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Posted: 2/9/2006 9:19:31 PM EDT
Now that Wideners is out of XM193 (the last place on the internet where is was widely available at regular prices) is XM193 a thing of the past, at least as a practical plinking ammo? I ask this because M193 is no longer in production, and since XM193 is 1st line rejects from the M193 line, it reasons to say that there will be no more XM193 comming off the line either.

Is XM193 out? If so, will XM855 gain popularity as good plinking/SHTF ammo?

If not, why?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:49:32 PM EDT
I'm by far not an expert, but I will pass on the rumor/info I've heard. The military has finally phased out the very last of the old 1-12 twist barrels from the A1's. There are none left anywhere in the arsenal. As a result, the factories are going to stop making it. But they still make the XM855. The problem with that is, is that's what the military uses..and in the middle of a war, they're using a LOT.


Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:11:20 PM EDT
So is it true they aren't going to make any M193 anymore? Even if XM193 dies, Winchester Q3131 will still be around. It's too popular of a round on the civvy market to get rid of it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:34:26 AM EDT
The Army no longer has M193 in their budget. The last deliveries will occur my mid-year 2006. The Air Force, however, is still buying a very limited amount of M193 but I do not see this happening for long. Since the commercial market got only the quality rejects and floor sweeps (i.e., XM193 and XM193PD), some limited quanities will trickle in but not for too long. Commercial manufacturers will have to take up the slack if they determine there is a profitable market.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:14:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I ask this because M193 is no longer in production, and since XM193 is 1st line rejects from the M193 line



For the millionth time, I'd ask for any crumb of actual, reliable documentation for either of those two assertions.

I hadn't heard that M193 was not still in production. I'm not calling B.S., but I'd like to see any support of that. I'm really mostly interested in SOLID info that XM193 is "rejects". I just can't believe that a plant could have that volume of rejection.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:33:22 AM EDT
Mirage Technologies has Federal XM-193 lot 106 for sale. It is a bit on the expensive side, $252 for 1,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:26:56 AM EDT
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:33:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.


Woo Hoo only 5 more years!
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:14:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.


Woo Hoo only 5 more years!



20 more years
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:33:20 AM EDT
The day the last 1\12 barreled M-16 is retired, the military will stop ordering 55 gr ammo. Current M193 shares the same brass with the M855 round. The Air Guard is the last branch of the service to have large quantities of A1's in service, and thay are phasing them out as they rebarrel.

As to the status of XM193, 'rejects' dosen't necessaraly mean faulty ammo. Remember it is illegal to sell USGI ammo to the public. It must be demilled and remanufactured, or it must have never been delivered in the first place. XM193 can come from lot testing, and it can also come from production over run or excess production that isn't delivered to the military. In any case it can't be called M193 because it isn't. With the current war, the military needs all the 5.56 it can get, so there is very very little left over for the rest of us.


Originally Posted By markm:

I hadn't heard that M193 was not still in production. I'm not calling B.S., but I'd like to see any support of that. I'm really mostly interested in SOLID info that XM193 is "rejects". I just can't believe that a plant could have that volume of rejection.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:40:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
The day the last 1\12 barreled M-16 is retired, the military will stop ordering 55 gr ammo. Current M193 shares the same brass with the M855 round. The Air Guard is the last branch of the service to have large quantities of A1's in service, and thay are phasing them out as they rebarrel.

As to the status of XM193, 'rejects' dosen't necessaraly mean faulty ammo. Remember it is illegal to sell USGI ammo to the public. It must be demilled and remanufactured, or it must have never been delivered in the first place. XM193 can come from lot testing, and it can also come from production over run or excess production that isn't delivered to the military. In any case it can't be called M193 because it isn't. With the current war, the military needs all the 5.56 it can get, so there is very very little left over for the rest of us.


Originally Posted By markm:

I hadn't heard that M193 was not still in production. I'm not calling B.S., but I'd like to see any support of that. I'm really mostly interested in SOLID info that XM193 is "rejects". I just can't believe that a plant could have that volume of rejection.




