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Posted: 12/31/2005 1:28:19 PM EDT
A buddy gave me a box of RBCD Performance Plus Predator ammo. It is 41gr PPHP. Anyobody heard of this stuff? Any good?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:28:25 PM EDT
This is the best anti-armorpiercing semiblended-metal scaleable platinum-plus pre-deprogramable non-leadfree radially distributing synergistic microfrangible payload projectile in existence. Highly recommended. You should get some more for both anti-counter terrorist black-ops undercover missions and buffalo hunting. Honest. It is cutting edge technology. A totally new generation of munitions and the first step in 21st century technology in the field of small arms ammunition. The ultimate "Military and Law Enforcement" small arms ammunition of the future.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:30:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DocGKR:
This is the best anti-armorpiercing semiblended-metal scaleable platinum-plus pre-deprogramable non-leadfree radially distributing synergistic microfrangible payload projectile in existence. Highly recommended. You should get some more for both anti-counter terrorist black-ops undercover missions and buffalo hunting. Honest. It is cutting edge technology. A totally new generation of munitions and the first step in 21st century technology in the field of small arms ammunition. The ultimate "Military and Law Enforcement" small arms ammunition of the future.



The Doc has been assimilated??!?!? Let him go, Bulmer, you asshole!!

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:02:18 PM EDT
<walks to the back door>

STAN! Get your ass in here! We're talking shit about you, and your craptastic ammo!

­

I have got to stop being such an asshole.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:26:58 PM EDT
I prefer the 20 Grn. ASSTAP load myself.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:08:47 PM EDT
Isn't that the stuff with the tactical nukes on the bullet tip?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:06:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingman26:
Isn't that the stuff with the tactical nukes on the bullet tip?




No, that is the IBTL-AR

Incindiary Bullet Tactical Laser guided - Anti RumpRoast.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:22:23 PM EDT
Yug, guranteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed to blow out your targets asshole
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:13:53 AM EDT
Yeah after I posted this I did a little search and found out that its the stuff that supposedly killed the guy with a butt shot. LOL
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:19:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DocGKR:
This is the best anti-armorpiercing semiblended-metal scaleable platinum-plus pre-deprogramable non-leadfree radially distributing synergistic microfrangible payload projectile in existence. Highly recommended. You should get some more for both anti-counter terrorist black-ops undercover missions and buffalo hunting. Honest. It is cutting edge technology. A totally new generation of munitions and the first step in 21st century technology in the field of small arms ammunition. The ultimate "Military and Law Enforcement" small arms ammunition of the future.



Mr. Roberts, although some of your above comments are in fact true, some of your other comments simply smacked of ignorant hyperbole.

With respect to the validity your March 2002 report to both military and law enforcement agencies that the below Le Mas Ltd. 9mm armor piercing round would create less tissue destruction than any conventional handgun hollow point bullet, the following pictures document the level of ignorance you continue to demonstrate. IIRC, you reported 18 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration without any significant fragmentation or bullet expansion noted similar to that of conventional FMJ ammunition design. Your accuracy for predictions and assessments for the performance of this armor piercing 9mm ammunition based on ballistic gelatin in living tissue is asinine.

The data collected below for the Le Mas Ltd. military/law enforcement 9mm CQB armor piercing handgun ammunition manufactured by RBCD for Le Mas Ltd. is typical for each similar category of impact into living tissue mediums. Your attempts to invalidate this type of non comparable BMT bullet performance between living tissue and ballistic gelatin through argument for the definition of Blended Metal Technology is scape goating for what you have inaccurately predicted.





Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:36:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By YELLOWV:
Yeah after I posted this I did a little search and found out that its the stuff that supposedly killed the guy with a butt shot. LOL



YELLOWV, I don't know what your hands on exposure to the bullet designs you reference are but with respect to the so called lethality of BMT "butt shots" you and your friends in this thread can be the judge. I will keep the presentation simple and just stick to the BMT 9mm ammunition already discussed in my response to the esteemed ballistic expert Gary Roberts. The following pictures chronicle the comparative "butt shot" performance of the Le Mas Ltd. Short Range Armor Piercing 9mm CQB ammunition, M-262 77 grain 5.56 NATO, and M-855 62 grain 5.56 NATO impacts into non ballistic gelatin medium tissue impacts. The Le Mas Ltd. ammunition was fired from a 10.5 inch Olympic arms barrel, while the M-262 5.56 NATO and M-855 5.56 NATO ammunition was fired from a 12 inch 1/7 twist barrel. The distance from end of muzzle to impact was 5 yards.

