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Posted: 10/8/2003 4:15:23 PM EDT
...for my new Colt M-4 6400c?
Thanks
Tortfeasor
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 4:41:27 PM EDT
They're the same caliber.I think Colt only marks them 5.56 though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:01:50 PM EDT
I thought they were the same too, but after reading all the posts on this forum, and after reading www.ammo-oracle.com I learned otherwise. Now just wondering if I am stuck with .223 on my new Colt. Apparrently, one of the selling points of Bushmaster, RRA, others is the 5.56 chamber. I think RRA calls theirs "Wylde" and claims it is capable of 2.23 as well as 5.56. So, just wondering if my Colt is hamstrung with 2.23. It has 1/7 twist, like mil spec, though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:29:12 PM EDT
From what I read on the Armalite website, the 5.56 and .223 are slightly different. This difference is in the chamber I believe. I read a caution that if one tried to fire 5.56 in a rifle that was marked/made only for .223 it could have ill affects. Jack
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 11:49:44 PM EDT
Colt's use 5.56, the Wylde chamber is a match grade .223. The dimensional differences between the 5.56 and .223 are numerous. You can pull up the dimensions [url=http://www.clymertool.com/cgi-bin/reamer.cgi?cmd=CMD_START&gunID=2&reamerID=7]here[/url]. In short, the 5.56 is longer, larger, and has a longer, shallower throat than the .223
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 12:34:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 12:35:21 AM EDT by pulpsmack]
I assume you already know the chamering business since you read the FAQ, & your question pertains strictly to ammunition reccomendations. In that case I would advise you to consider the purpose of the weapon/ammo. For plinking: the cheapest quality ammo around. For match: hell if you're a match shooter you probably know about accurate ammo than I do (but a top quality match grade/hand-loaded .223 is my advice) For defense: I would take 5.56 NATO above all. It was intended to take human targets. HTH
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 4:31:47 AM EDT
I don't know about your Colt, but my DPMS claims to be able to shoot both safley.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:47:50 AM EDT
Sorry, I misunderstood your first question.You should have no problems shooting .223 out of your Colt.My AR's have always had 5.56 chambers and I've occasionally put .223 through it.I think shooting 556 ammo in 223 chambers is where the problems arise.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:15:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tweak: Colt's use 5.56, the Wylde chamber is a match grade .223.
View Quote
Actually, the Wylde Chamber is a compromise between .223 Rem tight chambers and 5.56mm reliable chambers. Wylde chambers tend to be a little easier to feed than .223's, but more accurate than the looser 5.56 chambers. I don't know what the measurements are for the Wylde chamber, but maybe one of the above links contains it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 2:20:19 PM EDT
I'm relatively new to the AR-15 world, so I'm still trying to understand all the details... Can I use 5.56mm NATO rounds in a rifle that is advertized/sold as a .223 rifle? I looked at the info an the site posted above, and I would say NO, because the two rounds are differend sizes. But the difference is sizes is very small - thousandths of an inch - does this matter or not? Also, I've read (somewhere on this site, I don't remember where though) that the 5.56mm NATO rounds generated sufficiently greater pressures than the .223 round and can have severe consequenses (blowing up the rifle). I've called a few shops and they insist that the rounds are exactly the same. I've asked if Knight's SR-15 can shoot the 5.56mm NATO and have been told yes, but the rifle is advertised/sold as a .223. Does anyone know what the real deal is?
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 3:37:58 PM EDT
5.56 chamber= safe to shoot 5.56NATO(obviously) and .223 .223Wylde chamber= "" .223Rem chamber= SAFE TO FIRE .223REM ONLY this is what I've gathered from this sight.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 3:53:28 PM EDT
Thanks for the help!
