AR Sponsor
Posted: 11/20/2004 2:30:06 PM EDT
|
I loaded some pulled M2 AP bullets into LC brass several years back, and never tested them. I had some 5/8 steel plate lying around the range today, and decided to pop it with a 150gr Remington-UMC ball round, then two AP rounds...just to see what would happen. Range was 40 yards, angle 0 degrees. The lower left hit is the Remington ball round, the other two are the AP rounds. The ball round did not penetrate.  And a closeup of one of the AP hits. You can see how the jacket and lead stripped off, and the penetrator continued on through the steel.  I no longer have the load data, but I suspect it was IMR 4064, since that's what I used for almost everything back when I loaded these rounds. |
|
Here's the back side of a 1 1/4 inch steel plate with the cores of same said bullet sticking out, only to get these results the things were fired out of a 300WinMag. These were the 2nd load over starting, I bumped the load up a touch more and the 3rd load over starting will now put a hole through the plate at a distance of roughly 75 yards.  You can definitely see how the lead and the jacket strip away early on in the impact and then the steel core continues on through the metal, interestingly the 163grn AP pills have a small bit of lead located at the tip of the bullet between the jacket and the core. Somebody once told me that this helps the bullet to "plant" itself and aids the core in penetrating.  Some time back I got ahold of some steel core 150grn bullets, these had lead placed in the rear of the bullet with the steel core just beneath the jacket at the tip. I was hoping that the lighter bullets with increased velocity(hoping for 3400fps) would succeed in penetrating the steel more easily, to my surprise they were no where near as good a performer, either due to the core material not being of similar quality or the design of the tip causing it to yaw early in it's travel through the medium, or maybe a combination of those factors. All I know is they barely bumped the back plate which was a result I was seeing with my very first loading of the 163grn AP pills in the 300WinMag. |
| I put one thru 2 1/2" of the thick web of an I beam,it only lightly dented the other side bouncing off,the copper jacket scrunched up and ricocheted off the face of the beam landing harmlessly in the back of my truckbed 90 yds away were I was shooting.I never found the hardened part.I wonder how many have been hit by them. |
|
We did some AP shooting at one of our MoDCC shoots. Load data for 30.06 rounds out of a M1 Garand and .308 loads out of a CETME were close enough to consider the results to be close enough to identical (at least for .gov work.) Anyway, we were able to penetrate 1" steel plate about 80% of the time with M2 AP type ammo. (Yes, I handloaded this ammo using specs from my copy of Cartridges of the World). We were able to capture a few of the penetrators, we had placed two pieces of the plate back to back, it would penetrate the first plate the hit the second, stop and fall to the ground. Oh, the only other round we had penetrated the plate with was .50BMG, 8mm mauser, 30.06, M855, nothing else made it through. It made nice neat little holes, very clean edges. We were all impressed. |
www.ammunitionstore.com/ click on reloading stuff txl |
|
Alright, now you've gone and made me post my pics. This is an M2 penetrator core I fired from 70 yards into three sheets of 1/2" mild steel. The core was stopped by the third sheet and lodged in the middle one. I had the sample sheared at a machine shop, then cleaned it up and made the display stand on my mill.      Sniper_Wolfe seemed very interested when I posted these pics a while back, so I took it to Gunstock. Too bad he wasn't there.  Here's another piece that took two hits:   And a piece that took a hit from an M2 and also from a .30-06 soft point hunting round:   Oddly, I have a piece of 5/16" steel I bought as scrap that laughs in the face of regular .30-06 rounds and the armor piercing rounds only gouge the surface without penetrating! I suspect it's AR400 or AR500 steel. I can plasma cut it, but it destroys cobalt drill bits. |
|
Am I mistaken or did that old "rollin your own 308 AP" thread firmly establish that the BATF considers this an "illegal" practice???? If so, (if it is illegal to roll your on 308 AP ammunition) why would folks be posting pics of the ammo they created to a public forum? Perhaps I'm mistaken, Mike |
|
I've loaded up a bunch of 150gr AP. It has the double cannelure and black tip, so it is definately AP (not some "early ball round"). I tried using WC844, mainly because I had a surplus  quantity laying around. Didn't work out all that great, as pressure built well before the velocity did. Have started to experiment with Varget, but building up a load is very slow going when you have to go out of state to do it.
