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Posted: 9/18/2010 3:45:32 AM EDT
| Im looking for a good all around load to run in my LMT MWS. I will be shooting no further than 600 yards. I want a round that I could use for hunting, and SHTF, but I always want excellent accuracy. I have been looking at the 155 gr TAP load after the terminal ballistics Ive read about it. It would fit the bill perfect, but how accurate would it be out of a 1:10 and 1:11.25 5r barrel compared to...say...FGMM 168gr? Anyone know the MV this load gets out of a 16" and 18" gas gun? |
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You're talking about the TAP loaded with the 155 grain A-Max bullet? My Savage 12FLV has a 1:10 barrel on it and the 155 grain A-Max TAP ammo gave me some of the best groups I've ever had with that rifle (the 168 grain BTHP loaded TAP and a 175 grain SMK handload are also firmly on that list). 100 yard groups of .75" were average with it, and we're talking about using the crappy factory trigger (pre-accu-trigger).
Can't help you on the gas gun info. I don't have a chronograph, and I've never shot any of the A-Max ammo through a semi-auto, gas operated or otherwise. |
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Im looking for a good all around load to run in my LMT MWS. I will be shooting no further than 600 yards. I want a round that I could use for hunting, and SHTF, but I always want excellent accuracy. I have been looking at the 155 gr TAP load after the terminal ballistics Ive read about it. It would fit the bill perfect, but how accurate would it be out of a 1:10 and 1:11.25 5r barrel compared to...say...FGMM 168gr? Anyone know the MV this load gets out of a 16" and 18" gas gun? I shoot it out of a rock creek 1:11:25 5R barrel, it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. For the record, my 155 and 168 AMAX shoots inside 2 inch groups at 200 meters(yes, the evil metric system). I don't know the muzz velocity, I use a 24 inch barrel, and a bolt gun is gonna make it go even faster. |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. |
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The 155 AMAX has shown in testing to have about perfect terminal performance for human targets. That said, that performance may not be ideal for hunting. I think the 155gr AMAX TAP load will kill deer, but since it is a fragmenting bullet it may damage more meat or not penetrate ideally if you have to take a marginal shot. Just food for thought, I haven't ever tried one myself for hunting.
As for precision, the AMAX bullets are very good. I've had good luck with them in every caliber I've tried them. |
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I have cooked up loads with 155, 168 and 178 grain AMAX bullets for my 308 bolt gun.
Accuracy was almost identical with the 3 (all sub-MOA). Looking at the gel tests for the 155 and 168 TAP, they are almost identical with the 168 having deeper penetration. 155 need not be thought of as a shorter range bullet, after all, that is the weight they shoot in Palma matches, however I wound up standardizing on the 168 as I got expremely small difference in accuracy out of my rifle. Both factory TAP rounds are great choices for your hunting/SHTF load as long as they feed in your LMT. I would buy a box of each and find out if your rifle prefers one or the other. While you are at it, chrono the loads so you can work up a range card and see how the drops look. SMK's (the bullet in FGMM) are notorious for inconsistent fragmentation since Sierra reduces the size of the meplat (open tip) some years back. Most people recommend against using them for hunting. Besides that, it is a famously accurate load, and given that only hits count, it shouldn't be thrown out completely as an option. |
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The 155 AMAX has shown in testing to have about perfect terminal performance for human targets. That said, that performance may not be ideal for hunting. I think the 155gr AMAX TAP load will kill deer, but since it is a fragmenting bullet it may damage more meat or not penetrate ideally if you have to take a marginal shot. Just food for thought, I haven't ever tried one myself for hunting. As for precision, the AMAX bullets are very good. I've had good luck with them in every caliber I've tried them. The HORNADY 155gr. AMAX as loaded in their factory TAP ammunition is a conventional expanding bullet. Quite a bit of the simple lead core will scrub off as the bullet rapidly expands/penetrates because the soft lead core is not bonded to the jacket (see below). I hunt whitetail with a 22" M14 firing the 155gr. AMAX because my shots are limited to 200yds. max. due to terrain/brush but the 168gr. AMAX will have better ballistics at even medium range. Have no recovered 155gr. AMAX bullets to show from shooting whitetail as all have exited after performing very well inside the body cavity. Accuracy@100yds. in my rifle is about the same as 175gr. LC M118LR or DAG AB22/DM111 BALL: very good. Factory TAP 155gr. AMAX over recovered 155gr. AMAX fired into water@10ft from 22" M14: diameter 0.76" & 96gr. weight 
