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Posted: 4/1/2006 6:55:58 PM EDT
After a friend of mine fired 3k of XM193PD through his carbine with no function problems of any kind noted, I felt confident enough to buy some despite the mixed reports here. I bought 2k from Natchez when they had a good deal on it.

So far I have been fairly disappointed... a couple of the rounds are clearly unsafe to fire; but at least those are something you can spot visually when loading the magazine. The other problem is I am seeing between 2-3% of the rounds fail to ignite the powder properly. It sounds like a squib round and the bolt doesn't cycle at all. So far all of them have left the barrel; but at substantially reduced velocities. Today I heard one bounce off the wood backstop at the 100yd line.

Every time this happens, I break it open to verify the bore is clear and every time I do I see a trail of unburnt powder all the way down the barrel in a line at the bottom. In addition, unless I boresnake the barrel, the next round goes out really hot (making me think the next round is igniting some of the unburnt powder from the previous round).

So far I have fired about 700rds of the 2k. Out of that batch, I've had probably 10 squibs. Just a heads up that this is NOT first rate ammo and it sure as hell isn't worth the price I see it going for...
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:06:02 PM EDT
I just learned tonight that the PD (bulk packaging) is third class ammo. The boxed is 2nd class (the best avail to us civilians)
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:35:48 AM EDT
Good lord!!!!

If that wont keep people from buying that crap, I dont know what will! That condition you describe has the potential for some serious problems.

I bet all those squibs had pretzels in there.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:40:46 AM EDT
OMFG,

You are playing with dangerous stuff. At least you got a head on your shoulders about it. I'd hate to be doing some double taps with it and not "check" myself fast enough. Certainly a catastrophic failure waiting to happen.

Be super duper extra careful. Ditching it is an option.

SoS
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 12:24:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 12:24:45 PM EDT by wyv3rn]
Good info BR, thank you. It seems the XM193PD has only gotten progressively worse in quality while the XM855PD appears to be improving. I'm sure it has something to do with the ramp down in M193 production vs. M855 production. In pulling some rounds of XM193PD vs. XM193 I noticed some of the XM193PD actually had MUCH more sealant and it was dripping down into the case in little globs, etc. Maybe has something to do with it...
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:15:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
I just learned tonight that the PD (bulk packaging) is third class ammo. The boxed is 2nd class (the best avail to us civilians)



Where did you learn this? On this site? Or the guy at the Gun store?

Granted.. the PD stuff is crappy. But I'm getting tired of reading SPECULATION as though it were FACT on this site!
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:03:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I bet all those squibs had pretzels in there.



I wish! At least I'd have got something for my money :)
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:47:31 PM EDT
Part of the squib problem is low powder or NO powder in the shell.....
Weigh each and every one!!
I picked up a little digital scale for less than $40.....
I find the weight varying a bit much in the XM193PD....
I consider 177, 179 & 181 grains acceptable, and I sort by those weights. Any more or less, and I scrap the round...I have seen some as heavy as 186 grains, and some as light as 150 grains - those had NO POWDER in them and were gonna squib.
I have not had a squip problem since I started weighing each & every round...BTW the reason to sort by weight, is because the same weight round should have the same point of impact.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:51:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:53:44 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By CowboyGunner:
Part of the squib problem is low powder or NO powder in the shell.....
Weigh each and every one!!
I picked up a little digital scale for less than $40.....
I find the weight varying a bit much in the XM193PD....
I consider 177, 179 & 181 grains acceptable, and I sort by those weights. Any more or less, and I scrap the round...I have seen some as heavy as 186 grains, and some as light as 150 grains - those had NO POWDER in them and were gonna squib.
I have not had a squip problem since I started weighing each & every round...BTW the reason to sort by weight, is because the same weight round should have the same point of impact.



Does it make any sense at all to buy ammo that is so unsafe, that you have to hand weigh each round in the first place?

I agree with you that weighing is not a bad idea to find cartidges that are drastically out of spec.... but sorting by weight for POI is not totally logical. Milspec bulk bullets can vary by +-1gr or more, and the cases can vary as well. Powder charges can vary quite a bit as well. By sorting loaded cartridges, instead of individual components, wont help that much, because you cannot dtermine if the round has a variance in the bullet, powder charge, case capacity, or some combination of them.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CowboyGunner:
Part of the squib problem is low powder or NO powder in the shell.....
Weigh each and every one!!



