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Posted: 11/25/2010 2:14:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Question. The prvi partisan M193 tested here is different from the Monarch red box 223 (made by prvi also)? Made by the same people, packaged differently. Can you post a pic of the headstamp of the Monarch ammo? |
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Posted: 11/25/2010 10:02:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fadedsun]
[#2]
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Question. The prvi partisan M193 tested here is different from the Monarch red box 223 (made by prvi also)? Made by the same people, packaged differently. Can you post a pic of the headstamp of the Monarch ammo? 
Upside down. PPU 223 REM |
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Posted: 11/26/2010 11:07:23 AM EDT
[#3]
great thread and it makes me feel much better. I always got the impression that people were getting sub 2" groups at 100 yards with this 'mil spec' ammo when I was first getting into the AR world. I could never get close to one or two MOA and now I feel vindicated I guess. Great insight as always Molon.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 12/20/2010 7:52:08 PM EDT
[#4]
In trying to view this thread there seem to be a number of images and charts that I cannot see in the original post. I can see the picture of the Monarch on page 3, but that's all. Any idea's? Are the links to the original images/charts broken perhaps. Specifically I was locking for the velocity data.
Thx. |
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Posted: 12/23/2010 12:07:57 PM EDT
[#5]
M855 data combined into the top of this thread.
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Posted: 12/23/2010 12:12:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Originally Posted By GHPorter: GASP!!! You mean, the Internet lied?!?!?! Well what do you know...evidence over "common knowledge." Thanks for the specific and detailed experiment to demonstrate "AR Fallacy #3: 55 grain bullets fail in a 1:7 barrel." I remember shooting 55gr ammo exclusively through my Colt AR15A2 with it's 1/7 barrel back in the early 90s. That WAS the heaviest ammo available anywhere locally unless you paid BIG bucks for Canadian SS109/M855 or Samson IMI 70gr FMJ. And yet I've been told repeatedly on this board that that's not possible. The Armalite rep. just told me that in a thread a couple weeks ago. When I told him Molon has disproved that over and over, I was told essentially that the owner of Armalite has done the real scientific testing and I'm assuming, Molon's posts mean nothing. They love their 1/9 twist over there at Armalite. *shrug* |
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Posted: 12/23/2010 4:09:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
They love their easily obtained and cheaper than sticking to a standard 1/9 twist over there at Armalite. *shrug* Fixed it. Still, you can always cherry pick bullet types that will spin apart in fast twist barrel to "prove" the point. |
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Posted: 12/23/2010 4:16:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Question. The prvi partisan M193 tested here is different from the Monarch red box 223 (made by prvi also)? Made by the same people, packaged differently. Can you post a pic of the headstamp of the Monarch ammo? http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u339/kcimb/100_2208.jpg http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u339/kcimb/100_2210.jpg Upside down. PPU 223 REM Yes its different. The M193 is 5.56 ammunition the monarch is .223. The M193 has a headstamp of 5.56 PPU |
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Posted: 1/16/2011 2:35:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#9]
Originally Posted By glee: In trying to view this thread there seem to be a number of images and charts that I cannot see in the original post. I can see the picture of the Monarch on page 3, but that's all. Any idea's? Are the links to the original images/charts broken perhaps. Specifically I was locking for the velocity data. Thx. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2011 10:40:02 AM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
GASP!!! You mean, the Internet lied?!?!?! Well what do you know...evidence over "common knowledge." Thanks for the specific and detailed experiment to demonstrate "AR Fallacy #3: 55 grain bullets fail in a 1:7 barrel." I remember shooting 55gr ammo exclusively through my Colt AR15A2 with it's 1/7 barrel back in the early 90s. That WAS the heaviest ammo available anywhere locally unless you paid BIG bucks for Canadian SS109/M855 or Samson IMI 70gr FMJ. And yet I've been told repeatedly on this board that that's not possible. The Armalite rep. just told me that in a thread a couple weeks ago. When I told him Molon has disproved that over and over, I was told essentially that the owner of Armalite has done the real scientific testing and I'm assuming, Molon's posts mean nothing. They love their 1/9 twist over there at Armalite. *shrug* He's just promoting what he has and dissing what he doesn't have...oldest salesman's trick in the book. |
