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Posted: 7/3/2009 10:52:01 AM EDT
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I was at Academy today (San Antonio-Military and 410 location) intending to buy some steel-cased 9mm and .40 for range work this weekend. They didn't have ANY of their Monarch brand 9mm and only 2 boxes of their brass-cased .40.
However, I did find Winchester "9mm NATO" boxed ammunition. The cardboard box is plain white with a commercial Winchester logo and all the other text in black on it. Inside, it is just GI 9mm, marked 09. I wasn't aware that they packaged it this way. I only had enough on me to buy two boxes. But then, they only had about 6 or 7 boxes on hand... |
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You can find it on Gunbroker and various other places marked as such. AIM used to sell it a 6 months ago or so. You should go back and clean it out.  If it's a NATO round...it's a 124gr bullet.
Maj It's marked as 124 grain FMJ, the cases are all GI with crimped primers and Winchester's renowned red sealant. If I had more cash handy, I'd have probably already cleaned 'em out. One of the few bad things about being a newly graduated health care professional is that I'm not yet an employed health care professional. License just arrived today, so that's looking up, but my ammo buying has to come after mortgage and bologna. Sadly. Very sadly. 
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I ran across one box of 124g 'Ranger' Nato ammo from academy 2 months ago. Neat that it says "not for retail sale" but I was pissed off when I got home. Needed some good 9mm for a Glock 26 carry pistol, and I didnt realize it was FMJ. Wonder if they will take it back, saying "for law enforcement use only" and not for retail SALES....
http://]http://s665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/Bttrflyttu |
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regretted buying it, it beats up my pistols. what type? Let's see, H&K P7m8 and P9s Sig P210 couple of lugers and a Finnish Lahti I can tell the stuff is hot, I've shot regular 115 grain side by side with it and the diffrence in recoil / noise is noticeable. I just save the 124 grain stuff for the HK94. |
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It's marked as 124 grain FMJ, the cases are all GI with crimped primers and Winchester's renowned red sealant. If I had more cash handy, I'd have probably already cleaned 'em out. One of the few bad things about being a newly graduated health care professional is that I'm not yet an employed health care professional. License just arrived today, so that's looking up, but my ammo buying has to come after mortgage and bologna. Sadly. Very sadly. Congratulations! I've read many of your posts and never knew that you were so young. I thought you may have been older. Aloha, Mark |
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Quoted: 124 grain and slightly hot. Recoils more and has a bit of a bark compared to 115 grain. I bought a bunch of it some time ago because anything military marked gets my attention, found out how hot the stuff was and regretted buying it, it beats up my pistols. Military 9mm is usually loaded rather hot...at least +P pressures from what I've heard. I wouldn't shoot it in anything old or collectible... ETA: I stand corrected...read Molon's posts farther down this page. |
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It's marked as 124 grain FMJ, the cases are all GI with crimped primers and Winchester's renowned red sealant. If I had more cash handy, I'd have probably already cleaned 'em out. One of the few bad things about being a newly graduated health care professional is that I'm not yet an employed health care professional. License just arrived today, so that's looking up, but my ammo buying has to come after mortgage and bologna. Sadly. Very sadly. Congratulations! I've read many of your posts and never knew that you were so young. I thought you may have been older. Aloha, Mark Thanks, Mark. But I retired from the Air Force 4 years ago and just had my 50th birthday. I'm embarking on a second career here. Being in school and not employed is not good for the bottom line, but graduating and being qualified for not only "a" job but a pretty darn good job with pretty darn good pay certainly IS good. 
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Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
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124 grain and slightly hot. Recoils more and has a bit of a bark compared to 115 grain. I bought a bunch of it some time ago because anything military marked gets my attention, found out how hot the stuff was and regretted buying it, it beats up my pistols. Military 9mm is usually loaded rather hot...at least +P pressures from what I've heard. I wouldn't shoot it in anything old or collectible... I've put a bunch of GI rounds through Berettas (on active duty), so I'm ready for what to expect. I think my steel-framed Smith will eat this stuff just fine. |
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However, I did find Winchester "9mm NATO" boxed ammunition. The cardboard box is plain white with a commercial Winchester logo and all the other text in black on it. Inside, it is just GI 9mm, marked 09. I wasn't aware that they packaged it this way. I only had enough on me to buy two boxes. But then, they only had about 6 or 7 boxes on hand... I have seen that packaging before, although for the last year or two I’ve been seeing it packaged in the “Ranger” boxes as shown below. 
