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Posted: 1/18/2004 7:22:29 AM EDT
| At a gun show a while back I saw some Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds in 7.62X51mm. Are these legal for the average joe to own? |
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Quoted: At a gun show a while back I saw some Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds in 7.62X51mm. Are these legal for the average joe to own? Yes they are legal to own. It was probably loaded with an SS109 bullet. You can get them in 3006 and 303 as well. Let me add check local and state laws to be sure. |
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Quoted: Quoted: At a gun show a while back I saw some Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds in 7.62X51mm. Are these legal for the average joe to own? Yes they are legal to own. It was probably loaded with an SS109 bullet. You can get them in 3006 and 303 as well. Let me add check local and state laws to be sure. Thanks. The show was in KY, and very little if anything, firearm related is illegal in KY if it is legal under federal law. I don't think the bullet was an SS109, as it appeared to be solid steel. |
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Quoted: At a gun show a while back I saw some Saboted Light Armor Piercing rounds in 7.62X51mm. Are these legal for the average joe to own? Did you happen to see who made these rounds? Was it Olin/Winchester? I don't think they ever sold any military SLAP rounds to civilians. A number of years ago, there was an incident at Picatinny Arsenal where there was radioactive contamination resulting from some experimental 7.62mm SLAP rounds being used by a local Police Department. The military has a standing policy to donate free ammunition to any Police Department that has some kind of "Anti-Drug Enforcement Program". The Roxbury Police Department ended up with tens of thousands of free ammunition. However, a batch of experimental 7.62mm SLAP rounds with Depleted Uranium penetrators were accidentally released to them by our Logistics folks. The ammo was manufactured by some small company in California. Anyway, the cops didn't know what they had, so they fired all of the rounds at their local outdoor firing range thru their M-14s. It wasn't until months later that during an inventory check, Picatinny's logistics folks discovered the mistake. Our office (Radiation Safety) was notified and I had to get dressed up in a full-body Tyvek suit and performed an environmental survey of the range. I also surveyed their M-14 rifles for signs of any DU contamination. Luckily, no contamination was found in their rifles....otherwise we would have to confiscate them. Even after using sensitive Sodium Iodide detectors and GM counters, I was not able to detect any surface radioactive contamination at their range. (Given the fact that the DU penetrators was buried 20 feet or more in their backstop berm, it was not surprising) Anyway, our office did an environmental site analysis to appease the NRC, EPA and the NJDEP. Back to your initial question, the 7.62mm SLAP rounds you saw might be radioactive. The only way to tell is to use a GM counter. How these SLAP rounds ended up in a KS gunshow is simple. Some local military base donated some free ammo to the local police. They then traded this ammo to their local dealer in exchange for guns and/or equipment. |
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Quoted: Radioactive DU? I thought DU was completely inert? That is the misconception that the general population have. However, depleted uranium (DU) is radioactive, period. DU is a by-product of the uranium enrichment process, whereby the U-235 isotopic content of natural uranium is increased and extracted. What is leftover is called depleted uranium. The isotopic concentration of U-235 is less than 0.7 % in DU. Because of this, it is not fissionable and cannot be made into a nuclear weapon. However, DU still emits alpha & beta particles and gamma rays. As an external radioactive hazard, it ranks low compard to other high specific activity radioactive materials like Cobalt-60 or Cesium-137. The alpha particles has a range in air of only a few inches and can be stopped by a couple sheets of paper. The beta particles have a much longer range but it too can be stopped by outer clothing and the dead layer of skin on the human body. In health physics, we call that a skin dose. The gammas, on the other hand, have a much longer range and is more pentrating. It is the primary deep dose contributor to the human body. The real radiological hazard of DU is when it is either ingested, inhaled, or introduced thru a cut on the skin. Thus, DU is primarily an internal radioactive hazard. When introduced internally, the short range alpha & beta radiation surpasses gammas as the dominant hazards. As you know, after the first Gulf War, alot of GIs that survived friendly fire incidents and those that did battlefield assessments were exposed to DU. Some had DU shrapnel in their bodies, while some inhaled aerosolized DU when they came close to burning vehicles strucked with DU penetrators. And then some came into physical contact with DU contaminated vehicles without wearing the proper PPE. In each case, DU was introduced inside the human body. The reason why the military uses DU is actually not because of its radiological properties, but because of its metallurgical properties. It is dense (denser than lead), hard and can be machined into specific geometries. DU is also pyrophoric. And best of all, DU is plentiful because it is a by-product of the uranium enrichment process. Nuclear power plants and R&D labs want the U-235, not the DU. DU is also used for non-military applications such as airplane counterweights and as shielding material for high activity radioactive sources. As for DU being inert, it has a radiological half-life of 4.5 billion years. It will be radioactive for a long, long time. |