I don't think that will help here. The shells DO have powder in them. I can tell because there is a little trail of it left in the bottom of the barrel when this happens. I am not talking about a little increased fouling; but a pretty obvious trail of powder.

Also, I haven't fired a 5.56mm round with nothing but a primer; but I would be surprised if that provides enough force to throw a 55gr projectile 100yds downrange. So I am getting at least partial burn (I didn't check the bore on that one since I could hear it bounce off the wood backstop so I don't know how well that one burned).
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:10:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

I don't think that will help here. The shells DO have powder in them. I can tell because there is a little trail of it left in the bottom of the barrel when this happens. I am not talking about a little increased fouling; but a pretty obvious trail of powder.

Also, I haven't fired a 5.56mm round with nothing but a primer; but I would be surprised if that provides enough force to throw a 55gr projectile 100yds downrange. So I am getting at least partial burn (I didn't check the bore on that one since I could hear it bounce off the wood backstop so I don't know how well that one burned).



That's a trip, Bro. It's like the powder is contaminated or something. I'd give all that ammo to someone with an Olympic Arms rifle. That way there would be no loss if there were a KB!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:46:58 AM EDT
Fired 276 more rounds today and had 5 more squib loads. Once again, all exited the barrel. Checking the bore after each one 3 showed no signs of powder in the barrel at all (no/little powder loaded?) and 2 showed unburnt powder lying in the barrel but not as much as previous incidents.

Anybody want to trade ?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 9:10:19 AM EDT
you need to carefully shoot that crap up and sell the brass. Yu can get a little of your money back that way.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 9:13:44 AM EDT
it seems that there has been more under powered loads in the 193 PD stuff than the 855 PD. I have some 855PD I got and havent shot yet. I wont get any more of either one.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:06:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 11:06:51 AM EDT by Y4145]
Damn, I just got a case of that stuff over the winter and haven't fired any yet.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:50:10 AM EDT
All XM and XM-PD ammo are Government rejects for one reason or another.

Grade 1 - the ammo the Government accepts and issues to our service members. You'll probably never see this.

Grade 2 - Government rejects based on minor QC issues.

Grade 3 - Government rejects based on major QC issues; i.e., these are the floor sweeps and rounds with dents, case neck damage, BIB, etc.

In Bartholomew's case, lot acceptance testing probably revealed his "squib" loads and the whole lot was rejected.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:23:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P-245:
All XM and XM-PD ammo are Government rejects for one reason or another.

Grade 1 - the ammo the Government accepts and issues to our service members. You'll probably never see this.

Grade 2 - Government rejects based on minor QC issues.

Grade 3 - Government rejects based on major QC issues; i.e., these are the floor sweeps and rounds with dents, case neck damage, BIB, etc.

In Bartholomew's case, lot acceptance testing probably revealed his "squib" loads and the whole lot was rejected.



Are these official grades, or did you make up the criteria?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:26:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:41:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:48:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 12:49:39 PM EDT by ar_mcadams]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
When we were at Blackwater last year, one of the instructors said a student blew up his AR with a squib from PD so they shitcanned the whole pile of it, and they had TON of it.



do you know if it was m855 or m193 stuff?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:34:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 2:42:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 2:45:00 PM EDT by Tromatic]

Originally Posted By CowboyGunner:
Part of the squib problem is low powder or NO powder in the shell.....
Weigh each and every one!!



Easy answer is don't buy junk ammo. The price has gone up for quality ammo from known good suppliers, fact of life. I have too much invested in my rifles, my fingers and the sorry excuse I have for a face to fret over the price. That people still buy this junk, spend time to weigh each one(!) and shoot it is beyond me. Invest in a reloading setup and make your own for GP and buy quality to store.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 2:49:20 PM EDT
Very informative, fellows, thank you. Is anyone able to confirm that loose, boxed rounds should probably be avoided (given that one already avoids any "XM"-type ammo)?

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 3:35:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
(given that one already avoids any "XM"-type ammo)?



Whoa nelly!

avoids and "XM"- type ammo? Why? Federal boxed XM193 has proven pretty damned good, even if it is seconds. It is very much preferred as one of the few domestic M193 spec ammo available for civilian purchase.

