noticed that on LC 10? I see some shoot-em-up range time and reloading for the next month. |
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so smell is a indicator of ammo quality? I thought it was a indication of packing condition.  It indicates something in the powder has changed. If an organic chemical compound goes from sweet to sour that is generally an indication that it has oxidized. Powder should oxidize the instant you pull the trigger, not in a can over time. How much it changes performance in military center fire cartridges, I don't know. I've never seen any definitive testing done on this subject. What I do know is that I bought some 1985 mfg, Eley Tenex a couple years back. It stunk to high heaven. It shot on par with Remington Golden Bullets. The only bad deal I've ever received from the CMP. Indication of packing condition? Could be. But, I have LC 69 M2 ball that I've been using over the years that is still sweet.under the same conditions as the not so hot LC 71 carbine. I'm thinking something else in involved. If someone else is seeing the same thing, then its the ammo. If not, maybe I got a spot of bad karma in the basement. |
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Quoted: It indicates something in the powder has changed. If an organic chemical compound goes from sweet to sour that is generally an indication that it has oxidized. Powder should oxidize the instant you pull the trigger, not in a can over time. How much it changes performance in military center fire cartridges, I don't know. I've never seen any definitive testing done on this subject. |
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I find the naivety here astounding. Yes, ball powders will break down over time - some faster than others depending on lot # and storage conditions. Even nitrocellulose goes bad over time. Deterioration of old movie films shows that. Look it up.
Yes, ball powder has an odor. Ball powders have dinitrotoluene and diphenylamine added in significant amounts as binding agents, antioxidants, and burn rate modifiers. Look it up. As a class, those are aromatic chemical compounds. "Aromatic" means they smell nice. Ask anyone who reloads what a newly opened can of IMR4895 smells like. The a fore mentioned chemicals are solid, their decomp products are gas, Gas diffuses out of the cartridge over time, hence the smell, especially if the off gas is collected in a sealed ammo can over a period of years. As the stabilizing and antioxidant agents are lost, other degradation processes occur. In the extreme, those process can cause the case to corrode from the inside, cement the projectile to the case, and result in blown cases, ruined actions and blood loss. Ask around over at Jouster & CMP forums. Leave your attitude here or those (us) old farts will kiss you off and let you find out the hard way.. Re commie block ammo: Vodka - all is well. Cat piss - starting to go bad. Thus endeth the lesson. |
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I find the naivety here astounding. Yes, ball powders will break down over time - some faster than others depending on lot # and storage conditions. Even nitrocellulose goes bad over time. Deterioration of old movie films shows that. Look it up. Yes, ball powder has an odor. Ball powders have dinitrotoluene and diphenylamine added in significant amounts as binding agents, antioxidants, and burn rate modifiers. Look it up. As a class, those are aromatic chemical compounds. "Aromatic" means they smell nice. Ask anyone who reloads what a newly opened can of IMR4895 smells like. The a fore mentioned chemicals are solid, their decomp products are gas, Gas diffuses out of the cartridge over time, hence the smell, especially if the off gas is collected in a sealed ammo can over a period of years. As the stabilizing and antioxidant agents are lost, other degradation processes occur. In the extreme, those process can cause the case to corrode from the inside, cement the projectile to the case, and result in blown cases, ruined actions and blood loss. Ask around over at Jouster & CMP forums. Leave your attitude here or those (us) old farts will kiss you off and let you find out the hard way.. Re commie block ammo: Vodka - all is well. Cat piss - starting to go bad. Thus endeth the lesson. Agree 100%, All ammo can go bad depending on age and storage conditions. I've pulled down Lake City .50bmg ammo loaded with APIT projos that had gone bad, smelled like vinegar/ piss and the insides of the brass were starting to get corroded. Luckily it wasn't a large amount and the loss was minimal. The powder had caked inside the cartridges and had become a solidified mess. The projos had corroded badly at their bases and contaminated the insides of the cartridges. The ammo did out gas into the can and thats what alerted me to the small lot going bad. When I shoot any .50bmg now,(single shot rifle) I shake the cartridge to hear the powder inside and if it doesn't sound right, I set it aside and pull it. If its still good, I re seat the bullet and shoot it. Keep a close eye on old surplus stuff of any caliber. 
