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Posted: 10/16/2003 6:09:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 10:46:35 AM EDT by DavidDetroit]
I just ordered the Sapsan (Russian Bimetal) ammo for our rapid fire drills (60 rounds in 60 seconds). Winner is the guy with the most rounds in a 6" diamter circle at 100 meters. It's lots of fun, but it eats ammo like crazy. We don't need sub-moa performance, but we do need something that works well and is cheap.

www.sportsmansguide.com has the stuff cheap.

With my buyers club discount...
$170.94
$016.99 shipping
-$10.00 coupon spg1082 (you can use it too)
-------
$177.93 for 2000 rounds at my front door or under 9 cents per shot.

I'll give you guys a report on how it functions. My understanding from others is that it is better than Wolf and worse than Barnaul. I guess I'll find out soon.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 10:10:19 AM EDT
#1 i dont like you. you just made me buy 2k [;)] #2 if it IS better than wolf, thank you very much for showing me a place to buy better ammo at a lower cost. let us know how it functions in your rifle. and if any one else wants, when i shoot up my 2k, i will post my opinions/comments on it. Stainless
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 10:47:31 AM EDT
Sorry guys, I had the wrong link up for Sportsmansguide.com. It is correct above now.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 10:51:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stainless: #1 i dont like you. you just made me buy 2k [;)] #2 if it IS better than wolf, thank you very much for showing me a place to buy better ammo at a lower cost. let us know how it functions in your rifle. and if any one else wants, when i shoot up my 2k, i will post my opinions/comments on it. Stainless
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I'm just trying to help. Ammo is expensive enough. If we can all help each other out, we can buy at bettr prices. Knowledge is power and this site is a great place to share info. Don't hate me! [:p]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 10:52:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 10:53:27 AM EDT by Zhukov]
Yes - please give a range report. I may add it to the ammunition review if more people start showing interest. If it works at least as well as Wolf, then why not ? obershutze916 said it's Ulyanovsk, so it's made in the same factory as a lot of other stuff.... Made link hot: [url]http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=102047[/url]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 1:09:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 1:14:02 PM EDT by DaPhotoGuy]
Originally Posted By DavidDetroit: I just ordered the Sapsan (Russian Bimetal) ammo for our rapid fire drills (60 rounds in 60 seconds). Winner is the guy with the most rounds in a 6" diamter circle at 100 meters. It's lots of fun, but it eats ammo like crazy. We don't need sub-moa performance, but we do need something that works well and is cheap. www.sportsmansguide.com has the stuff cheap. With my buyers club discount... $170.94 $016.99 shipping -$10.00 coupon spg1082 (you can use it too) ------- $177.93 for 2000 rounds at my front door or under 9 cents per shot. I'll give you guys a report on how it functions. My understanding from others is that it is better than Wolf and worse than Barnaul. I guess I'll find out soon.
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Let me know if it has red sealant on the neck/bullet. From the picture it looks like it does. Would also love to know if it has a copper jacket bullet or a steel jacket with copper plating. Put a magnet on the bullet (not the case). If it sticks, it's steel.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 7:41:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Let me know if it has red sealant on the neck/bullet. From the picture it looks like it does. Would also love to know if it has a copper jacket bullet or a steel jacket with copper plating. Put a magnet on the bullet (not the case). If it sticks, it's steel.
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I think all ammunnition manufactured by our Russian comrades is steel-jacketed. It's just the way their manufacturing is set up. They've figured out a way to do mild steel jackets, and we've got the brass thing happening here. If it's copper jacketed, I'd be EXTREMELY surprised, especially for the price they're selling it for.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:40:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By DavidDetroit: I just ordered the Sapsan (Russian Bimetal) ammo for our rapid fire drills (60 rounds in 60 seconds). Winner is the guy with the most rounds in a 6" diamter circle at 100 meters. It's lots of fun, but it eats ammo like crazy. We don't need sub-moa performance, but we do need something that works well and is cheap. www.sportsmansguide.com has the stuff cheap. With my buyers club discount... $170.94 $016.99 shipping -$10.00 coupon spg1082 (you can use it too) ------- $177.93 for 2000 rounds at my front door or under 9 cents per shot. I'll give you guys a report on how it functions. My understanding from others is that it is better than Wolf and worse than Barnaul. I guess I'll find out soon.
View Quote
Let me know if it has red sealant on the neck/bullet. From the picture it looks like it does. Would also love to know if it has a copper jacket bullet or a steel jacket with copper plating. Put a magnet on the bullet (not the case). If it sticks, it's steel.