|
FWIW, mine was actual old military surplus. That aside, how could it be illegal to roll your own? The .gov no longer allows loaded ammo to be surplused out, but the pulled components are good to go. ATF has held that M2 AP is legally not subject to control. Reassembling the projectiles to their original configuration couldn't be illegal in the least unless they passed some sort of whacky law governing the actual process of reloading. Even reassembling into a different configuration (like glockguy40's suggestion), it would be a huge stretch to declare that illegal. It's AP pistol caliber ammo that is generally a no-no. |
You are, and I don't really care anyway...
|
BlammO, 308, thanks to TC (Tompson Contender) pistols IS a pistol caliber according to the BATF. 
Okay this ain't the old thread I was referring to, but I think this is what QS is hinting at: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=9&t=287808 excerpt:
However if ya read here: www.impactsites2000.com/site3/news/news59.htm You'll find this, which makes the point made in the older thread which is obviously on the "archive" server and not to be found..... excerpt: § 923 (a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows: (1) If the applicant is a manufacturer- (A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year; (2) If the applicant is an importer- (A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year. (e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition... (k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B). And as if that ain't bad enough for ya, there's this little ditty: § 929(a)(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years. I'm thinking guys that while the M2 AP black-tip 30-06 ammo is specifically excluded from the Armor Piercing List, once it (the pulled AP bullet) is placed into a 308 round, ya've just crossed the LINE in BATF's world. Unless ya've got a license for producing it, as there appears no gray area there to me..... Mike ps - if anyone remembers or has someway to call back up the older 308 AP thread, I'd like to know from someone who "does care", for my own benefit....., seems it went for pages and was quite lively and dang IIRC which way it turned out. |
|
Watch out for the stripped jackets coming back at you. I loaded some pulled M2 AP bulets in .308 Win a while back (dn't remember the lad off the top of my head, but it was using IMR 4895 and data for a 165 grain Sierra SP I believe). Penetrated some 3/8" scrap I had laying around, at about 40-50 yards, but I had a jacket come back at fairly high velocity and nail me in the leg. Didn't break the skin, but it did raise a pretty good welt and could have been serious if it had hit me in the face. Or if it had been about 2 or 3 inches higher and a little to the left... |
None of which applies to anyone who is not "in the business" or committing violent/drug crimes. There's no "gray area" here, nor any "black area" that has anything to do with private citizens loading for non-commercial use. This prohibition only applies to (1) licensed manufacturers/importers/dealers and (2) violent felons and drug offenders. |
I've moved the emphasis to show why it's legal for you to roll your own .308 AP at home. As long as you are not doing it for financial gain, you are not "in the business of" manufacturing. |
Try Hi-Tech, www.iidbs.com/hitech Or Bartlett Reloading, www.gibrass.com/projectiles.html Or Pats Reloading, www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/prices.htm
I am curious about the 300RUM. The 300RUM should spank that bullet at 3500-3600fps with relative ease. 300WinMag puts about 3200fps on the bullet which is a good 400fps over the loading for the 30-06 out of a Garand, 300RUM steps it up by almost the same increment. Definitely would be a nasty round but I can't help but wonder what the limit of the core is before it deteororates from simply being too abused, tunsten is hard and heavy which is great but even it has it's limitations I'm sure. I really want to get some true armour grade steel whether it's 1/4 inch thick or 1/2 inch thick and test the 300WinMag loads against it again. When my 300WinMag is burned out in another 800 rounds or so I've been thinking of chambering for 300RUM, the gun will be built into a tactical rifle that is borderline F-class prone rifle. 300RUM can shoot way the hell out there with VLD bullets which is primarily why I'm interested in it but it doesn't hurt to be able to slaughter some steel with the 163grn bullets. I need to try out some of the bronze/copper solids out there from Barnes. They have a 125grn and a 150grn copper solid Spitzer that I should be able to outright abuse like nothing else in the 300WinMag. Results should be somewhere between that of a lead core bullet and an AP cored bullet, should prove interesting. 125grn bullet at 3600+fps has gotta be nasty. |
AR Sponsor