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Posted: 6/10/2009 10:40:21 PM EDT
i need your help.i have a sbr 9mm. RRA upper with 6 inch barrel, ramped bolt from spike's tactical and a DPMS M16 lower parts kit, RRA mag adapter and Colt factory 9mm mags. i have ignition problems (every 32 round mag 3 -10 times) in semi and full auto. when the round didn't ignite there is a very small mark on the primer. it seems that the firig pin will not go as far as it should for every round. somebody know this problem and can help me?
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i bought it last august-september. exactly the hole upper is from spike's incl. the colt mags. i was until this april not able to finish the project. since 4 weeks it is done and since two weeks i shoot it. first i thought that it happens because of the dirt ( i use it with silencer) but it happend also w/o silencer and freshly cleaned. firing pin is not broken and firing pin spring is also ok. absolutely no idea why it doesn't work fine.
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nope. i tried 147gr subsonic, same brand 115gr, other brand 123gr and 115gr. with every brand irregular failures
i can change the hammer spring, but it is a new (normal shape) DPMS M16 kit spring. i use the same in the 7.5" .223 Rem., 6.5" .300 Whisper. No problem at all. |
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Any chance you can post a pic of the bolt face with the FP at its full .035-040" protrusion and maybe a pic of some of the light primer strikes on the rounds themselves?
The firing process with a simple blowback gun is pretty straightforward to troubleshoot. Rounds need to chamber properly/fully and then hammer needs to hit FP properly and with enough force to strike primer in the center (or reasonably close to center) to set off primer. |
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i will take some pics, next time i go to the shooting range. but the fp hits the primers absolutely in the center and the fired rounds (these with ignition) have a fine and deep impact hole in the primer. the rounds without ignition have a "just hit" marks an the primer. for me it looks like the fp does not every time goes foreward completly.
tom, what do you guess. why you asked me about the purchase date? |
| Sounds like your headspace is off. Since your firing pin protrusion is correct, I'd guess your chamber is cut a bit deep. Most of the time, the case rim is making it past the extractor and held there and gets a proper strike. But if you get a short case, it's not seating fully and the rim is hanging on the edge of the extractor and then the firing pin can't reach. |
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...possible. i fear that. how i can control without headspace gage? and, when the headspace is too much, how can i fix it? A lathe and a depth mic is all you need. You get that case head flat to the bolt face, that fire pin will smack the primer every time... mine only has .021" of fire pin showing, been running fine since 2003. 
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...possible. i fear that. how i can control without headspace gage? and, when the headspace is too much, how can i fix it? measure headspace - you can do it simply with GO/NO GO gauges to find out if your within spec - or you can use a caliper with a depth bar to measure from the face of the barrel into the chamber lip and then from the face of the bolt into the recess where it holds the case, and then add those two measurements together. I think you need to post up some pics to help narrow things down. Everything up to now is mostly just guesses. If you want more guesses - I would think that if you are getting solid FP strikes most of the time and light strikes some times, it is more likely ammo related (large variance in case length or variance in primer cup hardness), or possibly something causing the FP to bind up. You could also slip a round into the bolt face and see how tightly the extractor is holding it to the bolt face or allows some movement. |
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens.
guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. |
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. Something just doesn't seem right to me. Can you post up a pick like the second one in SBR's post to show us the .035" gap between the bolt face and the round? Pics of your bolt and ammo too? Can you post up your actual measurements also? Depth of bolt face recess, depth of chamber in barrel, OAL of the brass case on your rounds (several different ones or a min-max of the group), your actual FP protrusion (it should be a specific number, not a range). |
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. You don't need no new barrel.... measure case protrusion from end of barrel using the shortest case you have (sized or new), typically .745",,,, and subtract from .130".... the end number will be your "how much" we is going to face off the end of the barrrel, and how much we going to face off the flange to set barrel back in upper accordingly. Somebody with lathe experience should be able to correct in no more than 20-25 minute, majority will be set-up time. |
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. You don't need no new barrel.... measure case protrusion from end of barrel using the shortest case you have (sized or new), typically .745",,,, and subtract from .130".... the end number will be your "how much" we is going to face off the end of the barrrel, and how much we going to face off the flange to set barrel back in upper accordingly. Somebody with lathe experience should be able to correct in no more than 20-25 minute, majority will be set-up time. Does that facing on the flange require removing the index pin? Oh, and "bonus points" for your "subtle admission" that you knew what was wrong. 