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Posted: 2/28/2011 4:06:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By lapster:
Molon, Simply put, your reviews rock! Your selfless efforts to bring us all real deal data we can use to make informed decisions is way worth the price of admission. Contributions like yours help make Arfcom the awesome site that it is. Thank You Sir!  +1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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USA
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Posted: 7/20/2011 11:09:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Molon,
Thank You ! This was good data and I found it useful. It also explains why I can't shoot any 10 shot groups tighter than 2 1/2" at 100 yards with M193 ball out of my 1:9 chrome line barreled 16" carbine. I would be stretching the truth to say I can consistently do this. I chronongraphed some loads out of my 16" RRA chrome lined 1:9 barrel and the same loads out of my 16" RRA chrome moly 1:9 barrel. The velocities were the same ! I thought the chrome lined barrel was suppose to be a little more slippery and I should have seen a rise in muzzle velocity. Can you shed any light on this ? Sailor |
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Posted: 9/26/2011 6:07:09 PM EDT
[#13]
I never saw a "no 55 gr + 1:7" post at arfcom. I have heard it at the gunshop. Near as I can figure out, it comes from the history that heavy (long) bullets can't be fired from slow barrels, and the conclusion is that light (short) bullets cant be fired from fast barrels. I have heard stories of disintegrations for overspun projos, but then again I live not far from Arma Lite......
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USA
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Posted: 9/27/2011 5:34:42 PM EDT
[#14]
I have fired quite a few 55g rounds (several hundred) out of a 1:7 twist barrel rifle at 200 yards. I always had the correct number of holes in my target when I checked and I never noticed any of the rounds coming apart. One thing I did notice using my 1:7 barrel was that my groups were alot tighter when shooting 62g-69g projectiles in the prone position. That's why I used the 55g ammuniton to practice offhand and the heavier rounds to practice sitting and prone. I wobbled so much standing that I didn't notice any difference.
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USA
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Posted: 6/10/2012 11:31:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MeatAxe556]
[#15]
Bought some Federal XM193 and XM193F at Academy today for $7.99/ box of 20 (seems to be fairly cheap in todays market).
Opened one box of each and noticed that the F seemed to have more tarnish blemishes on the cases that the regular XM193. In general the Federal XM193 cases seen to have more blemishes than say IMI M193, which is bright and shiny. Otherwise, both the XM193 and XM193F ammo is all annealed and has NATO headstamps. Maybe this is what differentiates the XM193s from regular M193 –– XM193 is rejected from military use for cosmetic reasons? Hopefully, if anything, it's just cosmetic and the XM ammo is otherwise GTG. They also had 1,000 rd. cases of XM193BK for $399.99, but have heard that this has had a number of failures to fire, so stayed away from it. No real price break for the 1,000 round case vs. the 20 rd. boxes @ $7.99/ea. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/11/2012 12:07:13 PM EDT
[#16]
good read
I've got quite a random collection of "M193" and now I have less to worry about. |
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Posted: 9/21/2013 10:02:30 PM EDT
[#17]
bump
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Posted: 12/31/2013 10:20:14 PM EDT
[#18]
I shot some Federal XM-193 last weekend from a 20" BCM 1/7 government barrel. Here's what I got with 10 shots at 100 yards using a rest, rear bag, and a SWFA SS 10x optic
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Posted: 6/8/2014 11:42:37 AM EDT
[#19]
Great read as always.
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Posted: 6/20/2014 2:13:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OdDuMet]
[#20]
Molon you have helped me feel better about my personal experiences in shooting over many many years.