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:11:51 PM EDT
HMMM...seems like everyone's questions have all been answered but my original one! ok...maybe I didn't ask my question right... Will my new Colt M-4, 6400 C, civilian version,with 1/7 twist barrell, shoot 5.56? That's all I want to know..anyone have any idea? Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 11:24:20 PM EDT
Tortfeasor, Your Colt will shoot 5.56 and .223 fine. Torf, My bad, looked up the info after posting, Feamster has it in "Black Magic". The Wylde chamber is a 5.56 with a freebore of .224 and a leade angle 1 degree 13 minutes. Opposed to .227" and 2 degrees 30 minutes for the 5.56 and .2245" and 3 degrees 10 minutes for the .223. According to Feamster, Wylde used the 5.56 as a baseline because he expected military match ammo would soon be available and 5.56 would be the chamber the military used. Still [url=http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm]more[/url] chamber dimensions. I think the whole mix and match question is overblown except in extreme cases. Perhaps a tight match chamber shooting sloppy military (non USGI) ammo. In most cases excess HS soaks up any "tight" fit between the ogive and the lands.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 11:30:37 PM EDT
Take off the handguards and see what is stamped on the barrel. I do not own any Colt's, but my Bushy's say 5.56. v/r, Cruzado
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 12:29:11 PM EDT
Tortfeaser, read your barrel. I have a colt and mine says c mp 5.56 nato 1/7. I would imagine your's says something similar. On mine it's on the end of the barrel, I don't have to take the handguards off, but I have an a2. 20 incher. If it's stamped .223 remington, I wouldn't shoot 5.56 in it. Not only is the chamber different but it's loaded to higher velocity which also means more pressure. In my research they say you shouldn't. look at www.ammo-oracle.com. It'll answer alot of question's and look at the barrel. don't worry about what the manual says. They're generic.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 2:28:35 PM EDT
If it's unsafe to fire 5.56mm in a ".223 rifle" show me the damaged weapons; same for 9mm NATO in a 9mm Parabellum pistol. I'm not talking about one isolated, poorly documented case, there must be thousands if there's a problem. Unless this is a special purpose match rifle shoot whatever ".223" you want. At worst you'll have extraction problems from a too tight chamter. Good olde South African military surplus ".223 Reimington" is sold by the pallet, and no one has ever documented a problem with it. It's advertised, sold, and marked ".223". Ummm, the SA military uses 5.56mm weapons and, golly, if I peel off the .223 Remington stickers on the case and boxes it all says 5.56mm underneath. Anyone think the sticker makes it different? All magically converted by folks in sheltered workshops who think there's a difference. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 2:59:21 PM EDT
I'm sorry chuck, I'm not going by experience, I'm just going by what I've read. I think the big difference with 9mm nato is it's just loaded alot hotter than regular remington and all that. I wish I could reference where I read it but the military every once in awhile will have a beretta receiver crack. But I'm sure it's after thousands and thousands of rounds and probably some abuse. If you've fired 5.56 in .223 with no problems that's not a problem with me. I shoot +p ammo in my taurus even though the manual does not say it's ok. I think I'll have to try +p+ sometime. My taurus really liked the remington 115 +p's. Regardless, I don't think tortfeaser is going to have a problem with his ar because in my understanding, colt's have a 5.56 chamber. out.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 5:27:25 AM EDT
The joke is there's no such thing as a "5.56mm chamber" so you or I or anyone else can't have one. The M16A2 Rifle has a chamber spec as does the M249 SAW. Both fire 5.56mm NATO. Both chambers are designed for safe, reliable operation. Both chamber specs are [i]different[/i] and both are larger than the SAAMI [i]recommended[/i] spec for ".223 Remington" bolt guns. I've noted the exotic process used to convert [i]unsafe[/i] to fire in a .223 labeled rifle military surplus 5.56mm ammunition into [i]safe[/i] to fire ammo. The process consists of slapping .223 stickers over 5.56mm markings. Finally don't forget the [i]politics[/i]. 5.56mm is an evil, military cartridge which should only be allowed in the military -- assuming we allow them to have weapons. .223 is a good, sporting cartridge. Colt's and some others stopped marking their rifles 5.56mm for [i]political[/i] reasons only, but made no changes to the rifles themselves. Heck, Colt's dropped "AR15" from many models for the same [i]political[/i] reasons. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:10:00 AM EDT
CHUCK, So you're saying the saw and the a2 have different chambers than each other? or you mean they're different than .223. I do know this, I've got brass that I saved from black hills and then from all the other manufactures I've shot. Black hills uses nato brass. Obviously commercial ones don't. If you put the two side by side the nato stamped brass is clearly longer than any of the saami .223 stuff I've shot. That being remington, winchester, pmc, umc, hornady and I think that's it. So, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but It's not all adding up. But people obviosly shoot the black hills in bolt guns so it must fit but at the same time the black hills is loaded to saami pressures. So you're dealing with 2 entities, chamber and pressure. Now you said that the saw and the a2 have diferent chambers altogether but if they're bigger wouldn't they be considered 5.56 chambers? So, I'm not sure where the joke is I'm just trying to figure it out and what you're saying is a lot different than what alot of other people said. If you go to the winchester ammo sight, you can access the ranger ammunition sight which is the law enforcement ammo. It also states there that the chambers are different. You may be right but I'm just going by what some of the "experts" are saying. jj out