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It DOES have the red sealent and the bullet is a bimetal copper over steel. I shoot lots of Barnaul/Silver Bear and it is the same. You simply need to use lots of Hoppes and a chamber brush to clean it out. I would assume a chrome lined barrel/chamber would help too. I know Wolf is copper without the sealer, but I can't get it to group well enough for my needs.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:47:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Let me know if it has red sealant on the neck/bullet. From the picture it looks like it does. Would also love to know if it has a copper jacket bullet or a steel jacket with copper plating. Put a magnet on the bullet (not the case). If it sticks, it's steel.
View Quote
I think all ammunnition manufactured by our Russian comrades is steel-jacketed. It's just the way their manufacturing is set up. They've figured out a way to do mild steel jackets, and we've got the brass thing happening here. If it's copper jacketed, I'd be EXTREMELY surprised, especially for the price they're selling it for.
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Wolf uses a think copper jacket with no steel. It's my guess that the thick jacket is why the round doesn't group as well as the other Russian ammo. Unlike some guys here, I don't shy away from the bimetal jackets. The Russians have shot this type of ammo for 100 years with good luck. I wouldn't go to war with it, but it's fine for plinking ammo.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:56:23 AM EDT
My experience is that Wolf groups tighter in my 16' bull then Barnul does. I've also shot a lot more Wolf through my gun, who knows? maybe it's my gun? maybe it's just me...
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 7:29:38 AM EDT
If you can get Wolf to group, that's a good thing. I simply can't and I gave up trying. I fail to understand why ammo will work in one rifle and not in another, but it seems to be the case.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:12:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 8:13:50 AM EDT by bradcdavis00]
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Let me know if it has red sealant on the neck/bullet. From the picture it looks like it does. Would also love to know if it has a copper jacket bullet or a steel jacket with copper plating. Put a magnet on the bullet (not the case). If it sticks, it's steel.
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If your magnet test shows that the bullets are copper rather than steel I will order a case. Aren't steel cased bullets supposed to be hard on barrels anyway? Brad [sniper]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:33:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bradcdavis00: If your magnet test shows that the bullets are copper rather than steel I will order a case. Aren't steel cased bullets supposed to be hard on barrels anyway? Brad [sniper]
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Please refer to the [url=http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#steel]AR15 Ammo FAQ[/url] The steel case is very mild steel and the rifling is not supposed to come in contact with the steel case due to the copper plating.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:22:41 AM EDT
I emailed sportsmanguide.com and they verified the bullets are copper cladded. "Hello, Thank you for your e-mail. I have spoke to a product specialist regarding item number WX2-78128 this ammo has a copper bullet. Any further questions please feel free to contact us again. Thanks for shopping The Guide. Enjoy The Outdoors, Marilyn Rock "
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:24:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bradcdavis00: I emailed sportsmanguide.com and they verified the bullets are copper cladded. "Hello, Thank you for your e-mail. I have spoke to a product specialist regarding item number WX2-78128 this ammo has a copper bullet. Any further questions please feel free to contact us again. Thanks for shopping The Guide. Enjoy The Outdoors, Marilyn Rock "
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I will have the Sapsan ammo in my hands in a couple days. I'll ops check it as well as check the bullet to see what the real story is. I'm almost certain it's a bimetal jacket, but I'll let you guys know in a few days. As far as I know, Wolf is the only .223 Russian ammo that ISN'T a bimetal jacket.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:34:46 PM EDT
Range report.... Today, we fired 300 rounds of the Sapsan ammo from www.sportsmansguide.com The ammo uses a copper over steel bimetal bullet jacket. It has the red sealer too and uses the mil. spec. coating on the steel case like other Russian ammo. Sapsan is made by Uly. Today, we used two Oly PCR-3s. The PCR-3 uses a .223 chamber for a tighter fit. While this chamber should help the rife group better, one might expect more feed and extraction problems. We used USGI mags with anti-tilt followers. Out of the 300 rounds, we didn't have any feed or extraction problems. All 300 rounds fired without any problems noted. Our 100 meter bench rest today was a battle pack of 7.62x54 ammo (less than perfect). My partner and I each shot 5x 30 round groups looking for trends. We each had a flyer or two on each 30 round group. I would blame that on the shooters. 95% of all hits were inside 2 1/2 MOA. Most were inside 1 1/2 MOA. None were beyond 4 MOA. My guess is that we could expect just a tick over 2 MOA out of this ammo or about 1/2 MOA worse than XM193. As for velocity, it was around 3025, or well below XM193. A little weak for 55gr bullet. About the same we see from Wolf and perhaps a tick less than Barnaul. The SAPSAN was a little dirty when compared to XM193, but nothing I can't handle. About the same as other Russian brands. I would rate this as good plinking ammo. Way better than Wolf and about the same as Barnaul, not even close to XM193. At under 9 cents per shot at my front door, you can't beat the value. Kill cans with the Sapsan and buy XM193 for and defense needs. Cheers, DD