M-262 77 grain 5.56 NATO from 12 inch 1/7 twist barrel shown below





Le Mas Ltd. Armor Piercing 9mm CQB 10.5 inch barrel shown below





M-855 62 grain 5.56 NATO from 12 inch 1/7 twist barrel shown below



Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:01:52 PM EDT
Here we go again.....

Beer-check

Popcorn-check

I'm ready for the fireworks!
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:29:25 AM EDT
Questions:
I thought 5.56 upset on penetration ansd broke up tumbling? (Very little "bruising" around the wound in the last set of pictures, this tends to debunk the "temporary strech cavity" from this type of bullet , supporting Fackler.)

The first set of pics shows this 5.56 round to have broken up? (multiple blood clots from the fragments)

Did either of these rds exit the leg?

The 9mm (due to evidence of multiple small blood clots) seems to have EXPLODED into tiny fragments? Hi-resolution photo would help but it appears that a radial dispersion of fragments occured in the tissue - how deep was the penetration? The tissue destruction appears to be about 3-5 inches across?
Is the splintered bone a result of a frgment hitting it?
What is the velocity of ths 9CQB rd from a 10" bbl?

Thanks for the info

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:13:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:03:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blueshift:
Questions:
I thought 5.56 upset on penetration ansd broke up tumbling? (Very little "bruising" around the wound in the last set of pictures, this tends to debunk the "temporary strech cavity" from this type of bullet , supporting Fackler.)

The first set of pics shows this 5.56 round to have broken up? (multiple blood clots from the fragments)

Did either of these rds exit the leg?



Both the M-262 and M-855 over penetrate at both rear hams in the targets above. In these types of non gelatin targets over penetration is very consistent with respect to both appendage and thoracic cavity impacts from M-4 and shorter 5.56 barrel lengths from both the M-262 and M-855 even when impacted at 5 yards. With respect to the above target impacts theM-262 exhibited greater rear appendage destruction than the M-855, however the M-855 demonstrated greater tissue destruction with respect to thoracic cavity impacts at the same 5 yard distance. Both the M-262 and M-855 demonstrate poor comparative tissue destruction than that of the Le Mas Short Range Armor Piercing Le Mas 5.56 limited penetration bullet designs. The Le Mas armor piercing handgun ammunition is capable of creating much greater incapacitation probability than either the M-855 or M-262 ammunition when fired from M-4 or shorter 5.56 barrel lengths within CQB environments. I have been told that both the M-262 and M-855 performance in non gelatin targets is even further degraded than what was shown above after penetrating soft 3A armor. The armor piercing Le Mas 5.56 ammo provides dramatic fragmentation after penetrating soft 3A armor even when fired from short 5.56 barrels.


Originally Posted By blueshift:
The 9mm (due to evidence of multiple small blood clots) seems to have EXPLODED into tiny fragments?



I mean no disrespect to your question, but first let me say that Gary Roberts has already stated many times on the Internet, to the US government, and law enforcement agencies around the world that the armor piercing 9mm shown above would not fragment when impacting living tissue. Mr. Roberts has used both ballistic gelatin studies, SEM analysis, and defined the term Blended Metal Technology to prove that what he says is true. If you doubt the accuracy of his ballistic expertise just ask many of the folks here on AR15 who have mimicked his mantra's without question.

With respect to your question and comment above, you are in good company as every single SME medical MD, and every single end user who has impacted living tissue with the Le Mas armor piercing rounds have remarked as you have.


Originally Posted By blueshift:
Hi-resolution photo would help but it appears that a radial dispersion of fragments occured in the tissue - how deep was the penetration? The tissue destruction appears to be about 3-5 inches across?


Is the splintered bone a result of a frgment hitting it?
What is the velocity of ths 9CQB rd from a 10" bbl
Thanks for the info

The radial dispersion of fragments are key to many of the unique tissue signatures created by these armor piercing bullet designs. The depth of penetration tissue destruction shown above spanned the entire appendage. The 9mm AP impact shown above radius of tissue destruction exceeded 5 inches. Without the utilization of flash x-ray photography it could not be determined if bullet fragmentation caused the bone destruction. Three separate, single round appendage impacts were conducted. The trajectory of flight paths was perpendicular towards the rear of the appendage. Although we have seen large bone structures severed with no apparent bullet fragmentation from other caliber impacts I can not answer your question with respect to the above.

The velocity for all of the Le Mas AP handgun ammo through 6-14.5 inch barrels runs between 2225-3000 fps depending on caliber and weapon platform. The above AP 9mm CQB impacts through the 10.5 inch barrel was 2425 fps.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:06:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
oh god...

