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Posted: 10/20/2007 6:47:31 AM EDT
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If one wanted to set up a commercial ammunition factory. What kind of equipment does one buy (name/function). What companies make it or does it have to be custom built? If one wanted to do something on the scale of lake city, do the raw material requirements necessitate truck loads or train loads. I've googled every thing I know to google. Hoped you guys could give me some leads. I've thought about writing lake city but since they are managed by a possible competitor, I didn't know how thrilled they would be at providing that kind of information. |
| zombiehunter, you must have some deep pockets to be thinking Lake City scale. If your like most of us I think the $20,000 machine would be a better starting point. I looked into this about a year and a half ago. It was very hard to find any info on equipment if not impossible. $20K was about the number I was finding to expect for start up equipment. I think the market is a good opportunity to get something started but my current bussiness keeps me from making a go of it. Besides I don't know if I am in a hurry to go through what you gotta go through with a start up. That first year can be some scarry shit. |
Really ? Then please tell us your plan. This is what you need to get started : camdexloader.com/2200SmallRifle.aspx (Watch the videos, drool worthy with today's ammo costs.) For pistol ammo : www.ammoload.com |
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I don't know if I am that smart or much of a business man, I doubt I'll know that for another 10 years or more but I do know this.....Don't let the sorry broke dicks out there who will give you every reason in the world why you can't do it get to you. Just because they couldn't do it doesn't mean a thing. There are more of those people out there working for the few who took the plung. Sure, you might answere phones and do a bunch of BS all day and then spend all night making ammo. Then you might have no orders and spend all day and all night trying to figure out how you can do it again. If it were easy everyone would have their own gig and thats why owning your own successfull business is a big deal. In boot camp I opened my mouth and kept running when I had to vomit. I tightened the laces on my boots when my ankles could hardly support my weight. I simply pushed harder when I felt my mind or body would give. Same damn thing. I don't have any usefull info about your idea but I know a little about fortitude and determination. Like Teddy Rosevelt said, "I'll make my own body." or something to that nature. You make you, don't let anyone else make you. As far as writing to Lake City who knows. They, or others, might be more open than you think. If your concerned tell them you are writeing a college paper on manufacturing and you chose the ammunition industry. Ask if you could request some info. Whatever angle you want to take. In my industry there are those company's that are assholes and then there are those of us (majority) that have no problem helping each other out. I like the fact that one of my competitors is accross the street for many reasons. Just don't trust everyone, business is business. These company's that make this equipment have an interest in your success. It is their life blood to see the industry grow so don't be afraid to talk with those people. If you don't make it they don't sell their product. Be honest with them. Don't worry about materials so much, doors will start opening. Eventually suppliers will find you. If you need a forklift to get your lead off a truck find another local small business owner with a forklift. If you came to my place and offered me $20 to pick something off a truck for you so you could load it in your minivan little by little I'd take the $20 and take my kid to chuckee cheese that night. Just deal with things as they come up. Edited: The $20K I came up with was extreemly arbitrary and had nothing solid behind it. Start by looking into the links in this thread. I would be very interested in knowing what those company's have to say to you if your so inclined to shoot me a PM down the road. If you were local I would even be willing to talk about doing a little investing in this type of venture. Just don't have time to takle it in a controlling aspect. |
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I would think you'd model your business on some of the more popular reloaders, like Black Hills, Ultramax, Georgia Arms, Hunting Shack Munitions, and even Winconsin Cartridge. I'm sure all of these companies started out with a few $20K loading machines and a few pallets of components. You need ammo loading machines, but you also need reliable suppliers of brass and bullets. Think of the new unfired unprimed Guat brass that Wideners was selling for $95/K. 500K of that stuff would be a great start, as would a contract with whomever is selling Wideners those M193 and M855 bullets by the truckload. All of these folks sell new or reloaded ammo for a pretty fair market price. You can choose to compete on either price or quality. To get started with volume deals, perhaps contract with some local police departments or contract with some of the guys who are running these carbine training courses to act as promoters. I'd reckon to get started you'd better be pretty good at negotiating supply contracts and make ammo that comes in more than $50/K less than your established competitors. Basic safety/quality control had better be pretty thorough as well. I bought some Ultramax recently and found 2 rounds in 400 that had a split neck and a crack in the case near the head. This is an unacceptable reject rate for someone attempting to establish a reputation. |
Nope, not first in line. An no one is knocking him down. He has a nightmare of paperwork do and an assload of cash to spend before he starts. Quality control, warranty and customer service will be number one when he starts out. Good luck. |
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The big ammo companies for the most part- Remington, Winchester, Federal started LONG before there was an EPA or an OSHA....In the case of Remington they were making firearms only 20+ years after the American Revolution ended! They had tens of millions of dollars in the bank before they had to consider any of the current nightmare of regulatory red tape. They had successful business models and lawyers on retainer..... They also in many cases had other products that they produced, which, very importantly allowed them to weather any off times.....You know, like when AIM or somebody else dumps .308 on the market for 5 years running at FAR UNDER what you could even begin to buy components for -think 1999-2004 for example...... We go through this about every 2-3 months it seems. Somebody doesn't like what ammo costs so they talk about starting their own company. Heres' a few things to think about- starting with the very most basic ideas- 1. Are you going to be an assembler or a manufacturer? If assembler things are a little easier....but we'll assume manufacturer for now. 1. You will need brass cases, the cases are made on individual "dies" and drawn from brass slugs....find a die supplier and press maker....good luck. Oh, and a supplier of brass. 