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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 5.56 simunition (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/16/2009 9:16:58 PM EDT
i was watching a show on the military channel, (special ops training) and saw them using simunition (paintball rounds). And was wondering do they sell that to public to or is it only available to law enforcement/military? looked like fun!
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I agree. They should restrict everything dangerous to LE/MIL. Those could really put someone's eye out! Gosh darn, what would we do if we didn't have the government to protect us from ourselves? That's not the risk. There's a lot of good folks pushing up daisies due to half assed Reality Based Training safety standards.... Nevermind if they let the Halo and Airsoft tards get access to this stuff. For anyone interested in seriously learning about RBT/simunitions Kenneth R. Murray's TRAINING AT THE SPEED OF LIFE is an excellent resource, and a real eye openner for the pitfalls of reality based training. |
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HERE
thats the closest thing you can get, it actually ejects a small brass casing for each paintball. Its the most realistic paintball gun you can get, with adjustable FPS, and they have a glock version too. |
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This is pretty much the same stuff just a different company. Its out of stock, but I dont see it saying restricted to Mil or LEO
Man Marker |
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I have a good friend who's father is a LEO, who was shot in the ass with a simunition once... and the welt he got stuck around for a good while... and he was shot at range from a Beretta... Not paintball, he couldn't sit down for almost 2 weeks The risk of minor injury from sumunitions is the least of the risks. The above mentioned book outlines the reasons for very careful implementation of this type of program much more eloquently than I can. It should be considered deadly serious training and implemented with the utmost care and structure. In fact, after reading Training at the Speed of Life, you'll make damned sure you pick your RBT intstruction VERY carefully if you ever decide to pursue this type of thing. |
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Indeed. The simunition ammo itself is relatively safe.
It's the safe deployment of the complete system that is critical. It's like a whole package deal. IMO, one should totally commit to a complete and safe program for using this type of training... in a strictly controlled environment, or not do it at all. |
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Quoted: Yes they do, but there are too many idiots that would ignore that level of protection, then sue the company out of business when someone got hurt.a 5.56 simunition round travels at 600fps with only 5lbs of force when it exits the muzzle, i could see it causing minor injury, but not majior, unless it hit you in the eye, thoat, or temple.........or groain  ...but a face mask and cup protects all that... |
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I've never used the rifle rounds. Airsoft doesn't bruise like simunitions pistols rounds but they make pretty good cuts, particularly if they hit just right on the head. Simunitions are kind of a pia to get ahold of and the pistols aren't very reliable. Some places have switched to other things for force on force because of reliability problems with the sim pistols. I did a class with airsoft instead of sims round because it was in a building where we couldn't use simunitions. I don't think it really made much difference. It was a searching/clearing class though. I don't know if airsoft would handle the rough wrestling around of a close quarters/retention class. |
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I've seen buildings where rifle Simunitions operations went down. DEEP dents in plywood don't sound like a laughing matter.
An actual paintball is generally traveling under 400fps and the majority of them are around 68 caliber (0.68" in diameter) IIRC. That spreads the force out quite a bit, and they still cause welts, large bruises, and can damage eyes. Simunitions go around 650 fps and the rifle projectile, while much slower than a "real" rifle bullet, is still only about .224" in diameter, concentrating the force of the higher velocity round in a small spot. NOT a toy, by any means. Read up on them on the Simunitions web site. |
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Yes they do, but there are too many idiots that would ignore that level of protection, then sue the company out of business when someone got hurt.
a 5.56 simunition round travels at 600fps with only 5lbs of force when it exits the muzzle, i could see it causing minor injury, but not majior, unless it hit you in the eye, thoat, or temple.........or groain ...but a face mask and cup protects all that...
thats probaly one of the main reasons they dont sell to civilians, alot of airsoft idiots and kids would be too wreckless with it, and think its a toy like thier little airsoft guns and go shooting with it in their neighborhoods  .....
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We havent shot the rifles yet but the 9mm uppers and pistols can and do damage. I've had some deep splits in the skin from them, busted knuckles and fingers at the nail, and one of our guys took one to the face a while back. Busted his lip clear through. (long story why it was exposed, didn't think they would do much).
Like I said the actual 5.56 rounds are supposed to be WAY hotter than the others. Required to have full head protection with a a shell and rear neck guard. |
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You need a special upper to shoot sims. Yep. Like this: http://www.simunition.com/conversion_kits/images/conversionkits.jpg Yes, that's a BUNCH of conversions: an AR upper, an SMG bolt, some pistol barrels and a pistol slide. I thought all you had to do to shoot sims was change the bolt of an AR to the coversion bolt? |
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Yes they do, but there are too many idiots that would ignore that level of protection, then sue the company out of business when someone got hurt.
a 5.56 simunition round travels at 600fps with only 5lbs of force when it exits the muzzle, i could see it causing minor injury, but not majior, unless it hit you in the eye, thoat, or temple.........or groain ...but a face mask and cup protects all that...