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:40:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bradcdavis00: I emailed sportsmanguide.com and they verified the bullets are copper cladded. "Hello, Thank you for your e-mail. I have spoke to a product specialist regarding item number WX2-78128 this ammo has a copper bullet. Any further questions please feel free to contact us again. Thanks for shopping The Guide. Enjoy The Outdoors, Marilyn Rock "
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I pulled a bullet last night. I am 100% sure the bullet jacket is steel with a copper layer over the top. I prefer the Russian bimetal bullet construction when compared to the thick copper jacket used by Wolf. It makes for a more dense bullet and should group better.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 2:03:56 PM EDT
DavidDetroit: thanks for the tip and the coupon. Ordered 2K rounds and bought the membership. The coupon, a discount and free shipping paid for the membership. I'll let you know how the ammo works out of my 16" Bushmaster carbine. Russ
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 12:34:42 PM EDT
Hello Everyone, Sapsan ammo review: While loading the ammo, I noticed some of the rounds were COVERED completely in red sealant... and I mean from top to bottom, AND you could see where there was dripping in the sealant as it dried on the case. Weapon used was a 16" bushmaster, bare muzzle, only mod to the weapon was a D-fender extractor enhancer. I started plinking away. I didn't do any groups on paper, just shooting at cans, 12gauge hulls and the occasional gallon jug. Accuracy was GREAT for plinking, was able to hit the hulls regularly. I did see a LOT more muzzle flash than the wolf I usually shoot. The weapon was getting really warm (I wear gloves while shooting so the heat doesn't bother me), but still everything was fine. I bump fired a few mags... no problems. I loaded my 14th 30 rounder, fired 3 shots, then walked to the other side of my field (I have my own personal range). THEN it happened, on my 4th round of my 14th mag, I got a stuck case. This ended the shooting session. Right now the upper is in the fridge, cooling down, before I go to work on it with a hammer and cleaning rod. All in all, for 9 cents a round I am happy with this for plinking ammo. BUT I just can't stand stuck cases. Stainless
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 6:29:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stainless: Hello Everyone, Sapsan ammo review: While loading the ammo, I noticed some of the rounds were COVERED completely in red sealant... and I mean from top to bottom, AND you could see where there was dripping in the sealant as it dried on the case. Weapon used was a 16" bushmaster, bare muzzle, only mod to the weapon was a D-fender extractor enhancer. I started plinking away. I didn't do any groups on paper, just shooting at cans, 12gauge hulls and the occasional gallon jug. Accuracy was GREAT for plinking, was able to hit the hulls regularly. I did see a LOT more muzzle flash than the wolf I usually shoot. The weapon was getting really warm (I wear gloves while shooting so the heat doesn't bother me), but still everything was fine. I bump fired a few mags... no problems. I loaded my 14th 30 rounder, fired 3 shots, then walked to the other side of my field (I have my own personal range). THEN it happened, on my 4th round of my 14th mag, I got a stuck case. This ended the shooting session. Right now the upper is in the fridge, cooling down, before I go to work on it with a hammer and cleaning rod. All in all, for 9 cents a round I am happy with this for plinking ammo. BUT I just can't stand stuck cases. Stainless
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The red sealer got you. I wish they would leave that crap off. Since none of us would ever use this ammo for defense needs, it just causes problems with no upside. Even Wolf get rid of it. Clean your chamber a little more often and your chances of extraction problems will go way down. I find that runnning a patch with some Hoppes around the chamber while at the range keeps everything working just fine. Perhaps clean the chamber once per five mags or so would be my best guess. Seems to have worked for me, whatever that is worth.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 7:26:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 7:27:09 AM EDT by bradcdavis00]
I tried the Sapsan ammo last night in my 20” Bushmaster at 100 yds. My best 3 shot pattern was 2.1“ in a hot barrel. Then I went back to the Winchester 55gr FMJ loading and was able to group a 0.85” with the same hot barrel. 2 moa is not too bad for 9 cents a round. I still have another 900 rnds to get the group smaller! I fired 100 rounds in about an hour with no problems. Brad [sniper2]
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 4:26:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bradcdavis00: I tried the Sapsan ammo last night in my 20” Bushmaster at 100 yds. My best 3 shot pattern was 2.1“ in a hot barrel. Then I went back to the Winchester 55gr FMJ loading and was able to group a 0.85” with the same hot barrel. 2 moa is not too bad for 9 cents a round. I still have another 900 rnds to get the group smaller! I fired 100 rounds in about an hour with no problems. Brad [sniper2]
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I would guess that your experience with the ammo was about like mine. It's no XM193, but it's 9 cents per shot at my front door. Good enough for plinking. A tick over 2 MOA seems to be about the best I could do with a very good AR.
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