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:51:50 PM EDT
OK...took the handguards off, barrell is not stamped at all...what gives? It is a new 6400c by Colt...Any ideas now? Thanks...... Tortfeasor
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:55:20 PM EDT
By the way, I have no special knowledge on cartridges, and in fact have very little knowledge and freely admit same, (hence the reason for my original question) but if you doubt .223 and 5.56 are different, see for yourself at http://www.clymertool.com/cgi-bin/reamer.cgi Now, back to my original question, am I gonna blow my new .223 Colt 6400 C with the first xm193?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:31:05 PM EDT
Tortfeasor, Your rifle will be fine shooting either or. Is that twice now I've said that? Almost any AR15 will be fine shooting either or. The only trouble comes with shooting milsurp in tight short match chambers that use a short freebore and a steep leade. Most ARs have enough HS that the bullet never gets close to the rifling no matter what type of throat is in it. Milsurp is hot to begin with, if you crank down on the bullet before launch the chamber pressure goes up higher. Short of that sitch I don't see any problem shooting 5.56 in .233 or vice versa. FWIW, the M249 and the M16 series use the same 5.56 chamber design it's only the HS specs that vary between the designs
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:05:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tortfeasor: OK...took the handguards off, barrell is not stamped at all...what gives?
View Quote
Colt doesn't stamp the caliber and twist under the handguards why would you look there? The stamping is forward of the FSB at 12 o clock on the barrel. It should read [b]C MP 5.56 NATO 1X7[/b] or 1X9 depending. The stamping should look something like what is pictured below. The yellow arrow is pointing to the rear of the annular groove in the barrel for the forward bracket of the M203 GL. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=12467&iGalleryUnq=934&iImageUnq=18851[/img]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:11:05 PM EDT
Now, back to my original question, am I gonna blow my new .223 Colt 6400 C with the first xm193?
View Quote
I own a Colt 6400c and shoot nothing but Federal xm193. Like Tweak and others already said, [b]look[/b] at the top of your barrel just behind the muzzle brake. Your Colt 6400c will say C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7... ...Just like mine does [:)]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:20:19 PM EDT
OK...took the handguards off, barrell is not stamped at all...what gives?
View Quote
[b]DIAGRAM:[/b] [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Dscn0036_copy.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:38:38 PM EDT
CJan_NH, Is your 6400 stamped UNDER the barrel? BTW, Nice artwork, looks like mine. Someone simply HAS to teach us how to add pretty graphics to pix. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:46:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 10:50:59 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
Originally Posted By Tweak: CJan_NH, Is your 6400 stamped UNDER the barrel? BTW, Nice artwork, looks like mine. Someone simply HAS to teach us how to add pretty graphics to pix. [:D]
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No, mine is at 12:00 between the brake and the M203 notch thingie... ...as the [b]next[/b] diagram clearly illustrates... [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Dscn0037.jpg[/img] [b]MY DOCTOR WARNED ME ABOUT MIXING PERCOCET WITH BEER!! WOOHOO!!![/B]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:29:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 3:47:14 AM EDT by Tweak]
OK, courtesy of ProfGAB's hosting, [url=http://www.specialservicesmfg.com/include/Reamer_Dimensions.doc]here[/url] are the reamer dims. I finally got the .doc together but was too lazy to reletter the items. You guys can compare the dimensions and decide if they matter. FWIW, the 5.56 is simply a different chambering in the calibre. I never have figured out what the controversy is. Nice pic, CJan_NH, I don't think you're too bad a guy either. [:D] [bored kode]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:17:52 AM EDT
Thanks Tweak [:D]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 9:46:14 AM EDT
You spilled somthing on your mouse pad there CJan...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:51:36 PM EDT
OK, I am a little embarassed...the 5.56 was stamped right there where you guys said. In my defense, I will say the stamp is extremely light and I had to look twice. Wow, think of all the internet bandwidth I wasted...sorry... I owe you guys one! Thanks... Tortfeasor
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:39:56 PM EDT
If it makes you feel any better, I own three Colts and I was [b]PISSED[/b] when I first brought my 6400c home because I didn't see the barrel stamp either. My first thought was "WTF? Colt doesn't magnaflux their friggin' barrels anymore?" I hope you enjoy your new rig as much as I'm enjoying mine [:)]
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