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. You don't need no new barrel.... measure case protrusion from end of barrel using the shortest case you have (sized or new), typically .745",,,, and subtract from .130".... the end number will be your "how much" we is going to face off the end of the barrrel, and how much we going to face off the flange to set barrel back in upper accordingly. Somebody with lathe experience should be able to correct in no more than 20-25 minute, majority will be set-up time. Does that facing on the flange require removing the index pin? You are correct, kinda hard to spin in lathe and cut that face with tool, and having the pin there in the way.... Mine is a 1/8" roll pin on that barrel seen in the pic, though it has since been lathed down to fit my M11-9 SMG... I guess I am getting forgetfull in my old age 
Oh, and "bonus points" for your "subtle admission" that you knew what was wrong. Hmm, is that good or bad ?? 
Good evening
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ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. You don't need no new barrel.... measure case protrusion from end of barrel using the shortest case you have (sized or new), typically .745",,,, and subtract from .130".... the end number will be your "how much" we is going to face off the end of the barrrel, and how much we going to face off the flange to set barrel back in upper accordingly. Somebody with lathe experience should be able to correct in no more than 20-25 minute, majority will be set-up time. Does that facing on the flange require removing the index pin? Oh, and "bonus points" for your "subtle admission" that you knew what was wrong. Bad advice - no bonus points for either of you. Ever wonder why Spike, CCMG, RRA, Colt, or any other manufacturer don't offer their barrels with short cut chambers like this from the get go? |
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Bad advice - no bonus points for either of you. Ever wonder why Spike, CCMG, RRA, Colt, or any other manufacturer don't offer their barrels with short cut chambers like this from the get go? Yea, nobody has thier own reamer or abilty to finish the chamber.. Where is my barrel "short chambered" ? My chamber is cut with a reamer from Brownells to depth that allows the everyday off the shelf ammo to sit on its' mouth in the chamber on the shelf that the forementioned reamer cuts (no mods by me), and only deep enough to allow the bolt face to sit firmly on the case head as seen in the pic., my 6yr old Garrison bolt with .021" fire pin dent gets 100% of the .021" into the primer cup, not going to happen with a .747 case in a .755 long chamber. Now, if there is a gap between the case head and the breech face where the case head sits, then the headspace is TOO LONG, as the fella with the problem describes he is seeing. Do that on an open bolt, and you is not going to mash the primer. Another side effect of the chamber being too long as supplied by the makers is if the case is not supported on both ends... the case head does not get snapped under the extractor fully.. poor extraction-ejection, besides the need to adjust the eject finger to fit the stacked tolerances of lower and upper for being on center with each other. I cringe everytime a post pops up with extract, eject, wont fire problems. 
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So after you face off the barrel, what depth are you "re-cutting" your overall chamber to? SAAMI spec of .754" or something shorter?