Gee, sounds like paintball. We wearmasks, chest and neck protection...i never got shot in the groin, but i am adding a cup to my gear. BTW, paintballs are 300 fps .5 inches of pain. |
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Yes they do, but there are too many idiots that would ignore that level of protection, then sue the company out of business when someone got hurt.
a 5.56 simunition round travels at 600fps with only 5lbs of force when it exits the muzzle, i could see it causing minor injury, but not majior, unless it hit you in the eye, thoat, or temple.........or groain ...but a face mask and cup protects all that...
I love you Forest, but this is retarded logic. Let the idiots have real ammo, but restrict their access to LTL ammo? This is exactly the kind of logic that leads to ineffective restrictions of all kinds. People who decide they know better than anyone else what's good for the idiots get voted in and begin restricting assault weapons and sniper rifles because the idiots are running wild on the streets with them. It's just not true. In no way is simunition more dangerous than real ammunition. Users of either need to be educated and exercise the proper precautions when using any firearm or simulation. |
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Yes they do, but there are too many idiots that would ignore that level of protection, then sue the company out of business when someone got hurt.
a 5.56 simunition round travels at 600fps with only 5lbs of force when it exits the muzzle, i could see it causing minor injury, but not majior, unless it hit you in the eye, thoat, or temple.........or groain ...but a face mask and cup protects all that...
I love you Forest, but this is retarded logic. Let the idiots have real ammo, but restrict their access to LTL ammo? This is exactly the kind of logic that leads to ineffective restrictions of all kinds. People who decide they know better than anyone else what's good for the idiots get voted in and begin restricting assault weapons and sniper rifles because the idiots are running wild on the streets with them. It's just not true. In no way is simunition more dangerous than real ammunition. Users of either need to be educated and exercise the proper precautions when using any firearm or simulation. Thats true, you never hear of ammunition companies getting sued out of businness because someone got shot and killed.... |
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I don't see it as a problem with someone getting sued. I see it as a problem with someone getting hurt. Not because these training rounds are inherently dangerous-ALL ammunition is inherently dangerous in one way or another. Remember, there have been plenty of people killed with blanks. I worry that someone will get hurt because someone ELSE does not respect the round and the weapon. There are a lot of documented cases of people ignoring safety rules with .22LR guns-how much easier will it be for an UNTRAINED and otherwise ignorant individual to figure that these are "simulated rounds" and wind up putting someone else's eye out?
I fully agree with this product being restricted to customers that have built an expectation of having solid, adult supervision whenever firearms are involved. Not that every police agency is particularly professional, just that most are VERY professional, especially with regards to weapons. |
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I don't see it as a problem with someone getting sued. I see it as a problem with someone getting hurt. Not because these training rounds are inherently dangerous-ALL ammunition is inherently dangerous in one way or another. Remember, there have been plenty of people killed with blanks. I worry that someone will get hurt because someone ELSE does not respect the round and the weapon. There are a lot of documented cases of people ignoring safety rules with .22LR guns-how much easier will it be for an UNTRAINED and otherwise ignorant individual to figure that these are "simulated rounds" and wind up putting someone else's eye out? I fully agree with this product being restricted to customers that have built an expectation of having solid, adult supervision whenever firearms are involved. Not that every police agency is particularly professional, just that most are VERY professional, especially with regards to weapons. well if someone does somethig stupid, they will learn from their mistakes. |
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Got hit 4 times from simunitions about 2 weeks ago during training.
Was some of the most fun I've had. The only shot that really hurt came from a hit to the right chest just above the arm hole of my body armour. Left a bruise for 3-4 days. Got a couple hits to the extremities during a few other training sessions and didn't really even notice them until after the drill. Think I'm one of those people who goes into sensory exclusion. I DEFINITELY was glad to have the groin, neck, face protection though. |
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My point was that while the idiot learns, someone else gets hurt.
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I don't see it as a problem with someone getting sued. I see it as a problem with someone getting hurt. Not because these training rounds are inherently dangerous-ALL ammunition is inherently dangerous in one way or another. Remember, there have been plenty of people killed with blanks. I worry that someone will get hurt because someone ELSE does not respect the round and the weapon. There are a lot of documented cases of people ignoring safety rules with .22LR guns-how much easier will it be for an UNTRAINED and otherwise ignorant individual to figure that these are "simulated rounds" and wind up putting someone else's eye out? I fully agree with this product being restricted to customers that have built an expectation of having solid, adult supervision whenever firearms are involved. Not that every police agency is particularly professional, just that most are VERY professional, especially with regards to weapons. well if someone does somethig stupid, they will learn from their mistakes. |
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I've done Simunitions training and I continue to do so. The round hurts. But it's not "OMG I've been shot I'm dying!" It's "Fuck that stings.... what did I do wrong while searching the room for the suspect or did I not use cover properly?"