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. |
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I have cooked up loads with 155, 168 and 178 grain AMAX bullets for my 308 bolt gun. Accuracy was almost identical with the 3 (all sub-MOA). Looking at the gel tests for the 155 and 168 TAP, they are almost identical with the 168 having deeper penetration. 155 need not be thought of as a shorter range bullet, after all, that is the weight they shoot in Palma matches, however I wound up standardizing on the 168 as I got expremely small difference in accuracy out of my rifle. Both factory TAP rounds are great choices for your hunting/SHTF load as long as they feed in your LMT. I would buy a box of each and find out if your rifle prefers one or the other. While you are at it, chrono the loads so you can work up a range card and see how the drops look. SMK's (the bullet in FGMM) are notorious for inconsistent fragmentation since Sierra reduces the size of the meplat (open tip) some years back. Most people recommend against using them for hunting. Besides that, it is a famously accurate load, and given that only hits count, it shouldn't be thrown out completely as an option. Thats the 155 Scenar from Lapua your refering to. Many shooters use the Lapua 155 due to its higher BC, which allows it to be driven faster, with more accuracy. Sadly, the 155 AMAX doesn't perform as well, which is why you tend to not see it on the line at BR competitions. OP, stay with 168, its exactly what your looking for. For even better penetration than an AMAX, try the IB TAP barrier round. |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. |
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The Black Hills load with the 155gr AMAX bullet shoots wonderfully in the M14ish rifle I had SEI build for me. It is my go-to accuracy load, I just wish I had the cash to shoot it all the time. However, I have not shot any of it at long distances, so I can't speak to that aspect.
Here is a jello test showing the significant fragmentation common to this projectile (roughly 50% retained weight), courtesy of DocGKR of m4carbine.net: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/308_TAP_comparison.jpg |
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The Black Hills load with the 155gr AMAX bullet shoots wonderfully in the M14ish rifle I had SEI build for me. It is my go-to accuracy load, I just wish I had the cash to shoot it all the time. However, I have not shot any of it at long distances, so I can't speak to that aspect. Here is a jello test showing the significant fragmentation common to this projectile (roughly 50% retained weight), courtesy of DocGKR of m4carbine.net: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/308_TAP_comparison.jpg B_L, The photo you posted of the 155gr. AMAX test show the results of a soft lead core expanding bullet loosing fragments as it expanded/penetrated, not fragmentation. The 155gr. AMAX entered and began to expand at the front of the bullet. As it continued to penetrate, the soft lead core was scrubbing off in small pieces just like the one I show in the picture below (155gr. TAP AMAX on top). The picture below also shows a recovered non-expanding LC M118LR 175gr SMK OTM bullet second from the top showing fragmentation. The open tip of the SMK OTM bullet bent on entry but did not even start to expand. The bullet began to yaw and broke into at least 2 pieces shedding the lead core as it went. Expansion and fragmentation are very different mechanisms. Several states require an EXPANDING bullet for hunting/game control so both the fragmenting steel jacket DAG AB22/DM111 (third from top) & non-fragmenting steel jacket Winchester M80 cartridge (bottom) are not legal hunting ammunition in those areas. You could possibly get into trouble with the non-expanding/fragmenting M118LR but not with the AMAX. 