My experience has shown factory case lengths can vary be as much as .010-.015" shorter than the .754" max spec. If you cut your chamber .010-.015" shorter to accommodate the shortest cases, what happens when you get a piece of brass that is only.005" short? Bolt doesn't close all the way, does it? This is why there are specs and tolerances. Part of those specs and tolerances are having sufficient firing pin protrusion. Quite frankly, .020" is not enough and .035-.040" isn't all that much either. My 9mm Glocks have about .070" of max striker protrusion and my 9mm 1911's have a theoretical max of nearly a quarter of an inch. Neither uses that much, but they do have it. They all run chambers that close on a GO gauge (which is .754") and have no problem popping off the primers on brass that is .020-025" shorter than max spec. I understand the logic behind what you are doing, but don't think it is the way to fix the issue. If someone had a car that had three wheels that were 17" diameter and one that was 16" diameter, would you recommend that person replace the 16" wheel with a 17" one or machine all three of their 17" wheels down to 16" so they match the one oddball 16" wheel on it? It's kind of a silly question, but I hope it gets the point across. If you have a 9mm chamber cut to the proper SAAMI spec and firing pin protrusion of at least .035-.040", there should be no problem using brass that is a few thousandths shorter, or even up to .020-025" shorter, than max spec of .754". I realize there are some out there in search of the ultimate accuracy and believe having chambers exactly the same size as their case length is the way to achieve it, but they also follow a strict reloading regimen and trim all of their brass specifically to their chamber length. They would never cut a 9mm chamber to say .740 and then run mixed brass of varying lengths that could be up to .750 case length. While you may know what you are doing with your mod, it doesn't strike me as at all "typical" and I'm afraid many/most other people will have no clue and will end up damaging their gun or hurting themselves. Typically when people want a custom cut chamber, they order a rifled barrel "blank" and cut/ream the chamber themselves or, in the case of a 1911, they fit the barrel and then ream the chamber to length after it's installed. Typically, as I mentioned, short chambering is done in search of accuracy, not to correct a problem with inadequate firing pin protrusion. Sorry if it seems like I'm raining on your parade, but I'd rather see people troubleshoot their actual problem and fix that, instead of just doing a workaround. In the case of this thread, we don't even know what the real problem is, haven't gotten any measurements on his chamber or actual FP protrusion, and you're ready to send him off to modify his barrel. Again, sorry, but I can't offer any bonus points for the mod or your pic of your chamber reamer. |
| His chamber (barrel/bolt) is beyond .754. I had a factory barrel (not Rock River) that did the exact same thing and guess what, the chamber was cut too long, OAL actually .776 (.022 off). My factory Colt bolt has a pin protrusion of .040 and that is spec for a 9mm AR-15 bolt. The factory was aware some barrels shipped out like that. The solution from the factory was to repair or replace. The repair involved facing the chamber and the flange. The factory chose to send a new barrel. It happens. |
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Where is my barrel "short chambered" ? My chamber is cut with a reamer from Brownells to depth that allows the everyday off the shelf ammo to sit on its' mouth in the chamber on the shelf that the forementioned reamer cuts (no mods by me), and only deep enough to allow the bolt face to sit firmly on the case head as seen in the pic., my 6yr old Garrison bolt with .021" fire pin dent gets 100% of the .021" into the primer cup, not going to happen with a .747 case in a .755 long chamber. You never did say what actual depth you cut your chamber to. Based on your bolded comments above, I am assuming you have cut it "short" as most factory brass is short of the .754" max case dimension. For the sake of argument, let's say you can get a piece of .747" brass to fit tight. If that is the case, then your chamber would have to be cut less than .754" (by extrapolation, I would call .747" "short" of .754"). Besides, how would one ensure that ALL everyday off the shelf ammo sits on its' mouth in the chamber when it is all of varying lengths? Would they cut the chamber to the shortest dimension (which could leave the bolt several thousandths of an inch from being fully in battery), or cut it to the longest dimension, which could still leave short brass a few thousandths off the bolt face anyway? Like I said - unless you are loading your own ammo and trimming every case to the exact length of the chamber you cut, there is no way to guarantee that every round will fit your chamber "perfectly". This is why there are SAAMI specs for chamber and case length and GO/NO GO gauges to check a gun for proper specs (i.e. safety). This is the way it works with every ammo, not just 9mm. I am going to say it again - get your bolt replaced so you have the proper .035-.040" of FP protrusion (not the .021" that you have) and you won't have to waste time and money facing your barrel, trimming back the flange, and then short chambering itl to get your gun to work with an out of spec bolt. Kudos to you for finding a "work around" for your specific problem, but I still say no bonus points for recommending it to others. The proper (and safest) fix is to confirm the chamber is cut correctly and have an in-spec bolt. As for the OP - until he provides some actual measurements, there is no way to say definitively what his problem is. We are just speculating that his chamber was grossly overcut beyond max spec. I don't think that is fair to Tom to just say that his barrel is bad without having any actual evidence to support the claim. |
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Brother Kevin, you is making something sooooo simple soooo drawn out. My chamber is cut deep enough to allow a .744" case (about the shortest I have seen) protrude .130" from the barrel face (remember the bolt face is only .125" deep) , the bolt face is 100% sitting flat on the case face and the case mouth sitting on its intended shelf in my barrel... I have yet see factory ammo that measures .754". If I have a barrel (which I have shown in my posted pics) that the case does not protrude a minimum of .125",,, I know for a fact the bolt face will not sandwich the case at both ends when the bolt is resting on the barrel.. I will face the barrel to provide the forementioned .125" (though I prefer.130" myself) , and cut the flange to set the barrel into receiver so the rear of bolt is flush with rear of upper as called out in TM for 5.56 carrier when closed. I do not trim 9mm, I only load them in batches based on headstamp. There is no voodoo or magic in my handloading, plain old LEE and RCBS dies, it is just the fact I have spent the time to tighten up the slop that the makers seem to think they can get away with. I have an Uzi that has the headspace set in similar fashion, along with my M11-9 SMG barrel thta was cut from blank and chambered and lights off everything I feed it... |
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The reason Spike's Tactical (badazz) asked right off about when you got the bolt was because the first batch had firing pin protrusion issues that caused exactly what you're seeing (soft strikes), althought it was on most of the rounds instead of only a few per mag. There was bascially a "recall" on the early CMMG ramped bolts for that issue.
