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Posted: 8/20/2009 7:20:59 AM EDT
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DocGKR just posted this over on M4Carbine.net: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/08/army_green_bullet_080809w/ Temperature issues arise for lead-free slugArmy ballistics officials halted production of the M855A1 Lead Free Slug ammunition in mid July, launched an investigation and decided to replace the bismuth-tin alloy slug with another material, said Lt. Col. Jeff Woods, product manager for Small Caliber Ammunition. “We are currently evaluating alternate lead-free materials, and we will resume qualification once a selection is made,” Woods told Army Times. In the M855A1 LFS bullet’s design, the bismuth-tin alloy sits beneath a steel penetrating tip. A copper jacket encases all but the point of the bullet. The round was designed to work specifically with the M4 carbine. Army officials have maintained that the new round will provide more “consistent performance” than the current M855 round and perform better against hard targets. The problem surfaced when some of the bullets did not follow their trajectory or planned flight path. “During ballistic testing of production LFS cartridges, we noticed that some projectiles occasionally varied from the intended trajectory,” Woods said. The plan was to start issuing the first of 20 million rounds in August, replacing the standard M855 lead round. One thing the Army is sure of is that “this will delay fielding of the new round,” Woods said. This is not the first hiccup to occur in the quest for lead-free ammunition, a program the Army has invested tens of millions of dollars in since the mid-1990s. The first attempt featured a tungsten-nylon bullet that didn’t perform well and proved almost as harmful to the environment as lead. This new wrinkle in the program appears to be linked to “higher temperatures,” but ballistic officials would not describe the specific temperature at which the problem occurs. Sources familiar with the program said that the bismuth-tin alloy softens under heated temperatures, causing the round to perform inconsistently. “It’s the slug; that’s where the problem is,” said Ken McKee, who works in the quality assurance department for ATK’s Small Caliber Ammunition Systems at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo. He also said that the timeline for the current lead-free slug design may have been too ambitious. “We had a delivery schedule; this kind of knocked a hole in that,” McKee said. “It was a very aggressive schedule to begin with.” [ETA] Bismuth, if I remember correctly, has an extremely low melting point. |
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From the same article at M4Carbine.net: Army Times, Monday 17 August Corps studies new 5.56mm round Dan Lamothe The Corps is considering fielding a new 5.56mm round developed by U.S. Special Operations Command to all Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan, Marine officials said. Senior Marine leaders will decide whether the Corps should replace its 5.56mm ammunition with the new AB49 5.56mm round developed by the Special Operations Support Team, or SOST, after they are briefed this month, officials with Marine Corps Systems Command told the Marine gunner community Aug. 4. The Corps was interested in buying another new bullet, the M855A1 Lead Free Slug under development by the Army, but the fielding of that round will be delayed at least a year, Marine officials said. The Army stopped production of the slug in July after tests showed it had trajectory problems when used in hot weather, said Army Lt. Col. Jeff Woods, product manager for the Army's small-caliber ammunition program. As a short-term solution, SysCom recommended that the Corps purchase the new SOST round, which is expected to perform better than the existing 5.56mm rounds commonly used in Iraq and Afghanistan now, Marine officials said. Testing shows the new round performs consistently from shot to shot, and lot to lot, and is more accurate than the existing rounds, both in flight and when traveling through barriers, such as walls, doors and automobile glass. The Army's lead-free round was expected to be fielded this month, with 20 million rounds rolled out initially. Designed with a bismuth-tin alloy beneath a steel penetrating tip, the bullet did not regularly follow its planned trajectory in testing, Woods said, but ballistic officials would not disclose the temperatures at which the problems were discovered. Marine officials said that while the development of the new SOST round was launched by SOCom, ballistics experts at Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane, Ind., incorporated needs the Corps expressed into the program three years ago. The needs communicated to SOCom were not shared at the gunner symposium. If the Corps adopts the new round, it also will need to coordinate an effort to remove all existing rounds from combat zones. While there are some identifying markers, they look similar enough to the new SOST round that they could be easily confused, Marine officials said. Ultimately, the Corps is still interested in the Army's new M855A1 round, Marine officials said. If development hurdles can be cleared, the Corps will evaluate the SOCom round against the lead-free slug and decide which one suits Marine needs better, officials said. Just for reference: The AB49 round is Mk318 Mod 0 as discussed in this presentation. |
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So if they were going to ship 20 million rounds starting in Aug, they must have a good couple of million ready to go. I'd shoot it. Too bad they would have to scrap it before we could get. That would be a kick ass surplus auction. +1 I'd buy it  I'm pretty sure they could sell the components. Plus they're lead free , for the children. I only plink at 50 to 100 yards, so I'd be up for a couple of thousand to try out. |
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So if they were going to ship 20 million rounds starting in Aug, they must have a good couple of million ready to go. I'd shoot it. Too bad they would have to scrap it before we could get. That would be a kick ass surplus auction. +1 I'd buy it I'm pretty sure they could sell the components. Plus they're lead free , for the children. I only plink at 50 to 100 yards, so I'd be up for a couple of thousand to try out. Oh, yeah, they could spend more money to take them apart, and sell the parts for less then what they would have sold the whole thing together. That's how the .gov does things. 
