AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/9/2013 1:49:29 PM EDT
| My best friend runs a metal shop and we were discussing the ammunition shortage today. He reloads ammo as a hobby and I suggested that he set up part of his shop to manufacture ammo and sell that to help meet the demands we have...he shrugged and said he has no clue what kind of legal and licensing roadblocks he'd encounter and that he'd be interested if I did the research for him. What is involved in setting up shop to manufacture and sell ammo? All I know is he needs some kind of license from the ATF. Anything else? Only other issue is that his personal reloading tools are not very fancy and he'd probably have to buy some new tools to do any serious production numbers. |
|
good luck buying bullets....I have always reloaded my 308, 300, 338 of 50 but cant find any .30 cal bullets for the 308 and 300
Good luck finding .223 dia bullets Lucky I had about 5K of the 308, 338 and 223 and plenty of virgin brass plus primers. Power doesn't seem to be a shortage as of yet But if your friend doesn't have at least 10,000 bullets and brass and primers no need in even thinking about it for a few more months. Ammo is starting to come in, so is pmags and uppers now- at all my LGS. My LGS today had 42 complete ar15 and the other one had 29 complete ar15. They are not flying off the shelf like they were and Pmags were still available as well. Ammo is coming back just give it a little more time because the nuts are running out of money 
Don't forget the storage of the powered and the limit. By the time he got all the paperwork out of the way and stocked up the frenzy will be over. |
|
The cost of start up would be something to consider. Licenses, liability insurance, components and loading equipment that will produce the volume of ammunition that would allow you to sell at reasonable prices could be a costly.
Components will be scarce for a while; the manufactures will use all of the primers, bullets, powder etc. to build ammunition. Why sell the components when you need them to build ammunition to answer the increased demand? When ammo returns to the shelves, then they will begin to release components to the reloaders. |
| Seems like the only way to go is start from scratch....make the primers, make the bullets and manufacture the powder. That's a whole lot to undertake. I'd look at a way to import or make primers or bullets. It's a good way to start. Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind..... |
|
Seems like the only way to go is start from scratch....make the primers, make the bullets and manufacture the powder. That's a whole lot to undertake. I'd look at a way to import or make primers or bullets. It's a good way to start. Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind.....
Do you really have any idea what all of this would involve? |
|
The "shrug" is an indication that your friend isn't motivated.
If it's your dream, you live it. Do the research, formulate a business plan. One with the potential for long term success. By the time the market settles down, you can pick up surplus equipment from the guys who thought they would get rich quick buying it during the panic. From what I've seen, a commercial reloading press + dies and misc runs about $20,000 per station new, and cranks out approx 1 round per second. As for forming the bullet rounds themselves, you are talking major money and large amounts of R&D to get it right. Also, consider the fact that lead is a known health hazard and I would bet their are regulatory hurdles in opening a facility that deals with lead based products. Not to mention, another major input is powder, an explosive. There will be rules dealing with safe handling of that as well. Then there is the matter of your waste products. You have to clean the brass if you use fired shells. Ultrasonic cleaning seems to produce good results and isn't as loud or slow as tumbling, but you have to discharge the waste from it. If you are going to produce quality reloads, you'll probably want to anneal the brass, and now you have lots of heat and gas. If you do bother to develop a complete business plan, then you'll want to go after the low hanging fruit. In the current environment, if you can produce *QUALITY* reloads then you should be able to sell them, and you wont have to deal with the lead manufacturing headaches. But your reloads had better be high quality, otherwise, you'll explode peoples guns and potentially hurt someone. This means you have to monitor and control parameters with precision, track and test each batch, keep records, etc. ( ie cover your ass ) Running a manufacturing facility != reloading some rounds for personal use. It's real work, and requires full time attention and organizational skills and capital. My 2 cents. ps. You can watch videos on youtube of how they turn lead billet and copper sheet into bullets. It involves large hydraulic presses and dies and it's not cheap or easy to start from nothing. |
|
Quoted:
The "shrug" is an indication that your friend isn't motivated. If it's your dream, you live it. Do the research, formulate a business plan. One with the potential for long term success. By the time the market settles down, you can pick up surplus equipment from the guys who thought they would get rich quick buying it during the panic. From what I've seen, a commercial reloading press + dies and misc runs about $20,000 per station new, and cranks out approx 1 round per second. As for forming the bullet rounds themselves, you are talking major money and large amounts of R&D to get it right. Also, consider the fact that lead is a known health hazard and I would bet their are regulatory hurdles in opening a facility that deals with lead based products. Not to mention, another major input is powder, an explosive. There will be rules dealing with safe handling of that as well. Then there is the matter of your waste products. You have to clean the brass if you use fired shells. Ultrasonic cleaning seems to produce good results and isn't as loud or slow as tumbling, but you have to discharge the waste from it. If you are going to produce quality reloads, you'll probably want to anneal the brass, and now you have lots of heat and gas. If you do bother to develop a complete business plan, then you'll want to go after the low hanging fruit. In the current environment, if you can produce *QUALITY* reloads then you should be able to sell them, and you wont have to deal with the lead manufacturing headaches. But your reloads had better be high quality, otherwise, you'll explode peoples guns and potentially hurt someone. This means you have to monitor and control parameters with precision, track and test each batch, keep records, etc. ( ie cover your ass ) Running a manufacturing facility != reloading some rounds for personal use. It's real work, and requires full time attention and organizational skills and capital. My 2 cents. ps. You can watch videos on youtube of how they turn lead billet and copper sheet into bullets. It involves large hydraulic presses and dies and it's not cheap or easy to start from nothing. I would love to do something like that, but the reason I'm pushing him is because he already has a shop and several huge hydraulic presses which I'm sure could