Simunitions is about as lethal as a paintball. Does the round travel faster then a average paintball? Yup.... but folks play games at 430fps with paintball guns. I used to be into paintballing and I would clock my guns in at about 420-430 fps. We'd wear masks and bdus. Perfectly safe, perfectly fun. Just to give you an idea. A 230gr .45 ACP FMJ travels at about 850 FPS. So a .68 caliber paintball is traveling at half the speed of a .45 ACP. That's still pretty powerful and is nasty in of itself. We'd used the pistols as close as five to six feet and the carbines at ten feet. I'm still here alive. We wear masks and neck guards. Cups are optional (highly recommended for both simunitions and paintball). Doesn't blow a whole in your clothing. Does leave a good size bruise and if it hits a finger or knuckle, it can break skin because that area is prone to that. The skin is thinner, stretched tight over bone. No different then breaking skin when you slip and fall. Simunitions should be available to for Joe Citizen to purchase. I'd buy it for myself and use it for more training. If you can't use it responsibly.... not my fucking fault. You'll learn from your mistakes. Either you will injure yourself or worse someone else but hey. You'll pay for that in a court of law either for criminal or civil suit. The company should not be held responsible for the misuse of their products. Under that logic we should sue Ford because a drunk driver was driving a Ford Automobile. It's a fun product when used properly. It's a good training aid and it's much better then a paintball gun also. Nothing says fun then a group of friends hunting each other down with Simunition M4 Carbines and Simunition GLOCK pistols. I truly think that someone needs to generate the capital and start their own company and sell it on the civilian market. Simply produce conversion kits or design them in a way that they cannot be used as conversion kits so they cannot be turned into firearms or use live ammunition if they're not going to be governed by BATFE. Quoted:
My point was that while the idiot learns, someone else gets hurt. Then you punish the idiot.... not the general public. Group punishment isn't something we should institute on the law abiding citizenry. The National Firearms Act of 1934, Gun Control Act of 1968, the Machine Ban Provision of the Firearm Owner's Protection act of 1986, and the Clinton Era Assault Weapon's Ban passed because of that type of thinking. |
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Everyone here is missing the point. Sure! Simu's run the same injury risk that paintball does, roughly....
ONE of the risks you run with amatures goofing around with Sim ammo is that you may not have a completely controlled environment that prevents a real gun or real ammo from getting deployed in a scenario. I know all you tactical masturbators will say... "OH! That would NEVER happen to me! I watch 24 AND The UNIT" But there are a lot of people who SHOULD HAVE KNOWN better that have accidentally allowed lethal weapons or ammo into an equation. If you're truly interested in RBT, buy or borrow the book I mentioned above. You won't be disappointed. Otherwise, I suggest sticking to paintball where the weapon platforms are completely non compatible. |
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Everyone here is missing the point. Sure! Simu's run the same injury risk that paintball does, roughly.... ONE of the risks you run with amatures goofing around with Sim ammo is that you may not have a completely controlled environment that prevents a real gun or real ammo from getting deployed in a scenario. I know all you tactical masturbators will say... "OH! That would NEVER happen to me! I watch 24 AND The UNIT" But there are a lot of people who SHOULD HAVE KNOWN better that have accidentally allowed lethal weapons or ammo into an equation. If you're truly interested in RBT, buy or borrow the book I mentioned above. You won't be disappointed. Otherwise, I suggest sticking to paintball where the weapon platforms are completely non compatible. Sim Guns are designed to where they can't except and fire proper ammunition. It's not simply chamber a sim round and fire. It's a different chamber, different material in building the sim gun (Pot Metal like construction because of far lower pressures). if you get a sim gun to work properly with lethal ammunition (normal ammo) then you really went above and beyond in modding the sim gun. Just like the thugs do with starter pistols and airsoft guns to work with .22LR and other lower pressure cartridges. The only firearm that can work with both normal ammunition and simunitions is a revolver. But the Simunition GLOCKs and ARs are different creatures. They can't chamber live ammo.... just can't happen. Hell.... they're even stamped WARNING - DANGER for 9mm FX Ammo only -do not load or fire any other live ammunition The GLOCK 17T (Simunition Pistol) is chambered for a 7.8x21mm Simunition Cartridge. Which has a muzzle energy of about 2 ft/lbs, effective range is about 10 metres. Also the GLOCK 17T is a direct blowback operating pistol because of the much lower pressures. The difference in the frame from a standard Glock 17 is the locking insert, designed for the fixed blowback system the gun uses. The rear of the barrel is visible under the thumb in the photo. It's showing the differing locking system under the chamber. 