I have always shot 5 shot groups, and I have found that a gun/ammo combo that will consistently keep all 5 shots under 1", shooting multiple 5 shot groups, is pretty dang rare. I have always considered it very good, and more importantly, good enough for me and my purposes. Back in the day when I used to read all the gun magazines it was considered a benchmark of excellent accuracy. On the internet these days, we hear of people shooting under MOA or even 1/2 MOA groups constantly, often with run of the mill average quality guns and ammo. I've always thought that they're probably FOS, but maybe, just maybe it's me. If a knowledgeable and experienced person shooting from machine rest bolt action test barrels thinks 1.5" 10 shot groups at 100yds is pretty good, then it is. End of story for me. I think the 10 shot group also helps explain the "flier" phenomenon very well too. Every time I've seen a "called flier" taken out of a group measurement in magazines or the internet, I've wanted to puke. Next time I get aggravated by 5 shot group with a flier, I'll just start shooting 10. Thanks for all your work and sharing it. |
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Posted: 6/21/2014 9:03:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
I shot some Federal XM-193 last weekend from a 20" BCM 1/7 government barrel. Here's what I got with 10 shots at 100 yards using a rest, rear bag, and a SWFA SS 10x optic http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/5205/59537.JPG That's pretty darn good for XM193. Good shootin'. |
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Posted: 2/19/2015 11:40:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Perhaps Wolf Gold should be thrown into the mix.
Here's my 100 yrd result with Wolf Gold 55, shot off a bench with a BCM 16" Midlength 1/7 pencil barrel upper, SS10x scope. bottom group:  |
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Posted: 2/19/2015 11:55:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Has anyone ever sorted their factory M193 for runout (bullet seated off-center in the case)?
I read through this interesting thread about accuracy improvements when separating ammo with a concentricity gage and wonder if the same applies to 5.56 in a semi-auto. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/433618_Forster_seating_die_is_the_best__don_t_go_buying_any_other_for_precision_loading_____here_s_why_.html |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2015 11:09:12 PM EDT
[#24]
I bought a case of Fed XM193 with LC08 head stamps. I found many off-center bullets and ended up checking every round and pulling the off-center ones, about 5%. It all shot OK and I couldn't tell if the off-center bullets actually hurt accuracy or to what extent. I typically get 2.5-3MOA with XM193. I have had best accuracy with the LC12 and LC13 head stamps, getting a few sub 2MOA groups.
Has anyone else experience any variation between the XM193 lots? |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 8:58:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Thank you Molon! Awesome test and write up.
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Posted: 3/1/2015 6:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I bought a case of Fed XM193 with LC08 head stamps. I found many off-center bullets and ended up checking every round and pulling the off-center ones, about 5%. It's not uncommon to find rounds of Federal XM193 with a seated bullet run-out of 0.007" or more. 
.... |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2015 7:22:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Just wanna say this is one of my all-time favorite threads on Arfcom. I've lost track of the number of times I've read through it these past 4 years. Thanks Molon.
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UT, USA
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Posted: 3/25/2015 11:21:21 AM EDT
[#28]
I just brought a friend here to extol the virtues and saw all the picture are broken.
 NOooooooooooooooooo...
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/25/2015 2:40:19 PM EDT
[#29]
thank you very much for your due diligence.
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Posted: 3/25/2015 2:51:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GI-45:
Just wanna say this is one of my all-time favorite threads on Arfcom. I've lost track of the number of times I've read through it these past 4 years. Thanks Molon. At least I am not the only one that rereads Molons posts !! Molon , As always thanks for taking the time and effort to help educate us "Gunny Folk". |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 5:43:43 AM EDT
[#31]
YESSIR!
DAMN fine stuff, Molon. Thanks! Carry on... |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 8:11:06 PM EDT
[#32]
new year bump
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Posted: 1/27/2016 9:27:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BeNotAfraid:
DAMN fine stuff, Molon. Thanks! De rien. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2016 11:59:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Molon,
have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? just asking because i'm thinking about doing an informal test between XM193, CBC (Brazil) M193 and a couple of others |
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Posted: 2/13/2016 1:13:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu:
Molon, have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? That I've posted on the Net, just the PMC Bronze and Wolf Gold. |
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Posted: 2/14/2016 1:02:43 AM EDT
[#36]
Bookmarking.
Thank you for your time, and your investment in proper measuring equipment. |
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Posted: 3/6/2016 7:56:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu:
Molon, have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? Now on the The List. 
.... |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2016 7:39:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon:
Now on the The List. https://app.box.com/shared/static/bmonv9hu40olin6zl09pda57r85yfi81.jpg .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Molon, have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? Now on the The List. https://app.box.com/shared/static/bmonv9hu40olin6zl09pda57r85yfi81.jpg .... Hahaha! About time you tested this round Molon! I think you will be very pleased with it. It is my favorite range only ammo and a very good performer for 55 grn FMJ. Can't say enough about this round as it has performed very well in my AR rifles. Next on "the List" should be CBC 55 grn FMJ.