You have it exactly sir!
(I love it when someone has it right)
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q3131A:

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.


Woo Hoo only 5 more years!



20 more years


Does it matter? Unless someone changes the rules, we won't be able to get our hands on it, will we?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 1:45:57 PM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
The day the last 1\12 barreled M-16 is retired, the military will stop ordering 55 gr ammo. Current M193 shares the same brass with the M855 round. The Air Guard is the last branch of the service to have large quantities of A1's in service, and thay are phasing them out as they rebarrel.

As to the status of XM193, 'rejects' dosen't necessaraly mean faulty ammo. Remember it is illegal to sell USGI ammo to the public. It must be demilled and remanufactured, or it must have never been delivered in the first place. XM193 can come from lot testing, and it can also come from production over run or excess production that isn't delivered to the military. In any case it can't be called M193 because it isn't. With the current war, the military needs all the 5.56 it can get, so there is very very little left over for the rest of us.



You have it exactly sir!
(I love it when someone has it right)



And you know this to be fact how? The only qualifiable statement made is that the A1 is still in use.

The rest is just constantly perpetuated pap from this site. Although it might be true, I have still have not seen anything to prove any of it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:17:58 PM EDT
What part of my original post wasn't clear to you? Let me break it down one more time and maybe you can tell me what part you don't understand.

Lake City dosen't maintain seperate brass stockpiles for M193 production. Call them if you really want to verify this, but it's been posted numerous times by some very knowledgeable people.

Only the Air Guard has large quantities of M-16A1's left in active service. The Air Guard has the most convoluted collection of hodge podge M-16's in the military. They will swap out barrels, mount M-4 uppers on A1 lowers, and genarally do whatever is most expediant to bring up their small arms up to speed. The Army Guard has just about compleated it's turn in and is fielding A2's or better.

Once there are no weapons in the system for M193, the military stops getting funding for it. As a matter of fact the military plans years ahead for this type of procurement.

Klinton banned the direct sale of DOD produced ammunition to the public. All US manufactured surplus sold to th epublic has been demilled. If it hasn't it is was either never delivered to the government, or it is stolen.

The availability of brass cased ammo in general, and M193 in particular has been has been a documented fact for over a year. The cost has been going up much faster than general market inflation as well. Supply and demand?

You can cry BS, but you'de be wrong.

Oh BTW, I am Sgt. Gold, and I've been dealing with the military supply system for a long, long time. I've seen any number of items phased out of the system and ammo is no exception.


Originally Posted By markm:

And you know this to be fact how? The only qualifiable statement made is that the A1 is still in use.

The rest is just constantly perpetuated pap from this site. Although it might be true, I have still have not seen anything to prove any of it.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:52:32 PM EDT
I have bought a lot of Win. q3131 and A but had never got into the xm193 until I just bought a case of wideners. If that stuff wasn't reject crap I don't know what all the fuss is about. That stuff looked like total sh!t. Every single box in the case I got (lot 111) had 3 or 4 that I would not shoot, bad dents up and down the cases. I would say the fewest dents in a box was 3 and a few had as many as 5. I'll take the Win. anytime.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:28:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By plowboy1989:
I have bought a lot of Win. q3131 and A but had never got into the xm193 until I just bought a case of wideners. If that stuff wasn't reject crap I don't know what all the fuss is about. That stuff looked like total sh!t. Every single box in the case I got (lot 111) had 3 or 4 that I would not shoot, bad dents up and down the cases. I would say the fewest dents in a box was 3 and a few had as many as 5. I'll take the Win. anytime.



I bought 4 cases from Wideners, have shot 3 up, and all were fine
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:10:01 PM EDT
I bought 2 cases and not one problem
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:31:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q3131A:

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.


Woo Hoo only 5 more years!