They say they've fixed it in the new bolts, and the few "what the heck? I am getting misfires" posts went away. Are you SURE your firing pin is protruding far enough? Do you have another bolt to try it with to see if that's your problem. I'm not saying all teh headspace talk is off base - I would just try a known good bolt before I started cutting anything on a lathe. |
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The reason Spike's Tactical (badazz) asked right off about when you got the bolt was because the first batch had firing pin protrusion issues that caused exactly what you're seeing (soft strikes), althought it was on most of the rounds instead of only a few per mag. There was bascially a "recall" on the early CMMG ramped bolts for that issue. They say they've fixed it in the new bolts, and the few "what the heck? I am getting misfires" posts went away. Are you SURE your firing pin is protruding far enough? Do you have another bolt to try it with to see if that's your problem. I'm not saying all teh headspace talk is off base - I would just try a known good bolt before I started cutting anything on a lathe. And I will test anybodys suspect bolt, you marlk it so it is identifiable, send it to me, I'll video your bolt running in my rifle...
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sorry guys for the long time without no message. huge discussion about my problem.
first i have to say, that there is a misunderstanding. the barrel isn't from spike's. it is a sabre (european production). so, i am very sorry if i have somehow caused tom/spike's. it wasn't meant like this. only to say - the products and guys from spike's are unbeatable! good news. we (me and my gunsmith) have solved the problem. the chamber was about 0.035" too deep. so the firing pin wasn't able to reach the primer of some sort of ammo. so we milled the barrel end about .025" down and also the barrel flange. now the barrel ist set back in the receiver and it works fine (tested last night), even in full auto. not one light primer strike with every type of ammo. so, sbr7_11 was totally right and gave me the absolutely right instructions ––> many thanks. also thanks to all other guys for help. i will post some pics asap in this topic. it is copletely finished. a perfect integrally supressed 9mm 30" long.