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What the heck is the army thinking blowing millions of dollars on "eviromentally friendly" ammunition that sucks? Thankfully, the USMC seems to have more common sense. I hope the Marine Corps adopts the Mk318, that would be awesome! Ummmm.... because it wasn't DESIGNED to suck? Because they didn't know it sucked before they spent the money to develop and produce it? Because field testing is the only way to find this sort of problem? And because they have a mandate from Congress to reduce lead deposited in ranges OR ELSE have to CLOSE those mission-essential ranges? Oh, and the Army is the lead service (as in "in charge") of ALL small arms development and procurement. USMC actually has to get a formal waiver from the Ordnance Corps to adopt anything that the Army doesn't standardize. |
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So the idea was not to pollute enemy territory, how nice of them The idea was to have ONE round that could be used Stateside for training without polluting OUR territory and forcing ALL the services to close vital ranges, as well as be used in combat. Sort of like the idea of issuing the same type of rifle to all the troops in a particular mission unit? |
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Oh, and the Army is the lead service (as in "in charge") of ALL small arms development and procurement. USMC actually has to get a formal waiver from the Ordnance Corps to adopt anything that the Army doesn't standardize.[/div] There is no one lead agency for all small arms; the Army is the proponent for rifles while the Air Force is the proponent for pistols and the Marines the proponent for shotguns. There is no requirement for the services to use a common system, Hence the Navy using M14s as their standard A while the Marines and Army were using M16A1s/A2s and the Air Force using M16s for the longest time. As an aside the Marine Corps is also looking at a SAW supplement with the IAR (no one else is looking to field such a weapon), a possible future M-16 replacement and an across the board 5.56 replacement. |
Cough, Cough.
Niiiiice hook up.
It is what it is.....designed to be Man O Minute. The new round we are getting (soon) will beat the socks off of M855. It's due to arrive in theater soon for final testing. ETA: Not to worry RCO/TA31F users out there. Those of you actually utilizing the BDC in your optic won't notice a shift in POI as the new round has the same external ballistics as M855. |
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Oh, and the Army is the lead service (as in "in charge") of ALL small arms development and procurement. USMC actually has to get a formal waiver from the Ordnance Corps to adopt anything that the Army doesn't standardize.[/div] There is no one lead agency for all small arms; the Army is the proponent for rifles while the Air Force is the proponent for pistols and the Marines the proponent for shotguns. There is no requirement for the services to use a common system, Hence the Navy using M14s as their standard A while the Marines and Army were using M16A1s/A2s and the Air Force using M16s for the longest time. As an aside the Marine Corps is also looking at a SAW supplement with the IAR (no one else is looking to field such a weapon), a possible future M-16 replacement and an across the board 5.56 replacement. Since the Ordnance Corps is part of the Army, and the OC is responsible for type-qualifying small arms, the Army gets the title "lead agency." And again, each service must request a waiver if they want to adopt any non-standardized weapon system. "Proponent" agencies, by my understanding, are responsible for management of weapon systems. Thus, while USAF is the proponent for pistols, they had NO say in the adoption of the M9 or any follow on 9mm or .45ACP pistols. The Army's Ordnance Corps handled qualification and testing. Meanwhile, USAF is tasked with managing spares and tech data (the M9 users' manual was my demonstration item when I taught my classes "multi-service and cross-service" technical manuals... As for the Air Force keeping M16s for so long, look at which service gets the bulk of the money for replacement service weapons-and which gets the least. Follow the money; the Air Force got squat to replace rifles for decades. But back on topic, railing at the Army developing something they MUST develop is just whining in my book. |
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The United States Special Operations Command has Title 10 authority to buy its own small arms. They choose to use the Navy as their acquisition agent but it's SOCOM money. They could have chosen the Army but didn't (they could recognize a potential waste of money when they saw it).