20 more years



That's funny, cause I distinctly remember hearing Bush/Cheney say: 100yr war/3 generations...
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:47:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 6:49:23 PM EDT by Q3131A]

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By Q3131A:

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:
War we are still at it ,when the TROOPS come home then we will have stockpiles again.


Woo Hoo only 5 more years!



20 more years


Does it matter? Unless someone changes the rules, we won't be able to get our hands on it, will we?



Actually, when the war ends there will be a glut of ammo on the market. The gov't orders ammo years in the future. When the war ends, the orders will already be out. Production capacity will be up, but demand will suddenly drop. The ammo companies (win & fed) will use the excess capacity to produce a bunch of ammo for civilian use.

We will have a glutt.

As far as getting our hands on it, sure we will. The ammo companies will take the surplus and package it for our consumption. Just like Q3131A and XM193.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:56:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 7:03:14 PM EDT by Rmplstlskn]
Then comes IRAN and SYRIA...

The Islamists believe they are in a true jihad against the Crusaders... it isn't going away soon. The stupid cartoon flap shows to what level they are agitated.

I'm glad I bought XM193 hard and heavy when it was cheap and available... now I reload my MATCH heavy-bullet ammo... so I'm set. My M855 has become my plinking ammo... who would have thought.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:58:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
What part of my original post wasn't clear to you? Let me break it down one more time and maybe you can tell me what part you don't understand.



I understand the words that are coming out of your mouth. I want PROOF! WHY is that so hard for you to understand? I'm not calling B.S.



Lake City dosen't maintain seperate brass stockpiles for M193 production. Call them if you really want to verify this, but it's been posted numerous times by some very knowledgeable people.



Who SPECIFICALLY? Not that it means jack shit. There are a LOAD of people here who come off as being knowledgeable, but they're still just keyboard commandos as far as I can tell.



Once there are no weapons in the system for M193, the military stops getting funding for it. As a matter of fact the military plans years ahead for this type of procurement.



Sounds reasonable.



Klinton banned the direct sale of DOD produced ammunition to the public. All US manufactured surplus sold to th epublic has been demilled. If it hasn't it is was either never delivered to the government, or it is stolen.



OLD NEWS, and no one is disputing this.



The availability of brass cased ammo in general, and M193 in particular has been has been a documented fact for over a year. The cost has been going up much faster than general market inflation as well. Supply and demand?

You can cry BS, but you'de be wrong.



Again... I'm not calling B.S. I want reliable proof.



Oh BTW, I am Sgt. Gold, and I've been dealing with the military supply system for a long, long time. I've seen any number of items phased out of the system and ammo is no exception.



OH SNAP! Well that proves it all then!
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 2:18:01 PM EDT
Good. I'm glad we were able to work this out. ;^)


Originally Posted By markm:

OH SNAP! Well that proves it all then!

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:15:57 PM EDT
Mirage Technologies has Federal XM-193 lot 106 for sale---

Interesting --Does the Lot number have anything to do with the date it was made ?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:04:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
Mirage Technologies has Federal XM-193 lot 106 for sale---

Interesting --Does the Lot number have anything to do with the date it was made ?



Yes. The higher the lot # the most recent ammo.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:11:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 9:26:30 AM EDT by lobsterman]
Is the XM193 reallyany better than the Q3131a that i can get for 230-240 per 1000. I used to think that it was but i'm not sure. Looked worse and seemed slightly more accurate.? Neither has ever failed to go bang in any of my rifles.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:20:04 PM EDT
Pretty similar. Interchangeable as far as practice ammo goes.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:28:43 AM EDT
Subscribing to follow markm's temper tantrum.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:09:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
What part of my original post wasn't clear to you? Let me break it down one more time and maybe you can tell me what part you don't understand.



I understand the words that are coming out of your mouth. I want PROOF! WHY is that so hard for you to understand? I'm not calling B.S.



Lake City dosen't maintain seperate brass stockpiles for M193 production. Call them if you really want to verify this, but it's been posted numerous times by some very knowledgeable people.



