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Posted: 6/10/2004 5:34:48 AM EDT
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is it any form of penetrator? steel, tungsten etc depleted uranium? what core or insert. Ive seen steelcore and tungsten and the DU rounds but only thought tungsten and DU are AP rounds what are they made of is M855 considered AP |
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IIRC it's a solid bullet, or core made of a single metal. Further they are banned if they can be chambered in a pistol. M855 IIRC was designed to penetrate a steel helmet at 400m. And does so better than M193, but is less effective at most other performance criteria than M193. |
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Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means -- (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pentrator tip in M855 type ammo is mild steel not hardened or specially treated. So it has enhanced abilities compared to a lead bodied bullet. |
Regardless, M855 is not "designed and intended for use in a handgun..." |
That doesn't matter. If there is a handgun available for the caliber, the AP becomes illegal. That happened with M61 .30 cal projectiles because Thompson/Center had a handgun vailable to shoot them. And if somebody creates a .50 BMG pistol, then AP/API/APIT ammo will cease to be made available to us. The ATF has specifically exempted M855. M2 has been removed from the list. When, I don't know. www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm |
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I don't think M855 meets the definition of AP, or really the intent of the law for a few reasons. Most of the bullet weight is still lead. The "penetrator" is mild steel, not hardened. M855 is specifically exempted on the ATF site. I think that is because some were getting caught up on the "penetrator tip" language, and the ATF clarified that M855 didn't meet the AP definition. |
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(17) (A) The term ''ammunition'' means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm. (B) The term ''armor piercing ammunition'' means - (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term ''armor piercing ammunition'' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device. |
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interesting points how they limit AP for just handguns I would figure the increased velocities of a rifle would be restricted more Either way wouldnt any rifle round penetrate a vest just for that reason less any ceramic plates? I was curious as to the issue of penetrators or any solid core bullet issue I guess all green tips fit this criteria? |
That is a rational well thought out idea. As such, it has nothing to do with firearm bans. Armor piercing bullet bans are about one thing, banning bullets, and subsequently guns. Remember the heat the NRA took for opposing banning "cop killer" bullets. IIRC that particular ban would've banned any bullet capable of penetrating the standard issue police vest. It would have effectively banned all big game cartiridges. edit to add: the painted tip is just a way to identify the particular type of ammunition. FAS.Org has a link to the code on their website. |
That is NOT what it said on Ammo-Oracle.com.
and
Nearly any rifle bullet will penetrate typical body armor (Level III and Level IV are rarely worn, due to their bulk, stiffness, and heat retention). The SS-109 was developed to improve long-range penetration of "non-armored" targets like car doors, helmets, and so forth, compared to M193. This was done to get the M249 SAW to meet minimum performance requirements, and at the time it was developed, NO thought was given to SS-109's performance in the M16 or the non-existant M4 carbine, as the bullet designers never anticipated this ammo would be used in these guns. -Troy |
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One of my understandings is that the Soviets were issuing frag vests for their soldiers that had steel inserts and that we needed a round that would defeat these new frag vests. That's one of the reasons for the M-855. These kinds of vests do exist (saw on them on the Russians in Bosnia) and have been in use by at least some European Armys for years. |
This is false. M855 won't penetrate these vest plates at any usable range, and that was never the purpose or justification for M855. www.ammo-oracle.com -Troy |
| In 1998, I had the opportunity to talk with a Development Engineeer from FN regarding the M855 round. He indicated that the only reason for the steel tip, was---by replacing the lighter steel tip with the relatively heavier lead---to move the center of gravity of the bullet back a bit, in turn, creating a bullet which had greater stability in flight. The use of the steel tip in the M855 round had absolutely nothing to do with achieving greater penetration. |
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Well, I hate to break this to you, but he bullsh!tted you. If you study the history of the M855 round (which was a subdevelopment of the M249 SAW program), then you'll know that what I'm telling you is the truth. To summarize: many in the US military were reluctant to replace their M60s with M249s, and were able to have the performance requirements set very high for the XM249. In particular, the focus was long-range performance, with penetration of "hard" objects such as thin-skinned vehicles and the then-current US steel helmet at long range (600m) were requirements. Existing M193 ammo would not have met these requirements, so a new round had to be developed that would. That ammo was M855. As far as adding the steel penetrator for the purpose of making the round "more stable", that's laughable. The steel penetrator makes the bullet less stable because it is very difficult to get the insert in there perfectly straight, and the slightest wobble causes accuracy problems. There would be much easier-to-manufacture, cheaper, and consistant methods of shifting the center of gravity to the rear, so that doesn't begin to make sense. Don't feel bad; I've been handed plenty of BS from company representatives who don't have a clue but want to feel important...  -Troy |
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