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Posted: 12/15/2004 8:01:16 PM EDT
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I am looking to pick up some XM 193(I have never shot it-only Q3131A)and while looking at the pics on ammomans site I saw the cases were marked " FOR TRAINING USE ONLY XM193PD " Is this standard XM193 or down loaded? Same velocities? Does it frag at the same 2700fps threshold? TIA |
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I bought 1000 rds of this XM193PD ammo from Sportsman's Guide. The boxes in the photo on ammoman look identical to mine. Ammoman says that it is "brand new ammo", but there were distinct marks on some of my cartridges that lead me to believe that some of them were once fired brass. That really doesn't bother me, but I wanted to mention it. I do not know if that is common for loose packaged ammo like this. My brass has markings from 2000, 2001 and 2003. EDITED: After reviewing about 100 more rounds I don't see nearly as many of the markings on as many of the rounds as I might've first though. Though out of those 100 rounds I did find two rounds that were dented. The one has small dents on the shoulder of the cartridge, the other's dent is much larger and that one definetly won't be shot. I shot 50 rounds of these yesterday at the range and the performance was excellent. This is my first batch of XM193 so I don't really have anything to compare them to. Infact, I only have 90 rounds through my newly built AR. |
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Here you go.. the images are blurry but I think you can get the idea... There are 3 different cases. Maybe these marks are just due to shipping in a loose package like this, I don't know. Image 1 and 2 are the same cartridge, images 3 and 4 are different rounds. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3 Image 4 Those marks look rather similiar to marks that I see on my spent brass. |
Thank you for this information. I wasn't 100% certain and I am glad I posted pictures and made my (INCORRECT) statement above. Glad this site has set the record straight. |
I just wanted to make sure there is NO DIFFERENCE reliability-wise between this ammunition (XM193PD) and boxed XM193. Can someone verify? Any failures to fire? I plan to load some up on stripper clips and lock it up in an ammo can until the earth opens up and firey goblins come to eat my eyeballs and entrails.    I plan to shoot 1/4 of it to verify nothing wrong with my specific shipment. I have gloves, desiccant, and will be visually inspecting each round just as with my other strategically located stockpiles.  Thanks for your help! |
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Thanks for the replies. As some other have said, my primary concern is the it is "Training Only" and had been down loaded. I had read in another thread that this stuff was also possably military stuff that did not pass muster for primer seal etc.. is there any truth to this?? Thanks |
Yes, that's what XM193 is. Federal currently operates the Army's Lake City plant. Ammo that doesn't pass military QC can be sold commercially by Federal. Incomplete sealant means it won't pass military inspections, but it works just fine for us. -Troy |
I came home and found 2000 rounds of this stuff on my stoop from Ammoman.  I am happy to report that after loading ten 30 round mags and 30 stripper clips that I did not find a single unsatisfactory cartrige. This is good stuff and at a fair price (if you get big 2000 round case... which is packed in four boxes of 500 rounds). First time I ever got it loose rather than boxed up stuff. It took a little longer to load up my mags and clips but it was a great way to pass time while watching a movie. |
I hope you passed on the popcorn: 1. Who wants popcorn fingerprints on all their mags? 2. Who wants to eat popcorn off of dirty ammo fingers? It amazing how much black crap gets on your hands after you load just 90 or so rounds into the mag / stripper clip. I have 2 500rd boxes of that stuff from Sportsman's Guide. I found a couple of bad (dented) rounds. One round has something I have never heard people mention before. At the top of the case where the bullet meets the neck, about 1/4 of neck is bent back on itself. That round is definelty not going into my rifle. I will however keep it for proper disposal in a range box. |
Thanks for clearing that up, Troy. I thought I had read here (I think) that the PD stuff was not as reliable as the standard fare, but I guess that is NOT the case. |
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I think this XM193PD & XM855PD ammo that is being sold is production line rejects and or floor sweepings from high speed loading/packageing equipment. That is why it has to be cleaned before sale, tumbled or vibrated I suppose. This is why your hands are black after handling the rounds. 6-8 weeks ago I ordered 1000 rds of XM855PD from Sportsmanguide. When I got them it was the dirtiest ammo I've ever seen. Some had dents, but not big enough to cause a problem in my opinion. A lot of the rds were stained and had scratches that ran the length of the case. At the time they were $239/1000 delievered and I didn't/don't think that is a good price for this type ammo. I sent them back and got a full refund, including shipping. Sportsmanguide is a primo place to buy from in my book. Two weeks ago I notice the price had come to $179/1000 del. so I thought I'd try another batch for at that price they are worth it. I got them and they are much cleaner but still some show the dents and marks. I think for this price it is hard to beat. Although, if I could get Q3131A for the same price I'd get it. This is just my experience with this ammo, not meant to start a riot. I have yet to shoot any of it but from others experience who have, it looks to be good. Merry Christmas to all. |