A right-side view of the GLOCK 17T. Note the lower than normal chamber to allow straight-blowback and also the vent hole in the side of the chamber. 
The simunition slide will not work on a standard GLOCK frame and neither will the simunition frame work with standard GLOCK slide. Do not attempt to chamber or fire live ammunition. Possib" If you have never dealt with Simunitions then you don't understand. |
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If you have never dealt with Simunitions then you don't understand. I have some sim handgun ammo at home. I know what it is. The bottom line is there are dead folks. Real people who really died in sim training. Victims of laxed safety attitude towards RBT. I'm not talking HALO 3 retards who got some sim guns... but real professionals in law enforcement. Again... anyone serious about RBT should read up on it. I didn't know what I didn't know until I read Training at the Speed of Life. |
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If you have never dealt with Simunitions then you don't understand. I have some sim handgun ammo at home. I know what it is. The bottom line is there are dead folks. Real people who really died in sim training. Victims of laxed safety attitude towards RBT. I'm not talking HALO 3 retards who got some sim guns... but real professionals in law enforcement. Again... anyone serious about RBT should read up on it. I didn't know what I didn't know until I read Training at the Speed of Life. Folks also die from 5 gallon buckets. Force on Force isn't childish games.... but then again idiots injure themselves all the time with paintball guns and even kill themselves and others sometime with paintball guns. I still believe that folks wanting to utilize Force on Force training with simunitions and they're not LEO or Mil should be able to. It's great training.... |
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I still believe that folks wanting to utilize Force on Force training with simunitions and they're not LEO or Mil should be able to. It's great training.... We're not in disagreement about that at all. My opinion is they should do so in a professional, safe, and structured environment. I don't think non mil/le shouldn't get the training. |
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It's rightfully restricted to LE/MIL. Force on Force training is NO JOKE. Paint ball is paint ball.... I can own a gun, but I am rightfully restricted by some idiot's notion that the paint ball version of said weapon would be more dangerous  +
The company's lawyers probably advised them not to sell to us mere mortals. Taser used to have the same notions as well.... |
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"this looks like fun" ––-Bullshit!
-The pistol rounds hurt, the rifle rounds are horrible. I've used both and been shot by both multiple times. They are not a "cool toy". Plus, the shit isn't cheap to shoot. Go get a paintball gun from WalMart if you are looking for a toy to have some fun with. -You don't need the entire conversion. I've used just a replacement BCG in my upper. It will ONLY fire sim rounds when installed, and cycles very reliably (even on auto). It does leave a ton of plastic in your barell that needs to be cleaned out. |
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what is the effective range of the 5.56 sim rounds? i know a paintballs effective range is about 60 or 70 yrds. Good question. I have only used the 5.56 rounds in a shoot house, so the shots are not very far. I would guess much better than the 60 or 70 yards you are estimating for a paintball, considering the average velocity of most paintball guns is around 300 fps and the projectiles are not very aerodynamic. If I remember correctly the sim rifle rounds are around 600 fps and are shaped alot more like a bullet than a paintball. I'm sure someone here has tested the range of these and will be able to provide a better answer. |
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What is the accuracy of the 5.56 Sim ammo? Paintball is so horribly inaccurate I dont even want to try it after shooting some family member's paintball guns. SIMS blow too on accuracy. It's a great CQB tool....but anything over 40ft - 50ft is a crap shoot. You might as well be throwing spitballs at someone. Maj |
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Everybody is acting like there is only one type of sim round out there. Just because YOUR company used one kind doesn't make it the only kind. Hell, about 5 years ago we used simunition in both pistol and rifle (M9 and M4) and both weapons used the same round. Uppers had to be changed on the M4, barrels had to be changed on the M9. The rounds used were a 7.62mm (yep) projectile that we were told used about 1/3 of the powder that a standard 9mm ball round uses.
It was by far one of the best training environments I've ever been in, but I don't see the market for it on the civilian side. I mean, force on force training is more than just some paintball scenario. It involves a squad (or multiple squads) moving around each other to secure a hostage / room / building / town. None of you can tell me that you and the rest of the guys on your street regularly go out and train room clearing techniques nearly enough to justify buying this stuff. Even if you did, who would be OK with shooting off about 50 rounds of it inside their home? Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the individual's right to keep and bear, but I don't see the true demand for it. Yes, we all want to be able to buy everything that G.I. Joe has available to them, but I think that sometimes companies just know it's better to not to even offer it to the public. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 5.56 simunition (Page 1 of 2)
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