Thank you for what you do, and the enthusiasm and effort you put into your testing! |
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Posted: 3/20/2016 3:55:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03Jet:
Hahaha! About time you tested this round Molon! I think you will be very pleased with it. It is my favorite range only ammo and a very good performer for 55 grn FMJ. Can't say enough about this round as it has performed very well in my AR rifles. Next on "the List" should be CBC 55 grn FMJ.
Thank you for what you do, and the enthusiasm and effort you put into your testing! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03Jet:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Molon, have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? Now on the The List. https://app.box.com/shared/static/bmonv9hu40olin6zl09pda57r85yfi81.jpg .... Hahaha! About time you tested this round Molon! I think you will be very pleased with it. It is my favorite range only ammo and a very good performer for 55 grn FMJ. Can't say enough about this round as it has performed very well in my AR rifles. Next on "the List" should be CBC 55 grn FMJ.
Thank you for what you do, and the enthusiasm and effort you put into your testing! Also on The List . . . 
.... |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2016 2:27:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Cool, nice find. Hope it works out well for you. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between the two. If anyone can form an intelligent synopsis on the difference, I'm sure you will bring it to the table. |
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Posted: 3/21/2016 8:51:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03Jet: Cool, nice find. Hope it works out well for you. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between the two. If anyone can form an intelligent synopsis on the difference, I'm sure you will bring it to the table. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/30/2016 8:07:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
More than likely the velocity of the 5.56 should be higher. When I tested the .223, I was getting what I normally see in 55gr .223 Loadings: 2,800 from 16" barrel. I need to pick up some of the 5.56. I can tell you the .223 had one hell of a crimp on the brass, making it very fun to pull : Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Originally Posted By 03Jet:
Cool, nice find. Hope it works out well for you. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between the two. If anyone can form an intelligent synopsis on the difference, I'm sure you will bring it to the table. Thank you Buffman, I noticed the crimp too, stout to say the least. I wonder if it is a true M193 bullet or if they use the same as the .223, (since it claims NATO specs). It has been rumored that the .223 bullet has a thick jacket. Never saw any data on this, nor have I seen any gel tests. It still remains my favorite range ammo, the .223 loading. Never heard of the NATO load until this thread. Also thanks for all the vids on ammo velocity. I like how you compare different barrel lengths all in one vid. It gets us a good data point to work off on. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:43:46 PM EDT
[#43]
PMC X-TAC is another VERY popular M193 clone (Korean) that is loaded VERY hot!!
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon:
Now on the The List. https://app.box.com/shared/static/bmonv9hu40olin6zl09pda57r85yfi81.jpg .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Molon, have you tested any other M193 clones in the 5 1/2 years since you started this thread? Now on the The List. https://app.box.com/shared/static/bmonv9hu40olin6zl09pda57r85yfi81.jpg .... |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 3:00:28 PM EDT
[#44]
I've been going down the list of Molon's tests and all I can say is "Damn!". He's already saved me from spending a lot of money on crap I don't need! Thanks Molon!