2. You will need primers. Someone is going to have to make the little primer cups...no big deal....what are you going to fill them with? Some recipe you got out of the Anarchists Cookbook? Who will test these for you (for you insurance company actually to check their brissance, consistency....as everyone knows primers make a big difference in powder burn rates and hence PRESSURE.....) 3. Bullets....much easier...all you have to do is find someone to supply you with the copper tubing in the correct diameter, lead wire and the swaging dies.... 4. Powder...oh, this will be fun......try getting a permit to start an EXPLOSIVES factory these days (most neighbors get kinda antsy about this part).....get to know your local Homeland Security guys real well! And the OSHA guy and the EPA guy.....From time to time powder factories blow the hell up, even modern ones...when they do...not good. You will need stainless steel lines, mixing vats,....mostly specialized equipment....find a supplier...good luck. You do have a first rate Chemist lined up don't you? Somebody who will be able to formulate powders from scratch and have them tested? All of this takes INCREDIBLE amounts of money and the ability to walk away from a substantial investment should things either not get permitted, a supplier fail to deliver, a contractor go under.......So.... Let's say you decide you're just going to be an "ammo assembler"...you will buy all your cases, powder, primers etc...from someone else....A wise decision. However, the number of folks who make Powder, primers, cases etc....are VERY SMALL...why? See above. Those people already have about as much business as they can handle (they are not huge companies for the most part) because many of them supply the major and minor manufacturers/assemblers.....Which means that you go to the end of the supply line....they will fill your order when they have slack...which these days means NEVER. If they have been working with Black Hills for 10 years and their checks are ALWAYS good....why are they going to deal with you when Black Hills has told them, "I'll take every friggen bullet you can make for the next 10 months"? What do you do when you have 200,000 cases, primers and bullets but NO powder, specifically the powder that your load is based around.....can you substitute, sure....back to the pressure lab again etc....Ballisticians aren't exaclty a dime a dozen..... I wish you luck- but starting an ammo factory is about as practical an idea as starting a car company these days. |
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I'm kind of selfish-I'd just like to find out how much those cool machines cost! No shoulder strain from operating the progressive, and WAY faster production...it's just too cool for words. I'm sure that if I could afford the machines, I could find a space and power them, and after that, components are a secondary issue. Come on, who wouldn't want his own little ammo plant in the garage? One that didn't take nearly as long as even the fastest progressive setup to put out thousands of rounds. Honestly, I'll bet just about any of us would become a "high-volume" reloader if we could get our hands on these machines. But setting up a business? No thank you! Not just the regulatory stuff we've been discussing, and not just the insurance part either. Sometimes (gasp!) I'm more interested in something other than shooting. Yes, it's true. And being in business means that you have to pay attention to business all the bleeding time. Nope, I'll pay out the nose for a really, REALLY high volume loading setup, but I just won't go into a business for my hobby. |
Who would want to, when a place like this has the power to bust your business? |
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Here is an other company that makes ammo loading machines Linkage |
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I got a hold of camdex. the basic machine for pistol is $27,000. the basic machine for small rifle is $38,500. pistol caliber conversions cost $4100. rifle caliber conversion $9800. pistol loader can do 9mm, 40sw, 38spl, and 45. rifle loader can do 5.56 or 308. if you where to reload, youre going to have to buy the pistol case processor which is $18,000. if you want to reload small rifle, that processor will cost $22,500. case trimmer $22,500. quite pricey. equipment will cost and arm and a leg alone. but that doesnt seem to be the worst of your worries when starting up. as mentioned above it would be simpler to be an ammo assembler. 50-75k would probably get you started in your garage in a pistol caliber. double that would be better. eta - if you had good product and good customer service at a good price, i bet ar15.com would be enough to keep you busy. that would save you on marketing costs at least. |
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do it i say... i actually have been reading up on the same things you are doing and wishing to accomplish.. I have made some great headway except for financing... but Check this out... Go to your local ranges, clubs, and shops. Ask them if they would carry your product to start with. Find out at the ranges etc. what is most often shot most likely 223, 9mm shotgun, 45 etc. I asked if i could advertise with signs and discounts at the firing lines and in club houses. The response i have gotten is postive. No shipping costs for the locals. Little bit of discount also. Hopefully it will work out for you to. Im a ways from getting to my dream but i hope you make it to yours!!! |
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zombiehunter Just curious so don't answer if you are not comfortable but why do you want to get into the ammo making/reloading business? This is an important question with many possible answers. As far as the machines themselves my guess is the machines used in mid to large ammo companies are pretty much custom made. You can get off the shelf automated equipment for a very small operation but It sounds like you are thinking bigger. As long as you are in the research phase I think you should be thinking about things you could do differently to provide a better/less expensive product. You need something unique, something others aren't doing or don't see. The usual answer cited by most wannabes is "I would sell it cheaper and make a little less profit on each sale". In most cases, this is flawed thinking. The reality is most ammo companies are already doing this. some examples of the type brainstorming I'm talking about would be. -what about domestically produced steel cased ammo? Right now all steel cased ammo is made overseas and imported. Setting up an operation like this would likely be cost prohibitive but...... -what if you imported the empty steel cases from a foreign manufacture and loaded the ammo here.. -the steel cases by themselves would likely be cheap compared to brass and the empty case would be light weight. I'm just tossing this out to get you thinking out of the box. |
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