And it begins again.



Brouhaha, your people below, what Roberts wrote alone would not have been reason
enough alone for me to post non ballistic gelatin impacts.

--------------------------------------------------------
<walks to the back door>
STAN! Get your ass in here! We're talking shit about you, and your craptastic ammo!
---------------------------------------------------------
I prefer the 20 Grn. ASSTAP load myself.
---------------------------------------------------------
Isn't that the stuff with the tactical nukes on the bullet tip?
---------------------------------------------------------
No, that is the IBTL-AR
Incindiary Bullet Tactical Laser guided - Anti RumpRoast.
---------------------------------------------------------
Yug, guranteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed to blow out your targets asshole
---------------------------------------------------------
Yeah after I posted this I did a little search and found out that its the stuff that supposedly killed the guy with a butt shot. LOL
---------------------------------------------------------

<­BR>


Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:51:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 12:53:24 PM EDT by DocGKR]
Stan,

Please get your quotes correct. We have clearly said your ammo does FRAGMENT, but that it is not FRANGIBLE. Big difference.

Why don’t you answer a couple of questions you keep dodging whenever you are asked them:

-- How come you claim LeMas is "Blended Metal Technology" when there in NO blended metal used in the ammo?

-- How come you guys claimed on your web site that LeMas/RBCD is “Lead Free” when in fact it is primarily lead?

-- How come you call it “Platinum Plus Munitions” when LeMas ammo is not constructed with platinum?

-- How come you claim LeMas is “non-comparable technology”, a “new generation of munitions”, a “paradigm of technological innovation”, “the single most significant advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century”, when if fact LeMas uses the same swaged copper-jacket, lead-antimony core designs that have been used in other rifle bullets for decades--only LeMas is firing them at higher than normal velocities?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:16:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:18:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:48:49 PM EDT
How long will it be before these last 2 posts get a response that doesn't sound like techno-jargon-advertising nonsense?

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:18:05 PM EDT
Just a few days into 2006...

Where is the "Not This Shit Again" picure when you need it?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:21:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By BMT:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
oh god...

And it begins again.



Brouhaha, your people below, what Roberts wrote alone would not have been reason
enough alone for me to post non ballistic gelatin impacts.



My people?

Do I own these guys and not know it?

Let me know, I'd like to put some of them to work and take very early retirement.



Brouhaha doesnt own me, and neither does Dr. Roberts. I'm not "their" people. I have a mind of my own, and I have the capability to read and process information, as well as come to my own conclussion.

I believe your ammo is garbage.
I believe you stretch the truth about your ammo, or just down right lie you ass off.
I believe your big assed words are an attempt to cover your ammos poor performance.

I dont believe that really light jacketed soft point, with polmer balls behind them are able to say to themselves,"Gee, this stuff feels like balgel, lets fragment earliy and under perform", nor do I believe they say,"This feels like live pig ass, lets go apeshit".

But what the worst part about all this? Oh, I know, even Marshall and Sanow think this stuff is junk!

Dr Roberts, Brouhaha, we need to hang out, so we can be each others people. We's can be da Terminal Effects Posse. Recognize,fooooo!

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:58:34 AM EDT
AR-15 Response 2 01-05-06


Originally Posted By DocGKR:
Stan,

Please get your quotes correct. We have clearly said your ammo does FRAGMENT, but that it is not FRANGIBLE. Big difference.



Mr. Roberts, please get your quotes correct. Your report dated 11 March 2002 titled, does not contain one single WE statement, just “your’ statements. Furthermore, you did not in fact “clearly or otherwise”, state in your report that the subject 9mm ammo does FRAGMENT, what you did in fact state in your report is shown below as follows,

“FROM: Gary K. Roberts, LCDR, USNR
RE: Preliminary Assessment of the Terminal Wounding Effects of selected RBCD Ammunition.”

4. “Performance of the 9 mm 60 gr “H” load is described in the accompanying illustrations. Tissue damage is comparable to that of other non-expanding 9 mm bullets and is less than that of standard 9 mm JHP designs, since the RBCD bullet does not create as much tissue damage due to it’s smaller recovered diameter, as noted below:”

“Vel = 2006 f/s
Pen = 46 cen/18.1”
Max TC = 8 cm @ 11.5cm,
RD = 0.35
RL = 0.22
RW = 39.5 (43.2 w/end cap)”

9. “The RBCD bullets do not appear to be a true “frangible” design,as significant mass is retained after striking a target.”