This frontal view of the Hornady TAP 155gr. AMAX after expansion is about as pretty a mushroom as I have seen: in almost 4 decades of testing different bullets chasing after accuracy/performance on game animals: 
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. I don't have any pictures, and I've only used it on big game once. Didn't take pix of the round, sorry. I hope your e-penis grows since I'm officially dropping this and letting you "win" in an effort to keep this on topic. I'm not here to argue fragmentation, I'm arguing against using it as a LONG distance round. 600 meters doesn't count in this rifle. Simply my experience with it is all I shared. If its wrong than its wrong, but out my of rock 5R, it fragments.  This is what I shoot it out of.
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The Black Hills load with the 155gr AMAX bullet shoots wonderfully in the M14ish rifle I had SEI build for me. It is my go-to accuracy load, I just wish I had the cash to shoot it all the time. However, I have not shot any of it at long distances, so I can't speak to that aspect. Here is a jello test showing the significant fragmentation common to this projectile (roughly 50% retained weight), courtesy of DocGKR of m4carbine.net: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/308_TAP_comparison.jpg B_L, The photo you posted of the 155gr. AMAX test show the results of a soft lead core expanding bullet loosing fragments as it expanded/penetrated, not fragmentation. The 155gr. AMAX entered and began to expand at the front of the bullet. As it continued to penetrate, the soft lead core was scrubbing off in small pieces just like the ones I show in the picture below (155gr. TAP AMAX on top). The picture below also shows a recovered LC M118LR 175gr SMK OTM bullet second from the top. The open tip of the SMK OTM bullet bent on entry but did not even start to expand. The bullet began to yaw and broke into at least 2 pieces shedding the lead core as it went. Expansion and fragmentation are very different mechanisms. Several states require an EXPANDING bullet for hunting/game control so the fragmenting steel jacket DAG AB22/DM111 (third from top) & non-fragmenting steel jacket Winchester M80 cartridge (bottom) are not legal ammunition. You may even get into trouble with the M118LR but not with the AMAX. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/IMG_0004.jpg This frontal view of the Hornady TAP 155gr. AMAX after expansion is about as pretty a mushroom as I have seen: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/HORNADYTAP155grAMAX.jpg If thats the prettiest mushroom you've ever seen, go look at the barnes TSX. |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. I don't have any pictures, and I've only used it on big game once. Didn't take pix of the round, sorry. I hope your e-penis grows since I'm officially dropping this and letting you "win" in an effort to keep this on topic. I'm not here to argue fragmentation, I'm arguing against using it as a LONG distance round. 600 meters doesn't count in this rifle. Simply my experience with it is all I shared. If its wrong than its wrong, but out my of rock 5R, it fragments. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/002-1.jpg This is what I shoot it out of. You did not let me win anything as the TAP 155gr. AMAX bullet is what it is: an EXPANDING bullet design. And you are a few years late giving me your hot tip on Barnes bullets as I already have a collection of them in several calibers/weights recovered after testing & hitting flesh/bone. As for your smack-talk: try a little harder to act like grow-up, sonny. |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. I don't have any pictures, and I've only used it on big game once. Didn't take pix of the round, sorry. I hope your e-penis grows since I'm officially dropping this and letting you "win" in an effort to keep this on topic. I'm not here to argue fragmentation, I'm arguing against using it as a LONG distance round. 600 meters doesn't count in this rifle. Simply my experience with it is all I shared. If its wrong than its wrong, but out my of rock 5R, it fragments. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/002-1.jpg This is what I shoot it out of. You did not let me win anything as the TAP 155gr. AMAX bullet is what it is: an EXPANDING bullet design. And you are a few years late giving me your hot tip on Barnes bullets as I already have a collection of them in several calibers/weights recovered after testing & hitting flesh/bone. As for your smack-talk: try a little harder to act like grow-up, sonny. I'm not arguing what its supposed to do, simply saying what I've had it do. Personally. Me. Out of my rifle. I don't, have not, and will never pass it on as gospel, but its QUITE capable of fragmentation depending on the range it hits the intended target, and at what velocity. There's a good reason Hornaday puts out bonded TAP .308 now. I also never claimed it was a hot tip, merely suggesting once again that the TSX from barnes is a fantastic round, although I've read it can be troublesome to get FGMM standard accuracy from it. Since your such a know it all about this round, why don't you inform us all about its long distance properties? I'm not smack talking, I dont have a vested interest in this thread, other than helping someone with distance shooting. Last time I checked, your pointed responses are typical of someone that has a dog in this fight, so to speak. Sonny? Lol. No kiddo? Or "boy"? |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. I don't have any pictures, and I've only used it on big game once. Didn't take pix of the round, sorry. I hope your e-penis grows since I'm officially dropping this and letting you "win" in an effort to keep this on topic. I'm not here to argue fragmentation, I'm arguing against using it as a LONG distance round. 600 meters doesn't count in this rifle. Simply my experience with it is all I shared. If its wrong than its wrong, but out my of rock 5R, it fragments. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/002-1.jpg This is what I shoot it out of. You did not let me win anything as the TAP 155gr. AMAX bullet is what it is: an EXPANDING bullet design. And you are a few years late giving me your hot tip on Barnes bullets as I already have a collection of them in several calibers/weights recovered after testing & hitting flesh/bone. As for your smack-talk: try a little harder to act like grow-up, sonny. I am surprised this thread hasn't already been locked because of those responses 
Despite the passionate disagreement between you two on the subject of the wounding mechanism of the 155 grain AMAX, I will have to go with Doc GKR's assessment which contradicts leid. Specifically, when he says HERE: The 155 gr AMAX consistently offers nearly perfect terminal performance characteristics––ideal penetration, good fragmentation, and perfectly placed large temporary cavity. All of the .308 AMAX bullets we are aware of fired in OIS incidents to date have remained in the suspects' torsos; damage on autopsy has been quite impressive and exactly as predicted based on lab analysis. The 110 gr AMAX has a shallower penetration depth with a rounded temporary stretch cavity, while the 168 gr and 178 gr AMAX have deeper penetration than the 155 AMAX, with a more oval, narrower temporary stretch cavity. BH also loads AMAX bullets.
leid, this graphic enhanced by the Doc clearly shows the bullet fragments radiating thoughout the temporary cavity in the ballistic gel test: 
if you want to call the 155 AMAX an EXPANDING bullet design, that's fine with me. It is a bullet design where chunks of jacket and lead core are ripped violently away from it on impact, traveling on their own to make discrete wound channels in the target . . . as it "expands." |
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Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards.
I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? |
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Quoted: Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? I use Winchester Ballastic Tip 168gr while deer hunting in GA in both 3O-06 (Browning Abolt2) and .308 (AR-10). Because of the terrain none of my shots have been past 300 yards. By far, out of all of the rounds I have used over the years this design is the most devastating on a deer. GA are typically smaller FWIW. |
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Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? Use the ballistic calculator on hornady.com Enter the data for the different bullets and see for yourself the difference the wind will make. All of which is BS anyway because if you don't care enough to buy a box of each and see which shoots best in YOUR gun, then you will probably never actually put enough long range rounds through your gun to hit anything at 600 yards, let alone be able to tell the difference between a 155 or a 168. ETA: Hornady says you will push the following speeds from a 24" barrel: 2673 fps - 168 gr 2797 fps - 155 gr Velocity estimates: 18" barrel 2525 fps - 168 gr 2650 fps - 155 gr Under 17", you will not burn all the powder in a .308 round, so velocity drops faster for every inch less barrel length. 16" Barrel 2465 fps - 168 gr 2590 fps - 155 gr |