It is the -PD stuff that should be avoided.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 3:45:21 PM EDT
You know the price of gov rejects is as much as first line civ ammo all day long. I'm just not TACTICAL enough to risk my rifle shooting shit ammo just so I can have an extra fps or 2 out of the rifle. It's just not worth it to me.

The fact that people continue to buy this junk reject ammo over first rate civ stuff just astounds me. And yes I'm leaving more trash for you uber tactical guys and your mil spec shit to enjoy. Yet you shoot non mil spec ammo in your rifles. And it's not mil spec because the .gov REJECTED IT!!!


I figure whatever or whoever gets shot with my .223 ammo is gonna feel just as much pain/death as getting shot by your reject ammo assuming you took the time to actually WEIGH each and every round before firing it...

Strange world we live in dudes. Just strange

(yes I know I can't spell. No I don't give a damn)
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:28:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
You know the price of gov rejects is as much as first line civ ammo all day long. I'm just not TACTICAL enough to risk my rifle shooting shit ammo just so I can have an extra fps or 2 out of the rifle. It's just not worth it to me.
The fact that people continue to buy this junk reject ammo over first rate civ stuff just astounds me. And yes I'm leaving more trash for you uber tactical guys and your mil spec shit to enjoy. Yet you shoot non mil spec ammo in your rifles. And it's not mil spec because the .gov REJECTED IT!!!
I figure whatever or whoever gets shot with my .223 ammo is gonna feel just as much pain/death as getting shot by your reject ammo assuming you took the time to actually WEIGH each and every round before firing it...
Strange world we live in dudes. Just strange
(yes I know I can't spell. No I don't give a damn)



Spelling is not a problem if no one can figure out what you are trying to say in the first place.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:44:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 9:55:05 PM EDT by Tromatic]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By P-245:
All XM and XM-PD ammo are Government rejects for one reason or another.

Grade 1 - the ammo the Government accepts and issues to our service members. You'll probably never see this.

Grade 2 - Government rejects based on minor QC issues.

Grade 3 - Government rejects based on major QC issues; i.e., these are the floor sweeps and rounds with dents, case neck damage, BIB, etc.

In Bartholomew's case, lot acceptance testing probably revealed his "squib" loads and the whole lot was rejected.



Are these official grades, or did you make up the criteria?



I wonder if I can get acces to the NAR system. If XM193 was rejected by the .mil, we could tell why by the original military lot number. There is a whole range of .mil ammunition condition codes and reasons why ammo is re-classed. I doubt that XM/PD ammo ever made it to the mil in the first place, as ammo that is re-classed in-service usually get used for training, and if it does get shitcanned it gets burned by EOD. The only real problems I recall reading about with small arms ammo (5.56 and 7.62) were corrosion problems form poorly sealed cans of ammo that had been around since John Kerry was a LtJG.

Condition Codes



I'm just not TACTICAL enough to risk my rifle shooting shit ammo just so I can have an extra fps or 2 out of the rifle. It's just not worth it to me.



LC/Fed/Win XM is good, PD anything is bad, and you may want that extra few hundred fps someday.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:02:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 6:04:02 AM EDT by P-245]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By P-245:
All XM and XM-PD ammo are Government rejects for one reason or another.

Grade 1 - the ammo the Government accepts and issues to our service members. You'll probably never see this.

Grade 2 - Government rejects based on minor QC issues.

Grade 3 - Government rejects based on major QC issues; i.e., these are the floor sweeps and rounds with dents, case neck damage, BIB, etc.

In Bartholomew's case, lot acceptance testing probably revealed his "squib" loads and the whole lot was rejected.


Are these official grades, or did you make up the criteria?


The grades, 1, 2, and 3, are what I have read on this forum.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:08:55 AM EDT
Why are people still shooting this shit?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:13:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Fired 276 more rounds today and had 5 more squib loads. Once again, all exited the barrel. Checking the bore after each one 3 showed no signs of powder in the barrel at all (no/little powder loaded?) and 2 showed unburnt powder lying in the barrel but not as much as previous incidents.

Anybody want to trade ?



You got to stop shooting that stuff. At least you are clued into it now but a moment of inattention and Mr. Murphy might just take your rifle. Eat the loss and don't buy any more of it.
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