Through all the reading, I haven't noticed any tests to compare CL vs Non CL - I'm sure it's been done, but I can't be sure. I ask this, because the testing I've seen of M193, M855 and Mk318 all seem to indicate piss poor accuracy from CL bores - be it 1/9 or 1/7. Based on the setup he's running, I seriously doubt shooter, optics or atmosphere plays a huge role, so it has to be the ammo or the barrels. Would these same cartridge prove more accurate out of say stainless or melonited barrels? I don't have near the resources to do a completely honest test of this sort, so I just wondered if anyone's had a chance to test this theory. |
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Posted: 4/15/2016 7:51:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By boerseun:
I've been going down the list of Molon's tests and all I can say is "Damn!". He's already saved me from spending a lot of money on crap I don't need! Thanks Molon! Through all the reading, I haven't noticed any tests to compare CL vs Non CL - I'm sure it's been done, but I can't be sure. I ask this, because the testing I've seen of M193, M855 and Mk318 all seem to indicate piss poor accuracy from CL bores - be it 1/9 or 1/7. Based on the setup he's running, I seriously doubt shooter, optics or atmosphere plays a huge role, so it has to be the ammo or the barrels. Would these same cartridge prove more accurate out of say stainless or melonited barrels? I don't have near the resources to do a completely honest test of this sort, so I just wondered if anyone's had a chance to test this theory. Run of the mill GI ammunition is NOT precision ammunition. M193 and M855 should give you somewhere around 3-4 MOA from even a "very good" barrel. Chrome lined or not. And Molon HAS posted accuracy/precision testing results that show quality chrome lined barrels can yield groups that are essentially equivalent to those shot through quality non-lined barrels. The "chrome lining causes rotten accuracy" may have been true decades ago, but today chrome lining a barrel is a finely tuned science, producing an extremely consistent, extremely smooth layer of hard chrome through the entire bore. Assuming the barrel was well made, it would almost certainly NOT make any difference whether it was chrome-moly, chrome-moly with a quality chrome lining, chrome-moly with a nitride treatment, or "other." The bottom line is that even if "Joe at the gun shop" will swear up and down that chrome lined barrels "are always going to give you $hitty accuracy," it's just not true. Quality barrels (lined or not) that are properly installed are going to be more accurate than poorly made barrels (lined or not) that are thrown together with Bubba sitting on the upper while Billy and Bobby crank on the barrel nut with a pipe wrench. Feeding a "good" quality barrel with high quality ammunition will get you better groups than feeding an expensive, "uber-quality" barrel cheap ammunition. Put that quality ammo through your quality barrel, and you'll geld gnats at 300 meters while Billy and Bobby will blame their air rifle-grade scope for why the abomination they put together can't put two holes closer to a few inches away from each other at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 5/14/2016 1:03:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03Jet:
Thank you Buffman, I noticed the crimp too, stout to say the least. I wonder if it is a true M193 bullet or if they use the same as the .223, (since it claims NATO specs). It has been rumored that the .223 bullet has a thick jacket. Never saw any data on this, nor have I seen any gel tests. It still remains my favorite range ammo, the .223 loading. Never heard of the NATO load until this thread. Also thanks for all the vids on ammo velocity. I like how you compare different barrel lengths all in one vid. It gets us a good data point to work off on. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03Jet:
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Originally Posted By 03Jet:
Cool, nice find. Hope it works out well for you. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between the two. If anyone can form an intelligent synopsis on the difference, I'm sure you will bring it to the table. Thank you Buffman, I noticed the crimp too, stout to say the least. I wonder if it is a true M193 bullet or if they use the same as the .223, (since it claims NATO specs). It has been rumored that the .223 bullet has a thick jacket. Never saw any data on this, nor have I seen any gel tests. It still remains my favorite range ammo, the .223 loading. Never heard of the NATO load until this thread. Also thanks for all the vids on ammo velocity. I like how you compare different barrel lengths all in one vid. It gets us a good data point to work off on. Just as an FYI, M193 is not and never was a NATO load. That being said, the GECO 55 grain projectile has some of the most uniform bases I've ever seen for a bullet in this category. 
... |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2019 12:49:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: highdesert45]
[#47]
What is the opinion concerning re-manufactured ammunition, particularly American Marksman? It was advertised by ar15.com on an e-mail I received?
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VA, USA
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:22:58 PM EDT
[#48]
It's just not worth it.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2021 6:56:22 PM EDT
[#49]
@Molon
Would you consider revisiting your M193/M855 tests with current production lots to see if the reports of lowered velocities are true? Also, are you able to fix the broken images in this thread? |
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Posted: 3/21/2021 7:19:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: @Molon Would you consider revisiting your M193/M855 tests with current production lots to see if the reports of lowered velocities are true? Once I've completed some of the current projects I have in the works, I might just do that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: @Molon Would you consider revisiting your M193/M855 tests with current production lots to see if the reports of lowered velocities are true? Once I've completed some of the current projects I have in the works, I might just do that. Originally Posted By mcantu: @Molon Also, are you able to fix the broken images in this thread? Yes, when I can find the original pics on my old hard drives. .. |
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