You then went on to say,

“the RBCD 9 mm 60 gr “H” bullet: Despite hyperbole presented by both the media and bullet manufacturer, wounding effects were noted to be similar to those of other 9 mm bullets which exhibit equivalent recovered diameters and penetration depths The bullet performed the same when fired through 4 layers of denim.”

Mr. Roberts why did you inaccurately report the actual living tissue destruction performance created by the RBCD 9mm bullet in your government report? Why do you continue to deny the non comparable living tissue destruction performance for this armor piercing 9mm ammunition as shown above from SME documented photos? Please elaborate on any other armor piercing or not, 9mm bullet design in existence today that creates comparable “terminal wounding effects”. Can you please explain how your written professional ballistic gelatin assessment as to the actual performance of this 9mm ammunition is so grossly inaccurate when impacting living tissue? Why did you not tell the truth?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally Posted By DocGKR:

Why don’t you answer a couple of questions you keep dodging whenever you are asked them:

-- How come you claim LeMas is "Blended Metal Technology" when there in NO blended metal used in the ammo?

-- How come you guys claimed on your web site that LeMas/RBCD is “Lead Free” when in fact it is primarily lead?

-- How come you call it “Platinum Plus Munitions” when LeMas ammo is not constructed with platinum?

-- How come you claim LeMas is “non-comparable technology”, a “new generation of munitions”, a “paradigm of technological innovation”, “the single most significant advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century”, when if fact LeMas uses the same swaged copper-jacket, lead-antimony core designs that have been used in other rifle bullets for decades--only LeMas is firing them at higher than normal velocities?



Mr. Roberts, the term “Blended Metal Technology” is a registered trademark, marketing nomenclature owned by RBCD. Your attempts to invalidate the Le Mas Ltd. demonstrated living tissue destruction performance for this armor piercing ammunition via round table “SEM” postulating smacks of political agenda.

The conventional SPEER GOLD DOT, REMINGTON GOLDEN SABER, and WINCHESTER SILVER TIP hollow point bullets contain no gold or silver and do in fact not create greater “tissue wounding effects” than the Le Mas Ltd. handgun ammunition as you have testified. Would you like to compare Le Mas Ltd. non ballistic gelatin actual living tissue performance for those conventional hollow point handgun rounds? I assure you that comparative thoracic cavity impacts are as demonstrative as the rear appendage impacts.

RBCD does manufacture lead free ammunition. Would you like to place an order for some of those product line samples? As you know the product line is quite extensive. If you would like to purchase various lead free rifle bullet designs which demonstrate superior armored glass penetration capability just let me know. I also have various lead free hollow point open cavity handgun armor piercing ammunition designs available that provide unique operational capabilities with velocities up to 3500 fps when fired from a carbine barrel.

No other current commercially manufactured ammunition exists today that provides the specific operational capabilities in both armor and tissue that the Le Mas Ltd. ammunition does. If you know of a per caliber bullet design that does match the specific Le Mas Ltd. demonstrated operational capabilities please step forward. You can even bring your short barreled 6.8 SPC CQB carbine, and I will bring Le Mas Ltd. CQB handgun ammunition and let the SME MD folks determine the outcome in armor and living tissue.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:06:59 PM EDT
BMT and Dr. GR,

So what happened to the testing you guys were supposed to do together with integrated gelatin and live tissue?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:52:21 PM EDT
BMT,

You show us all of this flashy tissue destruction; but does it meet the 12" minimum requirment for penetration?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:57:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
BMT,

You show us all of this flashy tissue destruction; but does it meet the 12" minimum requirment for penetration?



I don't know what you mean to imply by flashy tissue destruction, but with reference to meeting the FBI ballistic gelatin protocols the Le Mas 9mm CQB slightly exceeds the FBI ballistic gelatin penetration protocols of 12-18 inches. So technically the 9mm CQB armor piercing bullet should demonstrate slightly increased over penetration probability when impacting living tissue but that is another subject matter.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:40:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BMT:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
BMT,

You show us all of this flashy tissue destruction; but does it meet the 12" minimum requirment for penetration?



I don't know what you mean to imply by flashy tissue destruction, but with reference to meeting the FBI ballistic gelatin protocols the Le Mas 9mm CQB slightly exceeds the FBI ballistic gelatin penetration protocols of 12-18 inches. So technically the 9mm CQB armor piercing bullet should demonstrate slightly increased over penetration probability when impacting living tissue but that is another subject matter.



When I say flashy I mean that some rounds will make impressive surface wounds that won't make the minimum penetration requirments.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:25:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By BMT:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
BMT,

You show us all of this flashy tissue destruction; but does it meet the 12" minimum requirment for penetration?