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Quoted: Radioactive DU? I thought DU was completely inert? That is the misconception that the general population have. However, depleted uranium (DU) is radioactive, period. DU is a by-product of the uranium enrichment process, whereby the U-235 isotopic content of natural uranium is increased and extracted. What is leftover is called depleted uranium. The isotopic concentration of U-235 is less than 0.7 % in DU. Because of this, it is not fissionable and cannot be made into a nuclear weapon. However, DU still emits alpha & beta particles and gamma rays. As an external radioactive hazard, it ranks low compard to other high specific activity radioactive materials like Cobalt-60 or Cesium-137. The alpha particles has a range in air of only a few inches and can be stopped by a couple sheets of paper. The beta particles have a much longer range but it too can be stopped by outer clothing and the dead layer of skin on the human body. In health physics, we call that a skin dose. The gammas, on the other hand, have a much longer range and is more pentrating. It is the primary deep dose contributor to the human body. The real radiological hazard of DU is when it is either ingested, inhaled, or introduced thru a cut on the skin. Thus, DU is primarily an internal radioactive hazard. When introduced internally, the short range alpha & beta radiation surpasses gammas as the dominant hazards. As you know, after the first Gulf War, alot of GIs that survived friendly fire incidents and those that did battlefield assessments were exposed to DU. Some had DU shrapnel in their bodies, while some inhaled aerosolized DU when they came close to burning vehicles strucked with DU penetrators. And then some came into physical contact with DU contaminated vehicles without wearing the proper PPE. In each case, DU was introduced inside the human body. The reason why the military uses DU is actually not because of its radiological properties, but because of its metallurgical properties. It is dense (denser than lead), hard and can be machined into specific geometries. DU is also pyrophoric. And best of all, DU is plentiful because it is a by-product of the uranium enrichment process. Nuclear power plants and R&D labs want the U-235, not the DU. DU is also used for non-military applications such as airplane counterweights and as shielding material for high activity radioactive sources. As for DU being inert, it has a radiological half-life of 4.5 billion years. It will be radioactive for a long, long time. |
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Roentgen, What do you do for a living? And since you know so much about this, can you compare the dangers of DU to the Uranium ore Carnotite (Hydrated Potassium Uranyl Vanadate)? I used to handle it all the time. I know it's radioactive, but I want to know how much worse DU is. |
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Quoted: Roentgen, What do you do for a living? And since you know so much about this, can you compare the dangers of DU to the Uranium ore Carnotite (Hydrated Potassium Uranyl Vanadate)? I used to handle it all the time. I know it's radioactive, but I want to know how much worse DU is. Brou, I worked for 11 years as a radiation health physicist at Picatinny Arsenal. After I reached my career peak as a GS-12 health physicist, I switched career fields to non-destructive testing. I now work as a radiographer/business manager at Picatinny. It was a good move...I got a promotion to a GS-13. As for carnotite, I have no personal experience dealing with it. However, like any unsealed radioactive material, I hope you were wearing Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) while handling it. At the bare minimum, you should have been wearing disposable surgical gloves and either a film badge or a thermoluminescent dosimeter to monitor your whole body absorbed dose. Additionally, if the ore you were handling had a powder-like coating , you should have been wearing a respirator. Either a half-mask or a full-face respirator with HEPA filter cartridges are required. The radiological risks with carnotite is analagous to those of DU. The primary hazard is when it is accidentally taken inside your body (i.e. inhalation, ingestion, open wound on skin). There should have been someone assigned as a Radiation Safety Officer in your company to train the people, monitor handling, and enforce compliance with radiation safety regulations. As a radiation worker, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) mandates a 5 Rem/Year limit. This takes into account both external dose and internal dose due to uptake of radioactive material by specific body organs. There are also uptake limits imposed on each critical organ by isotope. Internal dosimetry calculations and bioassay analysis are required to determine one's internal dose. As you can see, it can become quite complex. The best way is to completely prevent the entry of radioactive materials into the body in the first place. Engineering controls such as handling unsealed radioactive materials in a chemical fume hood with adequate ventilation to wearing the proper PPE is paramount in preventing cross contamination and entry into the body. |