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it groups well, but its not my choice for anything serious. Its great for hunting though! Personally, I use the 168 AMAX to 800 meters, and switch to a 175 HPBT after that. Why do you prefer the 168gr AMAX over the 155gr TAP if it groups well and has great terminal ballistics? Just the range? What would be a good range to use the 155gr TAP with before it becomes unreliable? Basically I am trying to figure out if I should make the 168gr AMAX, my go to precision/shtf load, or if I should go with the 155gr TAP (AMAX bullet) for the same. I don't like it because of the weight. The 155 AMAX is good for 600 yards and in, but it gets bad with a little wind. It just doesn't buck wind as well as the lapua scenar 155. The 155 AMAX is VERY VERY capable of kiling people/deer, and yes it DOES tend fragment. I prefer 168 AMAX for mid range, and 175 or 178 BTHP for 1K. I would use the 168 AMAX for 0-800 yards. Inside that range, it'll buck wind decently, stay supersonic, hit hard, and provide some nasty wounds to whatever you hit with it. How about showing us visual evidence of some of your 'fragmenting" 155gr AMAX bullets then. I don't have any pictures, and I've only used it on big game once. Didn't take pix of the round, sorry. I hope your e-penis grows since I'm officially dropping this and letting you "win" in an effort to keep this on topic. I'm not here to argue fragmentation, I'm arguing against using it as a LONG distance round. 600 meters doesn't count in this rifle. Simply my experience with it is all I shared. If its wrong than its wrong, but out my of rock 5R, it fragments. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/002-1.jpg This is what I shoot it out of. You did not let me win anything as the TAP 155gr. AMAX bullet is what it is: an EXPANDING bullet design. And you are a few years late giving me your hot tip on Barnes bullets as I already have a collection of them in several calibers/weights recovered after testing & hitting flesh/bone. As for your smack-talk: try a little harder to act like grow-up, sonny. I am surprised this thread hasn't already been locked because of those responses
Despite the passionate disagreement between you two on the subject of the wounding mechanism of the 155 grain AMAX, I will have to go with Doc GKR's assessment which contradicts leid. Specifically, when he says HERE: The 155 gr AMAX consistently offers nearly perfect terminal performance characteristics––ideal penetration, good fragmentation, and perfectly placed large temporary cavity. All of the .308 AMAX bullets we are aware of fired in OIS incidents to date have remained in the suspects' torsos; damage on autopsy has been quite impressive and exactly as predicted based on lab analysis. The 110 gr AMAX has a shallower penetration depth with a rounded temporary stretch cavity, while the 168 gr and 178 gr AMAX have deeper penetration than the 155 AMAX, with a more oval, narrower temporary stretch cavity. BH also loads AMAX bullets.
leid, this graphic enhanced by the Doc clearly shows the bullet fragments radiating throughout the temporary cavity in the ballistic gel test: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/SMKvsTAP.jpg if you want to call the 155 AMAX an EXPANDING bullet design, that's fine with me. It is a bullet design where chunks of jacket and lead core are ripped violently away from it on impact, traveling on their own to make discrete wound channels in the target . . . as it "expands." Bronco, The fragments scrubbing of the expanding 308 TAP 155gr. AMAX in all my test shots were all lead. I saw no indication than the copper jacket had come apart. The copper jacket showed to have split, expanding back over itself but looked to be virtually all there. This leads me to believe that the small fragments you see in Doc's photo are mostly comprised of if not virtually all flattened lead fragments that scrub off the 155gr AMAX core. I recovered many of these flattened lead fragments after each test shot with the 308 TAP 155gr AMAX and included them in the photos previously posted. Lead fragments scrubbing off expanding traditional copper jacket/lead core hunting bullets have some hunters concerned over lead contamination of their table-grade venison. But most of the fragments are stuck in/around the off-side ribs, stopped in the internal organs while lacerating them, or go flying out the exit wound. I simply cut that area of the rib cage away and discarded it along with the internal organs. AFAIK, end of problem. But this is yet another benefit of the new generation of all-copper hunting bullets; no lead contamination at all to be concerned with. |
