OTM??? > Ammunition

Posted: 2/8/2008 10:26:39 AM EDT

From the Ammo Oracle...

"68 grain Hornady Match OTM
69 grain SMK OTM
75 grain Hornady TAP
77 grain Nosler OTM"

What does OTM stand for?

Posted: 2/8/2008 10:40:30 AM EDT

[#1]

Open Tip Match

Posted: 2/8/2008 1:31:45 PM EDT

[#2]

OTM to me is a MATCH BULLET like the 77gr SMK etc

Some REGULAR TYPE HP have the lead that also hollow out

Not just a OPEN Tip like the 77smk

Thats my take

some guys think OTM = HP

Posted: 2/8/2008 2:04:18 PM EDT

[#3]

The 69gr BTHP is what Sierra has in their catalogue next to the 69gr OTM. Thus it could be argued that HP=OTM, but OTM may not = the conventional HP as OTM is not designed to (nor will it 99% of the time) fragment.

It is all semantics. Basically OTM is Open Tip Match and the hole is only there to improve balance, stability in flight, and accuracy therefor.

Posted: 2/8/2008 4:16:08 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
The 69gr BTHP is what Sierra has in their catalogue next to the 69gr OTM. Thus it could be argued that HP=OTM, but OTM may not = the conventional HP as OTM is not designed to (nor will it 99% of the time) fragment.

It is all semantics. Basically OTM is Open Tip Match and the hole is only there to improve balance, stability in flight, and accuracy therefor.

IMHO........It's POLITICAL........

HP ain't acceptable to kill Taliban. But, using an OTM is. Not that I really care.

Aloha, Mark

Posted: 2/8/2008 5:33:55 PM EDT

[#5]

OTM bullets are "open" only in that the jacket is formed and filled from the nose end. There is no attempt to form a hollow point, and when you inspect these bullets you see only a tiny opening at the tip. By forming the bullet this way, the base is much more uniform and this tends to translate into improved accuracy over FMJ bullets which are formed from the base end and whose bases are less uniform. OTM bullets DO NOT deform or expand more than FMJ bullets of the same weight and at the same velocity. Further, there is no "hollow" of any real volume, only a very tiny space inside the tip that the core cannot quite fill.

It should be noted that ALL spitzer bullets will tumble on impact, causing more serious wounding than round nosed bullets of the same weight and velocity. However this is a result of their aerodynamic shape, not a design purpose. Spitzers were introduced in the same time frame as "dum-dum" bullets and it was the latter that were considered inhumane, not the former.

There's a very good illustration and discussion of such bullets here.

Posted: 2/8/2008 6:21:37 PM EDT

[#6]

OTM bullets are "open" only in that the jacket is formed and filled from the nose end. There is no attempt to form a hollow point, and when you inspect these bullets you see only a tiny opening at the tip. By forming the bullet this way, the base is much more uniform and this tends to translate into improved accuracy over FMJ bullets which are formed from the base end and whose bases are less uniform. OTM bullets DO NOT deform or expand more than FMJ bullets of the same weight and at the same velocity. Further, there is no "hollow" of any real volume, only a very tiny space inside the tip that the core cannot quite fill.

Blue........that's how they make the HPBT, the reason "accuracy."
Green.........a look at my 168 gr. HPBT.......there is also only a tiny opening.
Red........the DEAD don't care, what they are shot with.

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From your link.........(BTW, thank you for the link).........

A week or so ago, there was an interesting article over at Murdoc's site concerning a Army JAG who issued an order banning snipers from using open tip rifle bullets over concern that they are similar to expanding hollow point bullets. Blackfive also posted about this issue. The open tip bullets are used because they are more accurate than regular full metal jacketed military bullets and, in fact, are not expanding bullets at all.

Murdoc and Blackfive have pretty good discussions of the legality of open tip and hollow point bullets and the degree to which the JAG stepped out of bounds. Specifically, it appears that JAGs are not even authorized to issue these types of orders in the first place. They advise commanders who then issue orders based on that advice.

