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11/9/2004 11:22:45 AM EDT
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11/9/2004 12:04:06 PM EDT
[#1]
There's the issue (whether real or imagined) of unstable projectiles, when fired subsonic; largely due to the overly-heavy bullets generally involved.

Be aware that damage caused by a subsonic round in your AAC M4-2000 (baffle-strike concerns) is specifically excluded from warranty coverage; at least that's what it says in my M4-2000's owner's manual. Don't know if they still exclude it that way.

That said, I shoot a LOT of subsonic .22LR's out of my CAR-15 using the M4-2000 with no ill effects at all, but these are 38-40 grain bullets, not the 70-80+ grainers you may come across in subsonic .223 loads.

FWIW, just LOVE the M4-2000/22LR combination. Even with the action cycling, it's still quieter than my GAMO pellet gun.

If you do find a subsonic .223 load that will reliably function at a reasonable price, I'd be interested in it as well.
11/9/2004 1:38:22 PM EDT
[#2]
There's no such thing as "economical" subsonic .223 loaded ammo.  It's an extreme specialty item, made with low-volume components, and in very small quantities.  The price is very high as a result.

I would submit that the reason for this is that nearly everyone quickly figures out the uselessness of subsonic .223 bullets, and the relative bargain of .22LR conversions.

-Troy
11/9/2004 1:45:53 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
There's no such thing as "economical" subsonic .223 loaded ammo.  It's an extreme specialty item, made with low-volume components, and in very small quantities.  The price is very high as a result.

I would submit that the reason for this is that nearly everyone quickly figures out the uselessness of subsonic .223 bullets, and the relative bargain of .22LR conversions.

-Troy



I agree.

Subsonic .308 is more popular, and is used in bolt guns, but a subsonic 5.56 is just too uncommon for the price to be low.

.30 rounds of subsonic .22LR is still gonna ruin someone's day.  And it you are just plinking, then just ignore the 5.56 subs you see.  It ain't worth the trouble.

TRG
11/9/2004 2:03:04 PM EDT
[#4]
I agree with both above. That's why I was hoping the Aguila 60-grain SSS load would work in my ciener unit. If you compare it to a subsonic .223, you've got the same caliber bullet, nearly the same weight bullet, travelling at the same velocity.

Just wasn't meant to be. Now I stick mostly with the rem 38 hp's, and CCI 40-grain solids for subsonic .22 use.
11/9/2004 2:23:38 PM EDT
[#5]
*HIGHJACK*
Do you guys running .22lr uppers with your M4-2000's see excessive fouling?  I had a Fulton .22lr upper but it wouldn't run subsonics. A 10.5" .22lr upper with my AAC can soounds fun. Even more so now that 30 round mags arnt 120$ a piece..........Udog
11/9/2004 2:34:41 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
*HIGHJACK*
Do you guys running .22lr uppers with your M4-2000's see excessive fouling?  I had a Fulton .22lr upper but it wouldn't run subsonics. A 10.5" .22lr upper with my AAC can soounds fun. Even more so now that 30 round mags arnt 120$ a piece..........Udog



Not "excessive" necessarily, but certainly more than with .223 jacketed ammo. Mine is largely due to non-plated bullets, just waxed lead; which is all I can find in "standard velocity", i.e. subsonic, ammo. Firing plated bullets probably would reduce it by a bunch.

If anyone knows of a plated .22LR subsonic load, I'd be forever greatful. Haven't been able to find any.

With the M4-2000 and subsonic .22's, the loudest sound at the rifle is the action, noticeably louder than my GAMO .177 pellet rifle as I mentioned. If shooting a hard target, the bullet does sound like a hammer hit, but not like a gunshot. Frankly, even with supersonics, it's just about as quiet UNTIL the bullet hits the target or passes trees, etc, in flight, for the sonic crack to bounce off. And even then, the sound seems to originate from the target or object passed in flight, not the shooter's location.

Basically, with suppressed supersonic ammo, you can't really tell where the shot came from. With suppressed subsonic, you can't tell there was a shot at all, unless you happen to hear the smack of the bullet on the target.
11/10/2004 5:13:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Where can you get the ciener kits with the 30rd. mags for a decent price?  I haven't been able to find the 30rd. mags anywhere.

11/10/2004 7:33:44 AM EDT
[#8]
I must disagree... Engel 62 gr. jacketed soft point thru my Gemtech is quiter than a pellet gun. And there is plenty of  energy to knock down whatever your target is at 50 yards. The idea is a well placed shot. Those of you who have used it know. Those of you who have not tried it  should. It is however pricy, I have a 150 rounds.
11/10/2004 9:32:41 AM EDT
[#9]
How do you order the Engel and how much is it exactly?
11/10/2004 12:21:06 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
I must disagree... Engel 62 gr. jacketed soft point thru my Gemtech is quiter than a pellet gun. And there is plenty of  energy to knock down whatever your target is at 50 yards. The idea is a well placed shot. Those of you who have used it know. Those of you who have not tried it  should. It is however pricy, I have a 150 rounds.



If it's me you're disagreeing with, I don't think we're actually in disagreement. Isn't the Engel subsonic? If so, its sound level should be in the ball park with subsonic .22LR ammo. Same velocity and absence of sonic crack, etc; although obviously more "thump" with the heavier bullet.

Will the Engel cycle the action reliably? I've never tried subsonic .223's, but have heard and read that it often lacks the gas pressure to cycle the weapon.
11/10/2004 5:32:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I just had a can built for my CZ-22 upper.

Where do you find the Engel?
11/10/2004 10:21:56 PM EDT
[#12]
John, Engle subsonic 223 will not cycle the action. Go to; 'www.srtarms.com' and read about it. 1.00 a round I think. Must have custom brass-

 SCTexas, your CZ come threaded? 10rd. mags?   I would like a 22upper also which is ready for a thread mount can.
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