The Air Force has full authority as a separate service to buy whatever the heck it wants. It chooses to put money into F22s and golf courses vice small arms. Capital small arms investments are required by law to go before a Joint Requirements Oversight Council if there is significant joint interest or major buys may exceed 2.1 billion dollars (in 1996 dollars) over the weapon system's lifetime –– how many M16s has the Army bought for all services and allies over 40 years? Fielding and large-scale procurement of any piece of equipment before finishing testing is wasteful. As M855A1 testing was already done and it's type-classified (no longer "XM") ––- oops. |
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That's what I'm going to say the next time I have a deer run off. "The projectile deviated from its intended flight path" Seriously though, the ss109 projectile is an aging design. I would think the all copper bullet with the tungsten base in it or something similar would be a better design. But that's why they get the big bucks I suppose.
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Unfortunately, the PRC is also the world's largest supplier of bismuth, one of the core materials of the M855 LFS...
The sooner folks realize that lead contamination on ranges from fired military small armsw projectiles embedded in the earth is insignificant compared to the aerosolized lead from both primers and the exposed lead on some rifle bullet bases, the sooner we can stop wasting tax payer funds on nonsense. The practical, effective, inexpensive Mk318/Mk319 is the Multicam of the ammo world... |
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Quoted: Unfortunately, the PRC is also the world's largest supplier of bismuth, one of the core materials of the M855 LFS... The sooner folks realize that lead contamination on ranges from fired military small armsw projectiles embedded in the earth is insignificant compared to the aerosolized lead from both primers and the exposed lead on some rifle bullet bases, the sooner we can stop wasting tax payer funds on nonsense. The practical, effective, inexpensive Mk318/Mk319 is the Multicam of the ammo world... Doctor Roberts: Was there no one in the chain of command that took this into consideration before it went that far? Wasn't the tungsten of the previous iteration of this "green" ammo also delivered mostly by the PRC? |
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You mean the same Chain of Command that suppressed 90% of the JSWB-IPT findings?
The same COC that ignored the extensive Natick testing of camo patterns and instead picked the untested UCP for the ACU? The same COC that took away AWG's HK416's and G19's? The same COC that has prohibited Mk318/319 from being made on the high speed SCAMP loaders at LC? The same COC that has seemingly forgotten or ignored numerous lessons learned from Viet Nam and other COIN operations? That COC? |
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Quoted: You mean the same Chain of Command that suppressed 90% of the JSWB-IPT findings? The same COC that ignored the extensive Natick testing of camo patterns and instead picked the untested UCP for the ACU? The same COC that took away AWG's HK416's and G19's? The same COC that has prohibited Mk318/319 from being made on the high speed SCAMP loaders at LC? The same COC that has seemingly forgotten or ignored numerous lessons learned from Viet Nam and other COIN operations? That COC? I guess I should have known better than to ask that question. The answer was pretty much self-evident. |
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Question: If say I wanted to load my own mk318mod0 round to check it out, where can i get said bullet? or is it super secret? I do not believe it's available to the public. Thats unfortunate. Do you think it would fall under the AP thing, or would it be like m855? |
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Quoted: Thats unfortunate. Do you think it would fall under the AP thing, or would it be like m855? My guess is that it's a simple matter of all production going to the military right now. Remember that the needs of the civilian market may not create a large enough demand to make it worth introducing this ammo commercially. |
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