I don't know what you mean to imply by flashy tissue destruction, but with reference to meeting the FBI ballistic gelatin protocols the Le Mas 9mm CQB slightly exceeds the FBI ballistic gelatin penetration protocols of 12-18 inches. So technically the 9mm CQB armor piercing bullet should demonstrate slightly increased over penetration probability when impacting living tissue but that is another subject matter.



When I say flashy I mean that some rounds will make impressive surface wounds that won't make the minimum penetration requirments.



Roger that, however both the M-262 and M-855 5.56 impacts shown above would have also met the 12 inch ballistic gelatin requirements you reference, however neither the incappacitation or probable lethality were as signifigant per SME MD personnel as the AP Le Mas 9mm CQB impact was.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:51:56 AM EDT
And what metal is blended into this bullet?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:51:06 AM EDT
First of all, the pics posted by Stan don't mean squat because there is no independent testing. I could shove a bottle of tannerite up a cow's ass and come up with similar pictures. But I digress...

Let me don my all-knowing seer hat and make some predictions:

Stan will continue to selectively answer those posts in which he can obfuscate the facts and appear to score some points. At the same time, he will completely ignore any calls for independent testing or verification of his ammo by unbiased outside sources.

Well - OK. These conclusions aren't hard to reach based on all the other threads with similar content in which he does th same thing.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:55:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:25:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 9:26:59 AM EDT by BMT]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
First of all, the pics posted by Stan don't mean squat because there is no independent testing. I could shove a bottle of tannerite up a cow's ass and come up with similar pictures. But I digress...

Let me don my all-knowing seer hat and make some predictions:

Stan will continue to selectively answer those posts in which he can obfuscate the facts and appear to score some points. At the same time, he will completely ignore any calls for independent testing or verification of his ammo by unbiased outside sources.

Well - OK. These conclusions aren't hard to reach based on all the other threads with similar content in which he does th same thing.



Zukov:
You are making progress, at least you did not alledge the AP 9mm CQB tissue destruction I posted was caused by an alledged contact shot, like the Le Mas armor piercing .45acp CQB non gleatin live tissue impacts I posted here on AR15.com. If you review those pictures you might see some similarities to what is shown with the AP 9mm CQB rounds. If I remember correctly folks around here also thought there were steel ball bearings in that tissue which caused the damage. Please feel free to link those pictures up again to provide comment. Strange, I did not see you reference any of the other live tissue pictures and x-ray data that I have posted on this site or your exotic ammo FAQ.

I will answer questions until they become without point which usually does not take too long around here.

For your information the data I posted with the AP 9mm CQB rounds was an independant test as part of a rather large comparative mult caliber, multi weapon platform testing protocol. These types of independant testing by SME medical personnel have been conducted many times before.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:34:59 AM EDT
BMT,
please tell us again how the bullet can sense whether or not its traveling through something cold like a car door and the when it senses 98.6 degree flesh it knows to EXPLODE..... i love that. I mean you guys can trash Mr. BMT's product all you want but this is THE ammo you need to have when attacked by homicidal meth crazed ham. go ahead and cross-section one with a dremel and youll see what i mean, the polymer ball in the base of the bullet gives this unique round all its genious. it has properties that neither physics or logic can explain. only BMT knows the secret voodoo that makes this painfully unimpressive round so deadly effective in "real world operational environments with dedicated secondary weapons platforms"
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:38:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
oh god...

And it begins again.




HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:02:15 AM EDT
I bought some of this ammo and was very dissapointed.

I read about in a thread (I think over in the High Road) where some guy stated he shot a mastiff with a .380 and just about blew its shoulder off.

In my own experience it had almost no ability to penetrate. I think they wrap lead around a plastic sphere which makes it very fast and I guess explosive in the right circumstaces. But, in both my .40 and .380 the stuff was useless. I used it just so you know on deer which were shot at night under nusiance permits. The ammo would be stopped dear by any bone and not really penetrate or damage tissue. In wood I shot at with my .40 you could pick the lead out with a knife.

The stuff all went into my range bag to use up (costly range ammo).
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:03:42 AM EDT
Whats the ball do? Keep the light round from bleeding off to fast? Increase or equalize pressure like the plastic disk thing REM. puts in their slugs? -Justin
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:26:57 AM EDT
i think its just filler. it occupies space and allows the bullet to collapse and fragment. i believe it was Dr. Roberts who sectioned one and discovered the plastic ball. he also discovered that the "proprietary blended metal" construction is made up of such exotic materials as copper, lead and tin. very very advanced stuff. which is why most of us never understand BMTs adjective heavy jibber-jabber. his made-up jargon is too intellectual for us.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 1:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 1:26:50 PM EDT by ALPHA9000]
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:19:24 PM EDT
I can see it now....The explanation will be that there are "trace proprietary alloys if you examine the analysis....."

