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Posted: 11/1/2010 3:56:36 PM EDT
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About 6 years ago I built an AR 22 for my son to learn to shoot. I finished it in time for a 200 yard match and it performed great! I used a RR Match lower because I had one, RR uppper purchased and a Compass Lake barrel. I had the barrel made with a .223 chamber but a standard 16:1 barrel. I did this so I could use the M267? adapter.
Compass lake said they'd cut the adaptor but I didn't want to do that for two reasons. 1. I paid too much for it and 2. I wanted to use it in other guns. Now that both my boys are a bit older and shooting ARs, Match .22s and other rifles, I want to tweak this one. I took it to the range on Saturday and sighted it in at 50 feet so I can compete in the locak .22 matches. I did well and had some decent groups with the standard sights but I want to do better. I've found the Lyman front sight, 93MJT but I'd like to know how it fits onto a SS Match AR barrel. I'm planning on changing the rear sight to the RR 1/4x1/4 hooded NM sight. I'm looking for any advise or recomendations out there. |
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How does it group and with what ammo?
If you decide to switch to a regular dedicated barrel, I would possibly be interested in yours, though I was planning an 18" barrel. CLE makes the connecting link to adapt your M-261 bolt to their normal dedicated barrels. The switch involve pressing out the roll pin connecting your chamber adapter to the side rail. I cant help with your original question, though. After reviewing Brownell's website, I THINK it should fit the Lipski AR riser base made for the various barrel contours. It's clearly some kind of dovetail. http://www.brownells.com/1/3/redfield-front-sight-base |
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It groups better than I thought it would and I'm going to shoot a Father/Son Match in 3 weeks with it. I used Winchester Super-X 22 X22LR1 Ammo and I've included a pic of the group at 50'. I used the NRA 50ft Sm Bore Rifle Targets. The last time I shot it was at 100 yards and we normally shoot it at 200 yards.
Currently I'm not looking to part with is however with both my boys taking up multiple shooting sports I may end up selling a few to get new rifles for them. Grand Prairie, TX http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a143/c_r_guy/AR22Group.jpg |
| I have a barreled upper from Kurt Kustom Firearms which uses a chamber adapter with a 1 in 16 twist barrel. This is a field grade barrel but is still pretty accurate. It might surprise you how well your barrel shoots even using the M 261 conversion bolt and chamber insert. I noticed my Ciener conversion bolt shot a little better than the Colt conversion bolt in my KKF upper. Its possible a Spikes conversion kit with the O rings on the chamber insert might actually improve the accuracy of your upper. I think it would be a slight difference and the only way I'd ever tell the difference is by using a good scope off a rest. Frog5215 was going to do a test with a rifled Air Force barrel insert/conversion compared to other conversion inserts to see if there was any significant improvement in accuracy. It would be interesting to test a barrel with conversion barrel insert against an identical barrel with machined chamber. It might be surprising how close the chamber insert accuracy would come to the machined chamber, maybe little to none on field grade barrels, maybe a significant amount on CLE match barrels??? |
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Vascar, by PM, I've tried to convince the OP of the superiority on a "normal" dedicated barrel (so he'll sell me his .223 chambered one cheap), but he won't bite.
As money permits, I'll ask Frank White to do another SPR Douglas, but with the .223 chamber. I have 3 generations of Atchisson, an M-261, and an Air Force, and lack only a Colt/DPMS . Interestingly, only the Atchissons have a neck. The AF has a rifled chamber insert. I'll test against my dedicated CLE SPR. I hadn't thought about the Spike's "o" rings, so I guess I might need one of their chamber inserts to go on the bolt from my ST-22. |
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Quoted:
These are at 50ft and from a bench using sandbags. Thankyou. A test of the rifle as I suspected. Is this size of group a generally accepted norm for a .223" using a .22 rimfire bolt conversion ? It would be interesting to see what the groups do @ 50 yds ! Off the bench @ 25 yds with irons, my dedicated upper is a ragged single hole overall about 3/8" Can any of the .22" rimfire bolt / chamber conversion kits match a dedicated .22" rimfire chambered upper or is this the compromise you live with to shoot more economically ? Cheers Darren |
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Look at SpecOps' sticky.