Contrary to the nonsense posted here and on other websites as well, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, not actual pistols. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain hollow point round. As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot (standard pressure load) fired from a Beretta 92. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps. 
Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load. 
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Quoted: Quoted: However, I did find Winchester "9mm NATO" boxed ammunition. The cardboard box is plain white with a commercial Winchester logo and all the other text in black on it. Inside, it is just GI 9mm, marked 09. I wasn't aware that they packaged it this way. I only had enough on me to buy two boxes. But then, they only had about 6 or 7 boxes on hand... I have seen that packaging before, although for the last year or two I’ve been seeing it packaged in the “Ranger” boxes as shown below. http://www.box.net/shared/static/rk0xakhvrv.jpg Contrary to the nonsense posted here and on other websites as well, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, not actual pistols. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain hollow point round. As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot (standard pressure load) fired from a Beretta 92. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps. http://www.box.net/shared/static/cp3y2jeqay.jpg Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/l7tg7c45k0.jpg Interesting. Didn't realize that M882 was standard pressure. Thanks for posting that...the "chrono o' truth". |
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However, I did find Winchester "9mm NATO" boxed ammunition. The cardboard box is plain white with a commercial Winchester logo and all the other text in black on it. Inside, it is just GI 9mm, marked 09. I wasn't aware that they packaged it this way. I only had enough on me to buy two boxes. But then, they only had about 6 or 7 boxes on hand... I have seen that packaging before, although for the last year or two I’ve been seeing it packaged in the “Ranger” boxes as shown below. http://www.box.net/shared/static/rk0xakhvrv.jpg Contrary to the nonsense posted here and on other websites as well, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, not actual pistols. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain hollow point round. As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot (standard pressure load) fired from a Beretta 92. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps. http://www.box.net/shared/static/cp3y2jeqay.jpg Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/l7tg7c45k0.jpg Interesting. We are always told the M882 rates 1230 fps. Maybe this stuff is XM882
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Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
Interesting. Didn't realize that M882 was standard pressure. Thanks for posting that...the "chrono o' truth".
Here is some additional chronograph data, this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other commercial 124 grain loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. 
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Interesting. We are always told the M882 rates 1230 fps . . . . . . from a test barrel. Everyone seems to leave that part out. That would explain it. OR even the rumors of 115 grain M882 loads out there? I know 9 grains lighter doesn't translate to another 100+fps either. |
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Quoted: what length is a 9mm test barrel? i think i have read enough of your reports to know that for 223/556 it is 24". are all test brls the same length or does it differ from manf to manf?Quoted: Interesting. We are always told the M882 rates 1230 fps . . . . . . from a test barrel. Everyone seems to leave that part out. why don't they use brl lengths that are the most used? so for 223/556 they could go 18 or so to compensate for ar and bolt differences and pistol go 4"? seems testing w/ lengths that only a very few people actually use outside of developers is kind of pointless. guess it is marketing and a way to keep costs down, though, not sure, just kind of rambling at this point....  |
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I'm pretty sure that the test barrel is not only longer than in a Beretta (which has a 4.9" barrel) but it's also a fixed barrel in a test fixture-a single shot setup.
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what length is a 9mm test barrel? i think i have read enough of your reports to know that for 223/556 it is 24". are all test brls the same length or does it differ from manf to manf?
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Interesting. We are always told the M882 rates 1230 fps . . . . . . from a test barrel. Everyone seems to leave that part out. why don't they use brl lengths that are the most used? so for 223/556 they could go 18 or so to compensate for ar and bolt differences and pistol go 4"? seems testing w/ lengths that only a very few people actually use outside of developers is kind of pointless. guess it is marketing and a way to keep costs down, though, not sure, just kind of rambling at this point....
My copy of TM 43-0001-27, Small Arms Data Sheets, dated April, 1994, lists the M882 round as having a 112gr projectile, with an MV of 1263±5fps measured 15 ft from the muzzle. It does not, however, have the test setup for this measurement. That would be in the specification for the round, and I don't have that handy. Obviously M882 has been upgraded from the lighter bullet since that time, but I don't know if enough people are paying attention to the details in this particular area. Edit to add: A little searching has turned up some details from the STANAG (which is harder to find online than MIL-Specs). Testing is done with a 7.85" EPVAT barrel. That's much longer than the typically ~5" barrel in service pistols, and could easily explain the spec's higher velocities than what Molon measured with his Beretta. I guess almost 8" is a compromise between a pistol barrel and an SMG barrel? |
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