Maybe the plastic appearing pellet is "transparant aluminum:"

www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

or some other proprietary substance.....
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:24:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BMT:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
BMT,

You show us all of this flashy tissue destruction; but does it meet the 12" minimum requirment for penetration?



I don't know what you mean to imply by flashy tissue destruction, but with reference to meeting the FBI ballistic gelatin protocols the Le Mas 9mm CQB slightly exceeds the FBI ballistic gelatin penetration protocols of 12-18 inches. So technically the 9mm CQB armor piercing bullet should demonstrate slightly increased over penetration probability when impacting living tissue but that is another subject matter.



OK...so it penetrates deep in gel. Didn't you say that gel testing is inaccurate when testing your RBCDs?

If it's going to fragment when it hits flesh, but stay in tact when it hits non-living matter, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the penetration you claim in your gel tests is woefully inaccurate when describing penetration requirements in a living target?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:19:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BMT:
Zukov:
You are making progress, at least you did not alledge the AP 9mm CQB tissue destruction I posted was caused by an alledged contact shot, like the Le Mas armor piercing .45acp CQB non gleatin live tissue impacts I posted here on AR15.com. If you review those pictures you might see some similarities to what is shown with the AP 9mm CQB rounds. If I remember correctly folks around here also thought there were steel ball bearings in that tissue which caused the damage. Please feel free to link those pictures up again to provide comment. Strange, I did not see you reference any of the other live tissue pictures and x-ray data that I have posted on this site or your exotic ammo FAQ.



I'm not alleging anything, because without independent review, those pics you posted could have come from anything. This is also the reason I will not reference these pictures in the FAQ, because they aren't verifiable. Nor am I alleging that it was a contact shot, because there's no independent data on that either. It could have been from 2" away for all we know.

Credibility - look it up in a dictionary and find out what it means, will ya?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:44:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:28:41 AM EDT by DvlDog]
now according to prior schtick this is the part where BMT posts quotes from shooters who have seen remarkable results from his ammo. as if somehow a pipeline of combat arms schools makes a 22yr old operator a physics professor."omg i shot this one hadji in the ankle and his butthole exploded and his eyeballs popped out"

then he will tell us we just dont understand the magical properties of copper, lead and nylon because they are exotic materiels subjected to a proprietary manufacturing process.

anyone remember the Aguila IQ ammo. in 9mm its a 65gr zinc bullet at 1500fps. same concept ...1/5 the price
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:27:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
now according to prior schtick this is the part where BMT posts quotes from shooters who have seen remarkable results from his ammo. as if somehow a pipeline of combat arms schools makes a 2yr old operator a physics professor."omg i shot this one hadji in the ankle and his butthole exploded and his eyeballs popped out"

then he will tell us we just dont understand the magical properties of copper, lead and nylon because they are exotic materiels subjected to a proprietary manufacturing process.

anyone remember the Aguila IQ ammo. in 9mm its a 65gr zinc bullet at 1500fps. same concept ...1/5 the price



DvlDog:
You are getting a little wrapped around the axle as you are spouting crap you can't back up. Put your money where your mouth is and show anywhere at anytime where I have ever posted a quote from anyone who had ever used the Le Mas ammunition as you describe. You are showing great ignorance with your rant.

If you feel embarrassed that you and many of your fellow posters to both this and other previous related threads about the Le Mas ammunition might also be shown to be full of shit by the plain truth of how these ammunition designs really work in armor and living tissue, just take it like you have a pair. I have certainly made mistakes with my efforts to move the BMT ammunition forward for the last 5 years, but I have never made a mistake with respect to what this ammunition delivers in real armor and real living tissue. Those who have been hands on with the Le Mas Ltd. ammunition know exactly the non ballistic gelatin real world operational validity for the ammunition's performance. You play make believe games with make believe accusations. The validity of the Le Mas Ltd. BMT ammunition is as shown in the AP 9mm CQB tissue pictures posted above. If you have any comparative conventional armor piercing or not, handgun hollow point bullet design data which can duplicate such performance in living tissue I challenge you to bring such data forward.