He tested lots of conversions @ 25yd initially. Also, I believe his bench technique became more rigorous later and was a little less formal in the early testing. Older rifles (1:12"twist) are felt to give better results than newer 1:8" and 1:7" barrels, which give plinker grade results. Bear in mind that the OP's barrel ISN'T a .223 barrel (.224" groove and centerfire twist), but a match grade 1:16" .22 barrel (.222" groove) with a .223 chamber, like Vascar's KKF upper. |
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Quoted:
Vascar, by PM, I've tried to convince the OP of the superiority on a "normal" dedicated barrel (so he'll sell me his .223 chambered one cheap), but he won't bite. As money permits, I'll ask Frank White to do another SPR Douglas, but with the .223 chamber. I have 3 generations of Atchisson, an M-261, and an Air Force, and lack only a Colt/DPMS . Interestingly, only the Atchissons have a neck. The AF has a rifled chamber insert. I'll test against my dedicated CLE SPR. I hadn't thought about the Spike's "o" rings, so I guess I might need one of their chamber inserts to go on the bolt from my ST-22. I didn't noticed any difference in my Colt AR 15 1 in 9 twist 223 Remington barrel between using a Ciener conversion with a neck on the chamber insert of the Colt conversion with no neck. I did notice the Ciener conversion was more accurate and had less fliers than my Colt conversion in the KKF upper. I never measured the chamber on the KKF barrel but I suspected the neck on the Ciener chamber insert got the bullet a lot closer to the lands and grooves in the barrel. I also noticed the longer Ciener chamber insert had less residue on the outside of the chamber insert compared to the Colt conversion insert. On field grade guns either conversion provided adequate accuracy but when shooting off the bench for small groups the longer neck seemed to be slightly more accurate and consistent. It was also apparent the Ciener fit the chamber of the KKF barrel (less play) better than the Colt and I never new for sure if the neck was why the Ciener was more accurate or if the tighter alignment also contributed to the improved accuracy. I tried to put my brothers Spikes conversion in my KKF upper but it wouldn't fit without a little modification of the rails since the Spikes would not completely seat in the KKF upper. The Spikes was near 100% reliable in my Brother's High Standard 16" AR so I didn't want to trim it to make it fit my upper. |
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I code the M261 because I need to single load for the matches we shoot. This adaptor is the only one that will lock open on an empty chamber.
My neighbor purchased the same barrel from CLE but he has the 22 chamber and the modified M261. However he has a mix master of parts under it. I take it out and do a side by side just to see if there is a difference. I had forgot he had it until now. It sucks getting old. I'm going to shoot it in a team match with my son, 10YO, in two weeks. He has a Savage from the CMP and on the same day I'll shoot it with # 2 son, 15 YO and he's using a Kimber from the CMP. I think I'll get out shot by at least one, maybe both. I'll post the scores afterwards. |
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Quoted:
Vascar, by PM, I've tried to convince the OP of the superiority on a "normal" dedicated barrel (so he'll sell me his .223 chambered one cheap), but he won't bite. As money permits, I'll ask Frank White to do another SPR Douglas, but with the .223 chamber. I have 3 generations of Atchisson, an M-261, and an Air Force, and lack only a Colt/DPMS . Interestingly, only the Atchissons have a neck. The AF has a rifled chamber insert. I'll test against my dedicated CLE SPR. I hadn't thought about the Spike's "o" rings, so I guess I might need one of their chamber inserts to go on the bolt from my ST-22. . Save your $ and do a cheap acurracy test with tape 
I made my first Oring ciener 223 adapter over 10 years ago after using some scotch tape to take up some of the slop and to help seal around the 223 adapter to increase the blowback power. The scotch tape will last about 2-300 rnds and it will help with acurracy and blowback power when shooting lower power ammo like subsonic and standard velocity. One wrap of tape end to end not overlap at two places will make the 223 adapter a snug fit in most chambers. 