As I said.........POLITICAL. Not as in: Dems vs. Reps. But, as in: I have an idea vs. your idea whiich is different.....and we all claim to want what's BEST.

As it was said in Shakespeare's quote, from Henry VI: "THE FIRST THING WE DO, LET'S KILL ALL THE LAWYERS."

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Then.........

Q. Isn't against the Geneva Convention for the Military to use hollowpoint or fragmenting ammo?

You probably mean the Hague Peace Conference held in July 1899. That was when "bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body" were first proscribed. The United States was never a signatory to the Hague Peace Conference which meant that not only could the United States use those rounds but also that if the US entered a conflict all the other parties could use them too.

The United States did, however, sign the Hague Convention 1907, Article 23(e) which forbade: "...arms, projectiles, or material (sic) calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." As a result, US snipers used M-118 ammo, a "Match" version of M-80 ball. (7.62×51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail).

In late 1985, the Judge Advocate General wrote an opinion which affirmed that expanding ammo was legal for the US to use in operations "not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State" (like counter terrorist operations, for example).

In 1990, another opinion permitted the use of the Sierra MatchKing hollowpoint round by US snipers, reasoning that it was not designed to expand or fragment and that the hollowpoint design was a result of the requirements for manufacturing super-accurate bullets.

Then in 1993 Special Operations Command was given the go-ahead by the Judge Advocate General to equip their forces with JHP rounds (Winchester "Black Talon" at the time) for their H&K MK 23 pistols.

Purple.........that's RIGHT......cause: "We were looking for accuracy. We didn't design it to be good at expansion or fragmentation." You can say most anything over and over again, til it becomes the truth.

Wait a second......can you use the word "HP" in explaining what it is, while at the same time, trying to justify it's use for combat as an OTM? Is that double speak?

Quick, call a LAWYER.

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But......what's the beef?

So, 1985.......HP is OK for shooting only enemy combatants (not REAL soliders}.

Then the 1990 rule........re-defined HP. OTM becomes the Military speak. Cause, an OTM is not, "designed to expand or fragment." The line is drawn between what's acceptable and what's not.

The difference between the open-tip and the hollow point is that the open tip is a design feature that improves accuracy while the hollow point is designed for increasing damage when it hits a target.

So, an OTM becomes a "good" HP bullet. While at the same time, the traditional words "HP bullet," can still useful to describe, an expanding/fragmenting bullet.......that is verboten. As 12-gauge said: semantics

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I doubt that my 168 gr. HPBT Match bullets were designed to hunt with. And, I don't want to argue the details of construction........IMHO, the tip is either closed or it's not. Calling it something else........doesn't make it less lethal. Except, maybe to a LAWYER.

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So, try just looking at the 168 gr. HPBT and the M118LR bullet, side by side without an x-ray machine. O.K., besides the length due to the wt. difference.........how would the "normal" solider KNOW?

Say what if: I'm a TALIBAN fighter and I captured a US solider that was found with "OTM" ammo. As, a good fanatic, I should/could, just take you out back and "decide the problem." In my mind (as TALIBAN) I'd be justified in thinking that the American was using a HP bullet. But........that would be illegal. Who cares about what the lawyers think?

I'm on a mission from GOD. ALLAH AKBAR!!!

________________________________________________

Aloha, Mark

Posted: 2/8/2008 8:44:23 PM EDT

[#7]

The best summary is probably...........

Bullet Description.

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base. Design purpose of the MatchKing was not to produce a bullet that would expand or flatten easily on impact with the human body, or otherwise cause wounds greater than those caused by standard military small arms ammunition.

So.....although called the 168 gr HPBT bullet by civilians and used by the military in M852 ammo. It's an OTM in Military speak. Forget about what use to be printed on the box. "Not Authorized for Combat Use"

And, the 175 SMK bullet used in the M118LR is also an OTM bullet. (But, the Military won't use the word HPBT when describing it).

Both, are O.K. for WARFARE.

Aloha, Mark

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