I watch what is posted here from the so called ballistic gelatin experts on such subject matters as the predicted performance of various conventional handgun hollow point bullets and various conventional 5.56 rounds when fired from short barreled weapons with respect to living tissue destructions, and know for a fact they are full of shit. If those who posts such predictions for bullet performance had actually performed non ballistic gelatin tissue impacts they would know better than what they post. The reality of short barrel conventional M-262 and M-855 5.56 ammunition in non ballistic gelatin tissue is also shown above, as is the comparative performance for the Le Mas AP 9mm handgun ammunition. Please feel free to review that data because the results of those impacts in living tissue are in fact very real.

The IQ ammo you mention, or the Extreme Shock ammo referenced in the "Exotic Ammo" QA Zukov quotes is not the Le Mas Ltd. ammunition. Like wise the Le Mas Ltd. ammunition manufactured by RBCD is not the same complete product line as what is provided to the non military or law enforcement communities due to its primary armor piercing capability.

Although I do not test the performance for non military / law enforcement RBCD ammunition, I can however tell Robertesq1, that the newly designed current "citizen" RBCD .40cal round with Winchester brass delivers greater non ballistic gelatin performance than any conventional .40 caliber hollow point bullet.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:30:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By BMT:
Zukov:
You are making progress, at least you did not alledge the AP 9mm CQB tissue destruction I posted was caused by an alledged contact shot, like the Le Mas armor piercing .45acp CQB non gleatin live tissue impacts I posted here on AR15.com. If you review those pictures you might see some similarities to what is shown with the AP 9mm CQB rounds. If I remember correctly folks around here also thought there were steel ball bearings in that tissue which caused the damage. Please feel free to link those pictures up again to provide comment. Strange, I did not see you reference any of the other live tissue pictures and x-ray data that I have posted on this site or your exotic ammo FAQ.



I'm not alleging anything, because without independent review, those pics you posted could have come from anything. This is also the reason I will not reference these pictures in the FAQ, because they aren't verifiable. Nor am I alleging that it was a contact shot, because there's no independent data on that either. It could have been from 2" away for all we know.

Credibility - look it up in a dictionary and find out what it means, will ya?



Fair enough, perhaps a published independent review might be forthcoming.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:33:41 AM EDT

Fair enough, perhaps a published independent review might be forthcoming.


Will there be any scientific testing involved this time? Or will it be more shooting meat/animals and posting pictures about how "Cool" it looked.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:32:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BMT:

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Credibility - look it up in a dictionary and find out what it means, will ya?



Fair enough, perhaps a published independent review might be forthcoming.



Perhaps multiple non-human primate specimens might emerge from my rectum and traverse the air for a period of time.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:04:02 AM EDT
How 'bout that polymer ball in that light JSP? My homies in da Teminal Effects Posse want to know.


Austrian, you is funny mofo.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:33:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BMT:
Fair enough, perhaps a published independent review might be forthcoming.



Independant scientific review is about all anyone has ever asked for.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:48:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

Originally Posted By BMT:
Fair enough, perhaps a published independent review might be forthcoming.



Independant scientific review is about all anyone has ever asked for.



(chirp chirp) There go those crickets again, way to scare him off with the S word again.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:55:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 11:56:41 PM EDT by DocGKR]

Your report dated 11 March 2002 titled, does not contain one single WE statement, just “your’ statements.


“We” are the researchers dedicated to telling the truth about wound ballistics, including law enforcement, military, and civilian personnel--some whom you met when you visited our facility in 2002; others, both here and elsewhere, you are not acquainted with.


I mean no disrespect to your question, but first let me say that Gary Roberts has already stated many times on the Internet, to the US government, and law enforcement agencies around the world that the armor piercing 9mm shown above would not fragment when impacting living tissue.


Mr. Bulmer, once AGAIN, your ongoing distortion of truth is appalling. We have continually reported that LeMas/RBCD ammunition is a lightweight, high velocity fragmenting design while also pointing out it is NOT frangible as you falsely claim, as noted on page 2 of our first discussion of LeMas RBCD ammunition, “Preliminary Assessment of the Terminal Wounding Effects of selected RBCD Ammunition”, dated 11 March 2002 which states: “The RBCD bullets do not appear to be a true ‘frangible’ design, as significant mass is retained after striking a target”.

This document also clearly reports the fragmenting behavior of the LeMas/RBCD ammunition tested:

Pg 3: 9 mm 60 gr “H” bullet in BG with RW of 39.5 gr, therefore 34.2% fragmentation
Pg 4: 9 mm 60 gr “H” bullet through 5mm aluminum plate with RW of 22.7 gr, thus 62.2% frag
Pg 5: .223 39 gr “State Department” load with RW=13.2 gr, so frag=66.2%


Another example--In the September of 2003 Lightfighter.net thread which you participated in, I posted the following about LeMas/RBCD fragmentation: “Perhaps this is a problem with semantics, but RBCD ammunition FRAGMENTS; despite their claims, it cannot be considered truly frangible, as it does not completely disintegrate into dust against steel plate or other material--the large plastic/nylon center portion always remains intact, along with some larger metal fragments.”