Who SPECIFICALLY? Not that it means jack shit. There are a LOAD of people here who come off as being knowledgeable, but they're still just keyboard commandos as far as I can tell.



Once there are no weapons in the system for M193, the military stops getting funding for it. As a matter of fact the military plans years ahead for this type of procurement.



Sounds reasonable.



Klinton banned the direct sale of DOD produced ammunition to the public. All US manufactured surplus sold to th epublic has been demilled. If it hasn't it is was either never delivered to the government, or it is stolen.



OLD NEWS, and no one is disputing this.



The availability of brass cased ammo in general, and M193 in particular has been has been a documented fact for over a year. The cost has been going up much faster than general market inflation as well. Supply and demand?

You can cry BS, but you'de be wrong.



Again... I'm not calling B.S. I want reliable proof.



Oh BTW, I am Sgt. Gold, and I've been dealing with the military supply system for a long, long time. I've seen any number of items phased out of the system and ammo is no exception.



OH SNAP! Well that proves it all then!





Shut up markm. No one wants to hear from you. You've contributed SO much to this site.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:34:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:46:12 AM EDT
Forgive my ignorance on this, so the military then is using M855?

From my studying and reading, the purpose of M193 was its fragmenting ability whereas for M855, it does not fragment as well and is intended for piercing harder targets?

Is the military using an inferior round? M193 and Q3131 to me are rather expensive, if you can get it.

I have practice ammo, but want decent SHTF ammo as well, is M855 or XM855PD okay for this?

How does using 55 gr FMJ .223 from PMC, Remington, WWB, etc. stack up against the 855 types? Are they good for plinking only? Do they fragment?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:09:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 9:31:20 PM EDT
Just saw this, sorry for coming in late!

The issue of ammo in the two theaters of operation we are talking about is not limited to or controlled by the rate of twist of the rifles being used. People on the ground there are reporting the use of M193 in M4, A2, and A3 rifles, as well as some of the special rifles, when used for CQB. I am also hearing of the use of M855 in 20" 1 in 9 twist barrels with good results (stopping power). The M193 in 1 in 7 barrels is producing more dramatic stopping results than in the slower twist barrels. I know, I know the external ballistics are not supposed to effect the terminal ballistics. I am passing on what I am hearing from the mouths of some there looking at it. Prove it? No way to actually do that. Take it for what its worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


­
Billy
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:21:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 4:28:07 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
markm: Why don't YOU find the proof then since you're the only one who disagrees with what everyone else has been saying.

Everyone: Let's get back on topic please. Thanks.



I'm not going to get proof cuz I'm not the ONE making the assertion.

OK! I'll just jump on board with the unsubstantiated rumor! If it's said enough times it becomes truth.. right? You fools have this nonsense repeated on this site as though it is FACTUAL!!

Federal or ATK will not discuss this matter just cuz a bunch of Fat internet Tards demand to know!
There's not very many commercial ordinance plants that will allow their production processes to be known, let alone a mil supplier.



Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:18:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bushytale:
Just saw this, sorry for coming in late!

The issue of ammo in the two theaters of operation we are talking about is not limited to or controlled by the rate of twist of the rifles being used. People on the ground there are reporting the use of M193 in M4, A2, and A3 rifles, as well as some of the special rifles, when used for CQB. I am also hearing of the use of M855 in 20" 1 in 9 twist barrels with good results (stopping power).



And who, exactly is using a 20" 1/9 barrel?


The M193 in 1 in 7 barrels is producing more dramatic stopping results than in the slower twist barrels. I know, I know the external ballistics are not supposed to effect the terminal ballistics. I am passing on what I am hearing from the mouths of some there looking at it. Prove it? No way to actually do that. Take it for what its worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Zero dollars?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:30:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 6:31:35 AM EDT by lobsterman]
don't know if its dead but i was happy to pick up a few cases from Eric
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 10:48:19 PM EDT
Ordered a 1000 today.
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