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Redtazdog has been at this for a long time. I value his advise as he's one of the most knowledgeable
people when it comes to 22 conversions and dedicated uppers. I tried Heat Shrink at one time in place of the scotch tape. You have to get it just right as far as material type, thickness and length but it will hold up longer than the tape. Tape will give you quick answers and may be all that you need.. Tape's Cheap. 
Good Luck, Spec /Dave |
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Well it's the day after and I shot like Poo but the rifle has potential. As a father son team x2 we came in 3rd and 5th out of 7. I shot once and they used that for both boys. I would have liked to shot twice since it took me two positions to get me head wraped around the gun.
In prone I shot a 79 -1X. I started out with the plan of shooting sighters for 5 min and then shoot the 10 record shots. My sighters were all low 2 clicks and grouping looser than last time. Most likely because of the sling vs sand bags. I was also trying to shoot with my new prescript glasses which I discarded by the time I got to sitting. I dbl fired on target #2 so I lost a point there but all the rest were all over the place. When I had 4 shots left I had to rush since I was down to only a minute thirty left. Remember, this is single load so I shot as fast as I could and scored an 8,9,9,6. Offhand was next and I was just as shaky with a score of 68-1X. Not much to say here except my two sighters were two nines and I blew the rest. By the time I got to sitting I had my time management down and I scrapped the reading glasses and left the front sight a little fuzzy. I shot a 91-3X and felt like I redeemed myself somewhat. To of the other fathers are active military and one was a former NCAA Smallbore Champion and he was using his tricked out Anzchutes (sp) rifle. The other was using a US military surplus Kimber. Finally kneeling. I've been shooting competitively since 2000 and I've never shot kneeling before. My oldest who's in JROTC had to show me how. Again I did well with an 88-3X and I was able to call each shot as they broke. Over all I shot a 326-7X and I feel like there is a chance I can be reasonably competitive even against the Ringer dad once I swap out the standard military sights for match sights. I need to work on the adaptor seal, I'll try the tape because I could feel the blowback on my cheek. The big reason to get back out there is to redeem myself since my 15 year old out shot me with a 327-8X. He was smiling from ear to ear when they posted the scores. He also shoots a surplus Kimber. The 10 year old shot a 242-1X. The scores for the boys are personal best for both of them and I'm very proud of them. We did take home 1 trophy though. The oldest took first place in the Sharpshooter Division. Look out dads, I'll be back for January's match. |
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Very Cool Story. I taught my wife and sons to shoot, now they all
out shoot me. I keep refining the equipment, optics and ammo to catch them. I even had glasses made and can now see 20/15. Every little bit helps and if I could just go to the range and beat them it wouldn't be near the fun.... Congrats to your son for the Trophy.... Priceless..... Dave |
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Thank you for the comments. I'm a very lucky dad to have both boys interested in shooting. My youngest is practicing so he can participate in the US Army Marksmanship Units Small Arms Firing School in August 2011. I wasn't expecting him to excel so quickly and now I'm in need of a .223 A2 20" Upper so he can practice with his brother on a regular basis. If anyone has one "cheap" let me know.
We shoot in the Haltom City Rifle and Pistol Club's Juniors Program. They offer a FREE program to all Junior Shooters. They provide the Rifles, ammo, targets and instruction every Sunday from 2-4pm. They do the NRA Winchester Program and my boys love it. They shoot the 4 position NRA smallbore coarse of fire using the Savage and Kimber .22 rifles purchased from the CMP. They shoot year round and also have a complete Air Rifle Program and shoot those indoors. If you live anywhere near the DFW area, you need to come and participate in one of the many events they have there. |
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