Good to know, glad I decided to go with SG and join their "club." With the current incentives, I was able to join the club for about $5 (they gave me free shipping on the order and I used a coupon, plus the club discount.) Now the next time I order I should be able to get a case of XM193PD for about $173 shipped (thanks to that $15 coupon linked on the price list). |
Reading some of the comments above related to those who purchased from Sportsman Guide... I would like to add that the ammo I received from Ammoman looked no different than the boxed up XM193 I usually get from wholesalehunter. The cases were not any dirtier and I observed no dents among the 600 cartriges I handled (note that I handled an entire box of 500 + 100 from a second box). |
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I believe I recall that a while back one of our members posted from the Sandbox that his unit had received several cases of XM855PD, and that they were told it was to be used to zero their weapons and for practice firing, but not to be used as "issue ammo". My guess is that when LC began turning out a fair volume of sealant-challenged ammo, the military decided it was just fine if it was bulk-packed, used quickly and for those limited purposes. If it's Ok for Uncle Sam's finest, it's OK with me. |
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Right, I agree. As long as everyone understands that it's not good enough for issue ammo but good enough for some great shooting ammo for civilians and sight in ammo for the troops. And I think the price charged by the vendors should be reflective of this. I wish one of the vendors or someone who really knows would just tell us what the real story of this ammo is. This is not meant to knock this ammo or the vendors or anyone who buys it, it's just I don't think it should be portrayed as first line, grade A battle issue battle ammo, by anyone. |
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My own personal opinion is that the labeling of the product is "XM" for just that reason. For example, the sporting goods companies sell golf balls with cosmetic blemishes as "X-outs", wherein they stamp a large X over the model name, to indicate that they are not "first rate" product. As to getting the story, I am also of the opinion that we will never get an answer. I suspect that Federal is doing a litlle bit of an end run on Clinton's Executive Order during the 90s which forbade the sale of military surplus ammo to the civilian market. Technicalities may be being played here. If Federal never submits ammo to Govt inspectors which they know will not pass Govt QC anyway, and instead sells it to the civilian marketplace, is it "surplus"? Maybe they don't even want the question raised, because the antigun crowd will raise a big stink and demand an expansion of the definition of "surplus". I see the issue as a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. I am just happy such ammo is available to us, and don't consider it "surplus", which usually implies ammo which has been in storage for some time and therefore cannot be considered "fresh" product, with a corresponding reduction in price. Members have essentially reported a high level of quality and little if any manufacturing defects, just dings and dirt, and it has usually been priced very competitively with the usual civilian product. To me, the availability of this product is a "win-win" for everybody. |
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Joe, I see your point, and had never really thought of it as such. I guess I am more a pessimist as over the years I've seen the gun industry take advantage of it's consumers by putting profits first just like most other industries. Being quiet about the origin is probably to there benefit. I to am glad it's available and I don't believe it is surplus either. With a war going on in two countries, I doubt there will be any mil-spec ammo going any where else. |
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XM = X outs?? So my Bushmaster XM-15 is a factory second? Don't think thats it. I believe the XM naming conventions are just marketing names as a result of der Fuhrer Clinton's ban on surplus ammo. Selling defective "X-out" ammo would be a really good way to have tort lawyers camping on your doorstep, I think the ammo companies are smarter than that. They have just taken the clue that if you have a different name then it's not surplus ammo. Shoot it, it works great! |
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Agreed. I have gone thru several thousands of rounds of XM193, and almost a thousand of XM855, and it's all been absolutely great stuff. Hot, consistently loaded, the brass has been first rate, it has all fed and ejected without issue, and accuracy has always been what I have expected and consistent from one box to the next. Can't ask for any more than that. I don't care if it's polished shiny or not, it only has to go bang every time I shoot it. As I said, if it's good enough for Uncle Sam's Finest, it's OK with me. BTW, no implications were intended that Bushmaster XM products are second-rate. I agree it's a marketing thing. However, Bushmaster would be foolish to call their rifles XM-16's given all the appearances-based AW anti-gun garbage that's been going on since the early 90's, culminating in the Federal AWB in 1994. (And remember, many of us are still stuck with inane state AWBs, even though the Federal AWB has died. The law I must live with in CT actually pre-dated the Federal AWB by about 18 months...luckily it does not include hi-cap mag limits ... go figure). However Bushmaster gets tongue-in-cheek close by using the M, putting the X in front of the M to reduce its first-position dominance, and using 15, as in AR-15, instead of 16. |
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