Despite your deceitful and inaccurate comments, the easily proven fact is that from the beginning we have correctly reported LeMas/RBCD fragmentation.


The armor piercing Le Mas 5.56 ammo provides dramatic fragmentation after penetrating soft 3A armor even when fired from short 5.56 barrels.


Hate to break the news to you, but all 5.56 mm ammo pierces level IIIa armor, even from short barrel carbines…


Would you like to compare Le Mas Ltd. non ballistic gelatin actual living tissue performance for those conventional hollow point handgun rounds?


Sure, as long as “the conventional SPEER GOLD DOT, REMINGTON GOLDEN SABER, and WINCHESTER SILVER TIP hollow point bullets” are fired at the same “2225-3000 fps” velocities the LeMas/RBCD are impacting, then you will likely discover similar fragmention patterns and equivalent large shallow temporary cavities.


Mr. Roberts, the term “Blended Metal Technology” is a registered trademark, marketing nomenclature owned by RBCD.


So is there or is there not blended metal (as defined by NSWC Crane: www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVSEA/N00164/N0016404R4846/SynopsisR.html, ASM, or any other recognized materials science organization) in the LeMas/RBCD "Blended Metal Technology" ammo????


“RBCD does manufacture lead free ammunition. Would you like to place an order for some of those product line samples? As you know the product line is quite extensive. If you would like to purchase various lead free rifle bullet designs which demonstrate superior armored glass penetration capability just let me know. I also have various lead free hollow point open cavity handgun armor piercing ammunition designs available that provide unique operational capabilities with velocities up to 3500 fps when fired from a carbine barrel.”


Oh, we’d love to get some more of the LeMas/RBCD ammo--when and where can we get it?

Yes, we are aware that LeMas/RBCD does produce some lead-free ammunition--we have SEM’d and XRF’d some of it; the problem is that YOU stated; “ALL RBCD munitions use lead free components” and this is simply NOT true. Most LeMas/RBCD loads use simple lead/antimony cores and traditional swaged copper jackets.



Although typical of your deceptive BS, why did you fraudulently claim that ALL LeMas/RBCD ammunition is lead-free?

Despite your ludicrous claims, our body of research clearly stands on its own merit--our findings have repeatedly been verified by other test facilities and validated in officer-involved shootings and in combat. Unlike you, I have NO financial interest in the success or failure of LeMas/RBCD or any other product, company, or commercial entity involved in any weapon or ammunition programs, including the 6.8 mm. Let’s see--I want our troops to have the best possible landwarfare legal munitions; as far as I can tell, you are a salesman peddling an unproven product, using deceptive, fraudulent claims. Exactly who is the biased person in this equation ???

Inquiring minds want to know:
--What are the names of the engineers who are designing the LeMas/RBCD BMT bullets and loadings?
--Where can we contact these individuals?
--Where are the LeMas/RBCD BMT bullets made?
--Where are the LeMas/RBCD BMT loads assembled?
--Can we visit the LeMas/RBCD BMT production areas?
--Are the LeMas/RBCD BMT bullets actually made of “blended metal” as defined by NSWC Crane: www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVSEA/N00164/N0016404R4846/SynopsisR.html, ASM, or any other recognized materials science organization?
--What chemical elements are actually present in LeMas/RBCD BMT bullets?
--How does the bullet construction and loading methadology differ between the LeMas/RBCD BMT and conventional bullets?
--What are the measured pressures of the various LeMas/RBCD BMT loadings?
--What are the accuracy results from the various 5.56 mm LeMas/RBCD BMT loadings at 100, 200, 300 and 500 yards?
--Are the LeMas/RBCD BMT loads likely to meet the requirements to be declared legal for landwarfare use by the JAG?


Come on Stan, let's finally have some truth and factual information instead of your usual lies and deception.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:10:40 AM EDT
Doctor Roberts:

It's my guess that Mr. Bulmer will hide behind claims of trade secrets and so forth in order not to respond to your questions. I find this very strange, as he continues to assert that Blended Metal Technology” is a registered trademark, marketing nomenclature owned by RBCD. He is therefore knowledgeable enough to patent/trademark his unique product. As such, he should have no problems revealing more about his designs, as they are surely patented and he would have no need to worry about someone plagiarizing his inventions.
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