As a rule though the stuff lasts a very long time if stored well. |
| I've shot surplus from the 20's and lots from the 30's, 40's 50's up to 90's production( Ammo wasn't hermetically sealed until the 70's mind you so most was exposed to it's environment all that time). I've never seen the powder go bad just the primers (ok, there was a case of 1950's Chinese 54r I bought that had been stored underwater and the powder looked pretty bad, couldn't test it though because the primers were all dead,lol and maybe some 40's carcano ammo, stored improperly), I think you guys are over thinking this crap. Not to mention you can't smell powder sealed into a cartridge, certainly not a milspec cartridge that has sealant in the neck and primer. Now if you store it in an open container in a damp environment you are asking for it. That being said I just shot up 500 rounds of 1990's Winchester white box ammo that had been spilled out of a rotten cardboard box that I put in the barn in 2007. Some of the ammo boxes had rotted and stuck to the cartridges (dirt floor barn), and guess what, I cleaned them off and they fired and functioned perfectly. Not that that is something you should do, but it happened. Certainly ammo made in this decade is not going to go bad in a sealed container unless it was manufactured incorrectly and that is highly unlikely. |
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I find the naivety here astounding. Yes, ball powders will break down over time - some faster than others depending on lot # and storage conditions. Even nitrocellulose goes bad over time. Deterioration of old movie films shows that. Look it up. Yes, ball powder has an odor. Ball powders have dinitrotoluene and diphenylamine added in significant amounts as binding agents, antioxidants, and burn rate modifiers. Look it up. As a class, those are aromatic chemical compounds. "Aromatic" means they smell nice. Ask anyone who reloads what a newly opened can of IMR4895 smells like. The a fore mentioned chemicals are solid, their decomp products are gas, Gas diffuses out of the cartridge over time, hence the smell, especially if the off gas is collected in a sealed ammo can over a period of years. As the stabilizing and antioxidant agents are lost, other degradation processes occur. In the extreme, those process can cause the case to corrode from the inside, cement the projectile to the case, and result in blown cases, ruined actions and blood loss. Ask around over at Jouster & CMP forums. Leave your attitude here or those (us) old farts will kiss you off and let you find out the hard way.. Re commie block ammo: Vodka - all is well. Cat piss - starting to go bad. Thus endeth the lesson. thus beginneth the IGNORE |
| Sure, powder can break down. But if you can smell the powder in your intact, loaded rounds, you have more problems than the ammo being "stale." When a bullet and primer are installed in a case, the powder is very thoroughly sealed inside the case, and you simply cannot smell anything about the powder. |
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Sure, powder can break down. But if you can smell the powder in your intact, loaded rounds, you have more problems than the ammo being "stale." When a bullet and primer are installed in a case, the powder is very thoroughly sealed inside the case, and you simply cannot smell anything about the powder. As much as you think you know and as much as you think you are correct in your "assumption" of facts, Someday you will know enough to admit to yourself that your above statement is wrong. |
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First some reading comprehension is needed. Were not saying rounds don't go bad. They can and do, given poor storage conditions, water intrusion, oil intrusion. We won't agree that rounds simply go bad sitting in proper storage. They don't oxidize to badness. It's packaging he's smelling. Hell it's probably the rubber gasket on the ammo box, those things stink. Your not gonna smell bad rounds unless something is really wrong, and it's not gonna be from just age.
Again, I've shot surplus older then my dad, a crap ton of it. My dad has powder he's been loading with for decades out of the same keg and it chronos just as it should. You had old .50 apit? Know what storage was like all those years before you? You realize when the phosphorus in the bullet gets any water seeped into it they go all to hell? It's not cause it was OP stated rounds go bad just sitting on their own. They don't, generally. Dude, chill. Dumping on guys like porter isn't a good idea, way more knowledge then you've shown. |
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I dunno,
maybe the .gov really did get the ammo companies to make a deteriorating, self destructing ammo. Wasn't the rumour that the components would start to break down after 2 years? 
Happily, none of my ammo cans of ammo have any symptoms. While I also know ammo can go bad. this ammo is less than 4 years old, and if stored as the OP states, seems to me it should not be going "stale" already. I have LC M855 that is older than that, and it is still sitting in ammo cans, happy as a clam. Perhaps the OP should contact Federal. OP, what is the Lot# 
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There's no way you can smell the powder inside a bunch of intact rounds. You're probably smelling the result of whatever was in the air the last time you sealed up the can. Not to be argumentative but I can smell Varget plain as day whenever I open a MTM box of 100 308 rounds that I haven't opened in a few months. I love the smell of Varget 
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Quote from tigermilk "thus beginneth the IGNORE" Willful ignorance, the most self defeating condition a person can be in. Someday you'll realize that you don't know as much as you think you do, and that a lot of what you do think you know isn't correct. oh boy, another fool to ignore.... |
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As much as you think you know and as much as you think you are correct in your "assumption" of facts, Someday you will know enough to admit to yourself that your above statement is wrong. Quoted:
Quoted:
Sure, powder can break down. But if you can smell the powder in your intact, loaded rounds, you have more problems than the ammo being "stale." When a bullet and primer are installed in a case, the powder is very thoroughly sealed inside the case, and you simply cannot smell anything about the powder. As much as you think you know and as much as you think you are correct in your "assumption" of facts, Someday you will know enough to admit to yourself that your above statement is wrong. I would say that your statement would require better support than mine. GI ammunition is sealed at both the primer and case mouth, and has to pass a water submersion test that proves it's sealed. How, do tell, could an odor get out of those cases if air cannot bubble out of them under water? Believe what you will. I have presented factual data and you disagree and call me wrong. So be it. Enjoy spending money you don't need to spend to replace ammunition that isn't failing for the reason you state. |
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I opened a can of bulk packed LC 10 XM855 and was greeted with a hint of toe jam and jock strap instead of the sweet smell of ether.. It was okay when I last got into it 3 or 4 months ago. It has been stored in a cool, dry basement since I got it several years ago. I'm not worried since I have stinky LC 71 carbine ammo that still shoots well, but it seems like it is aging fast. Any one else noticed that on LC 10? I see some shoot-em-up range time and reloading for the next month. 
Yeah... That hard four years indoors in controlled conditions in a sealed ammo can just ate that mil-spec alive. |
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