probably be tuned or adapted to use for manufacture of ammo. He already has techniques to copper-plate stuff he makes and it seems like he is really halfway there when it comes to equipment needed and space (and buying power). Personally, I only have about $20,000/year to spend on business stuff outside of my communications business and would probably have to take out a pretty nasty loan...if the banks would even offer it! I know the demand will decrease again in a couple months...but as the 2014 congressional elections get closer, people will freak out again because of the chance of republicans losing seats and the dems taking full control of the government -- expect another ammo shortage shortly after this one ends! If the dems do take seats, it will be all-out mass hysteria with gun and ammo purchases and the factories will have no chance to keep up. The ammo shortage would be unending right up until the dems shut all the gun and ammo factories down...either way, they have made a massive profit (and rightly so!) up until they get shut down. For my buddy, it would simply mean retooling again to make doorknobs and such. |
|
Quoted:
I would love to do something like that, but the reason I'm pushing him is because he already has a shop and several huge hydraulic presses which I'm sure could probably be tuned or adapted to use for manufacture of ammo. He already has techniques to copper-plate stuff he makes and it seems like he is really halfway there when it comes to equipment needed and space (and buying power). Personally, I only have about $20,000/year to spend on business stuff outside of my communications business and would probably have to take out a pretty nasty loan...if the banks would even offer it! I know the market will slow down again in a couple months...but as the 2014 congressional elections get closer, people will freak out again because of the chance of republicans losing seats and the dems taking full control of the government. If the dems do take seats, it will be all-out mass hysteria with gun and ammo purchases and the factories will have no chance to keep up. The ammo shortage would be unending right up until the dems shut all the gun and ammo factories down...either way, they have made a massive profit (and rightly so!) up until they get shut down. For my buddy, it would simply mean retooling again to make doorknobs and such. Having the presses and the shop space is certainly a good start, especially if his presses are underutilized. As for "copper plating" you mentioned, I don't believe bullets are copper plated, except perhaps by home hobbyists. The videos I've seen on youtube show the copper jackets being unrolled from large 100+ 1000+ pound feedstock rolls and "stamped" into small copper cups. The copper cups go through a series of heat treatment / die forming, until some point where they have the lead cores inserted. The lead cores start out as 80+ pound round lead billets, and are pressed through a die and formed into lead wire and rolled up. They are then fed through another machine that cuts the wire into the inserts. NRA / Hornady - How Bullets are Made How Stuff Works - Bullets - Sierra Camdex Case Processor - Everglades Ammo Despite supply chain disruptions of brass and bullets atm, I think it would be simpler to start as a reloader, and work your way up to being a complete manufacturer. The startup costs and effort are alot lower, and you could start selling product sooner. Just my perception, not speaking from experience in ammunition industry. Also, you would need a set of SAAMI test barrels and a universal receiver and equipment to data log your testing from each batch. Test Barrels More Test Barrels / Stuff They say boats are holes in the water you sink money into. The same can be said about manufacturing start ups. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would love to do something like that, but the reason I'm pushing him is because he already has a shop and several huge hydraulic presses which I'm sure could probably be tuned or adapted to use for manufacture of ammo. He already has techniques to copper-plate stuff he makes and it seems like he is really halfway there when it comes to equipment needed and space (and buying power). Personally, I only have about $20,000/year to spend on business stuff outside of my communications business and would probably have to take out a pretty nasty loan...if the banks would even offer it! I know the market will slow down again in a couple months...but as the 2014 congressional elections get closer, people will freak out again because of the chance of republicans losing seats and the dems taking full control of the government. If the dems do take seats, it will be all-out mass hysteria with gun and ammo purchases and the factories will have no chance to keep up. The ammo shortage would be unending right up until the dems shut all the gun and ammo factories down...either way, they have made a massive profit (and rightly so!) up until they get shut down. For my buddy, it would simply mean retooling again to make doorknobs and such. Having the presses and the shop space is certainly a good start, especially if his presses are underutilized. As for "copper plating" you mentioned, I don't believe bullets are copper plated, except perhaps by home hobbyists. The videos I've seen on youtube show the copper jackets being unrolled from large 100+ 1000+ pound feedstock rolls and "stamped" into small copper cups. The copper cups go through a series of heat treatment / die forming, until some point where they have the lead cores inserted. The lead cores start out as 80+ pound round lead billets, and are pressed through a die and formed into lead wire and rolled up. They are then fed through another machine that cuts the wire into the inserts. NRA / Hornady - How Bullets are Made How Stuff Works - Bullets - Sierra Camdex Case Processor - Everglades Ammo Despite supply chain disruptions of brass and bullets atm, I think it would be simpler to start as a reloader, and work your way up to being a complete manufacturer. The startup costs and effort are alot lower, and you could start selling product sooner. Just my perception, not speaking from experience in ammunition industry. Also, you would need a set of SAAMI test barrels and a universal receiver and equipment to data log your testing from each batch. Test Barrels More Test Barrels / Stuff They say boats are holes in the water you sink money into. The same can be said about manufacturing start ups.
LoL, indeed. B.O.A.T. (But Only Another Thousand) I greatly appreciate your help and advice. I am not sure what he'll do because he really seems on the fence, but I hate when our hobby is hindered by politics and lack of supply. Thanks again! |
|
As for "copper plating" you mentioned, I don't believe bullets are copper plated, except perhaps by home hobbyists. The videos I've seen on youtube show the copper jackets being unrolled from large 100+ 1000+ pound feedstock rolls and "stamped" into small copper cups. The copper cups go through a series of heat treatment / die forming, until some point where they have the lead cores inserted. Ranier and Berry's bullets are both copper plated. That is why they need to be loaded at less than max powder loads/velocities. |
AR Sponsor