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Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? I think that either will fit your needs quite well OP. Buy a few boxes of each, and hit the range. The biggest difference between the two weights will be the amount of wind your holdin/dialing for. Your going to dial more wind for a 155 than a 168. Just know that 600 yards would be about your most effective range with a 155 AMAX. As others have noted, its a fantastic round for hunting. I have used both the Match marked boxes of AMAX, and TAP marked boxes, and have noted no difference in performance. The headstamp on the red TAP boxes read "match" also. Point of impact between the two is almost identical. You can use either for your intended purpose, and chieve great results. I shoot 155's, 168's, and 178's. My 178 load is for 1K, my 168 load is for range fun and hunting. I'm going to cook up a good load with the 155 for my PTR91 to give it a little more of an "edge". If you desire distance over performance on game animals, the 155 Lapua Scenar loaded to roughly 2850 fps(some get it faster!) is a knockout! A higher BC than 175 SMK, and they can be driven much faster. Dialing less wind and elevation is a nice ability, and will help you get on target at the right distance much quicker. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? I use Winchester Ballastic Tip 168gr while deer hunting in GA in both 3O-06 (Browning Abolt2) and .308 (AR-10). Because of the terrain none of my shots have been past 300 yards. By far, out of all of the rounds I have used over the years this design is the most devastating on a deer. GA are typically smaller FWIW. Are these the Combined technologies bullets that are black? Are they moly? Are you using handloads, or factory? I'm intrigued, I've been thinking about trying it. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? Use the ballistic calculator on hornady.com Enter the data for the different bullets and see for yourself the difference the wind will make. All of which is BS anyway because if you don't care enough to buy a box of each and see which shoots best in YOUR gun, then you will probably never actually put enough long range rounds through your gun to hit anything at 600 yards, let alone be able to tell the difference between a 155 or a 168. ETA: Hornady says you will push the following speeds from a 24" barrel: 2673 fps - 168 gr 2797 fps - 155 gr Velocity estimates: 18" barrel 2525 fps - 168 gr 2650 fps - 155 gr Under 17", you will not burn all the powder in a .308 round, so velocity drops faster for every inch less barrel length. 16" Barrel 2465 fps - 168 gr 2590 fps - 155 gr Here is some data on a 12 inch... http://www.pof-usa.net/technical/chronoresults.htm |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Please do not lock this thread mods! I appreciate the input here very much. I am still unsure as to whether the 155 TAP or 168 TAP is right for my intended purposed for hunting (no bigger than a deer), SHTF, and long range precision out to 600 yards. I have read Doc GKRs thread, and it seems to me that based on that study, the 155 gr TAP seems ideal for me, but how much will this round differ compared to the 168 TAP out to 600 yard? And in 10 mph wind? Also, is there any difference between Hornady AMAX match ammo, and TAP using the AMAX bullet? I use Winchester Ballastic Tip 168gr while deer hunting in GA in both 3O-06 (Browning Abolt2) and .308 (AR-10). Because of the terrain none of my shots have been past 300 yards. By far, out of all of the rounds I have used over the years this design is the most devastating on a deer. GA are typically smaller FWIW. Are these the Combined technologies bullets that are black? Are they moly? Are you using handloads, or factory? I'm intrigued, I've been thinking about trying it. Product Symbol: SBST308A Description: Solid based boat tail design delivers excellent long range accuracy. In .22 calibers, the Ballistic plastic polycarbonate Silvertip® bullet initiates rapid fragmentation. In medium to larger calibers special jacket contours extend range and reduce cross-wind drift. Harder lead core ensures proper bullet expansion. Suggested Use:   Features: Rapid controlled expansion, Massive knockdown, moderate penetration.
 http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/supreme/ballistic-silvertip/Pages/SBST308A.aspx |
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