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Hah! I handled the stuff with my bare hands. We just always made sure to wash our hands to get the powder off. Although geologists have to smell/taste some rocks, I don't think any of us were dumb enough to do that with the Carnotite. This was in school when I was getting my BS in geology. We handled it maybe 20 times in one semester, but where told the radiation levels were extremely low and not to worry. The professor warned us that it was radioactive, but he basically said "Don't carry it around in your pocket and you'll be alright". [:)] I'm not worried about it, although I should check into it some more so I can possibly warn the geology department. If you know of some source that can tell you about it's level of radioactivity, I'd be really interested. BTW, it's one ugly-ass mineral. |
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Ofcourse having a radioactive material floating around inside you is not the greatest thing but like mentioned by others, it's a heavy metal and isn't it the heavy metals that cause all kinds of problems if injested? Airborne lead is bad enough around an indoor range and good ventilation is definitely recommended. Things like getting powdered Tungsten or powdered DU into your system would probably be just as bad as getting lead into your system, either of those two materials are likely to be present in a SLAP type round if not one then the other. I could see why going and testing an indoor shooting range after firing of such rounds could be a concern. |
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Right off the top of my head, I cannot think of a reference on carnotite, but I'll check into it. However, I suspect that the radiological hazards for carnotite is the same as that for natural uranium. External radiation dose is relatively low, but should not be discounted. Localized internal dose would be high. The target organs would be the kidneys, lungs and bones. Depending on the duration and level of exposure, the adverse health effects would be development of latent cancers. True, uranium is a heavy metal and as such poses the chemical toxicity that comes with heavy metal poisoning. However, any compound of uranium can cause severe radiation damage to cells and tissue when taken internally. The high ionization potential of its alpha particles and to a lesser extent, the beta particles, damages human tissue and cells. If the exposure is acute and/or chronic, the damge is irreversible and latent cancers develop. Therefore, unlike other heavy metals, uranium poses a double whammy from its chemical and radiological toxicity. |
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The problems with the SLAP rounds occured with the M60 machine gun, after extended firing. The barrel would get so hot, that the plastic insert holding the sabot would melt, causing the SLAP sabot to potentially go through the barrel crooked, and tear the rifling/and or the barrel to shreds. A normal SLAP round will go through 1.125 inches of cold-rolled steel at 200 yards, due to its ultra-high velocity (4000 fps) and tungsten-alloy sabot penetrator. Be there, done that... [img]http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/winchester/win2.jpg[/img] |
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Okay, that's some blistering performance.... Was wondering what the capability of the round was and now I know. Consider this for comparison, some crazed fool out there managed to get himself a couple of those older 163grn AP pulls from old WWII surplus ammo and he decided to [hanz&franz)"pump them up"[/hanz&franz] by loading them for the 300WinMag chambering. Them thar bullets were smoking out at a solid 3200+fps, test plate down range was a 1 1/4 inch steel plate of unknown composition(best that the fool could manage on his modest income). The plate is fairly hard but exact metalurgy or specific toughness is unknown. At a distance of 80 yards the starting loads were barely managing to buldge the backside of the plate. Moving up another grain and then penetrators were starting to poke out the back side. Finally, after one more bump in the charge weight now we're talking some serious penetration with some cores lodging and some smoking clean through. Oh, here's a pic of the back side of that plate after testing of the 2nd load over starting. [img]http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/penetrated.jpg[/img] I need, er the fool, needs to get some other materials for testing those rounds. Would be nice to test out some of the 7.62Nato SLAP on the same plate to see how it stands up but I'd rather not take possession of any 7.62Nato AP ammo. Pretty sure the bullets that the fool is using are tungsten cored because these cores are standing up to incredible heat/friction upon impact and showing little signs of deformation once they exit the plate. Compare to some 150grn AP bullets that the fool tested, those were of a much more mild or lower quality core construction because they are obviously melting upon impact with the target steel. Craters show signs of moulten material fusing with the target material, craters are very irregular and ugly. Also, little to no signs of buldging on the back side of the plate even though muzzle velocity with the 150s whould be up close to 3400+fps. Suspect that the bullets are deforming/melting on impact then yawing very badly causing them to perform terribly. |
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Ugly, what crazy fool would load up AP ammo like that ??? :) The SLAP rounds should go right through your metal slab. Try loading up some of the .30 caliber API 150 grainers into the ole .300 Win-Mag. Talk about some fun !!! The penetrator is lighter, but the bluish/gray mini-mushroom cloud that appears after impact, is pretty damn cool to watch !!! |
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