thanks to all of you from switzelrand |
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Page 2 owned ––- Brother Kevin, you is making something sooooo simple soooo drawn out. My chamber is cut deep enough to allow a .744" case (about the shortest I have seen) protrude .130" from the barrel face (remember the bolt face is only .125" deep) , the bolt face is 100% sitting flat on the case face and the case mouth sitting on its intended shelf in my barrel... I have yet see factory ammo that measures .754". If I have a barrel (which I have shown in my posted pics) that the case does not protrude a minimum of .125",,, I know for a fact the bolt face will not sandwich the case at both ends when the bolt is resting on the barrel.. I will face the barrel to provide the forementioned .125" (though I prefer.130" myself) , and cut the flange to set the barrel into receiver so the rear of bolt is flush with rear of upper as called out in TM for 5.56 carrier when closed. I do not trim 9mm, I only load them in batches based on headstamp. There is no voodoo or magic in my handloading, plain old LEE and RCBS dies, it is just the fact I have spent the time to tighten up the slop that the makers seem to think they can get away with. I have an Uzi that has the headspace set in similar fashion, along with my M11-9 SMG barrel thta was cut from blank and chambered and lights off everything I feed it... What we have here is a failure to communicate. You have a "bad bolt" that does not have the proper amount of firing pin protrusion to pop off primers in a proper SAAMI spec chamber. Either you don't know that, don't want to admit that, or just don't care - I don't know. Common sense should kick in and tell you that you do not start modifying other parts of a gun just to get them to work with a "defective" part - you replace the defective part. A 9mm bolt with .018-.020" of firing pin protrusion is "defective". No if's, and's or but's about it. The proper fix is to replace your "bad bolt" with a "good bolt" and use an unmodified std. barrel with the proper SAAMI spec chamber. There is no need to mill the barrel face and re-cut a chamber that is shorter than SAAMI spec. A SAAMI spec chamber and a bolt with .035-.040" FP protrusion will function just fine with all factory ammo that is .005-.010" short of the SAAMI max case length spec. That's how things work - it is the same for every gun - this is not something unique to the 9mm AR platform. A factory Glock 9mm chamber is .754" deep and it has no trouble firing the same factory ammo that is .005-.010" short of SAAMI max case length spec. Know why? Because it has sufficient firing pin/striker protrusion. If I happened to get a Glock that only had .018-.020" of firing pin/striker protrusion, I would not go out and proclaim to the world that the fix was to mill the barrel and chamber it shorter than spec just to get it to work. I would call Glock and send the gun in for warranty repair/replacement and let them replace the slide, striker, barrel and/or whatever else was necessary to get it back "in spec". If by some off chance, a barrel has a chamber that is cut too deep, the proper fix there is to send it back to the barrel manufacturer and get a replacement that is "in-spec". No offense to the OP, but stuff happens - hopefully you won't have any more problems with your barrel. But, if you do, I wouldn't expect any support from Sabre on your barrel since you modified it. If Sabre screwed it up, you should have sent it back to them and told them to send you a replacement barrel that was "in-spec". |
| you are totally right. it is always better to give the manufacturer the chance to fix or replace it. but there are two problems. first, you have no idea about wait times (more than a year) and we don't have direct contact to sabre in england. all conversation goes to the european distrubuter (which isn't very helpful). because of that, i have a very good gunsmith (which even manufacture by himself different barrels) and we fix what is possible. that was in this case a simple thing. |
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you are totally right. it is always better to give the manufacturer the chance to fix or replace it. but there are two problems. first, you have no idea about wait times (more than a year) and we don't have direct contact to sabre in england. all conversation goes to the european distrubuter (which isn't very helpful). because of that, i have a very good gunsmith (which even manufacture by himself different barrels) and we fix what is possible. that was in this case a simple thing. A "defective" barrel could cause a liability situation for the manufacturer and the distributor that they would surely want to address if/when notified. Giving the distributor and manufacturer a "heads up" to see whether they will address the issue in an expeditious manner is still the most prudent and first course of action I would take. If they decide to tell you it will be a year wait after you notify them, then I suppose it is your call on how to proceed. I suppose it's your call to bypass the manufacturer/distributor altogether also, but if you don't notify them, how do you know the wait time will be more than a year for a warranty replacement of a defective product? I have had several items in the past that were warranted pretty quickly in the states, even though I would have had to wait many months, if not up to a year if I had just ordered the product normally. Anyway, hopefully it all works out for you and you don't run into any other "issues" down the road. |
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I am proud your problem is fixed. I just didn't want this thread to go down the incorrect road like this one almost did:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=427347 |
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I am proud your problem is fixed. I just didn't want this thread to go down the incorrect road like this one almost did: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=427347 That thread was a prime example of a misunderstanding of the underlying problem - A BAD BOLT WITH IMPROPER FIRING PIN PROTRUSION. I'm sure similar threads will come up again, and again. Much the same as if someone came on here with a complaint of a gun with a bent barrel that was shooting left and a suggestion was made that they just adjust their sites to compensate, instead of replacing the "bad" barrel. I think too many around here are way too eager to accept "crap" product with the expectation that they have to repair or modify it to get it to work properly. That is not a good thing. Nothing personal to SBR, but when the only tool you have is a hammer - every problem pretty much looks like a nail. You have a "bad"/"defective"/'out of spec" bolt with improper firing pin protrusion. Once you realize that is your problem, and address/fix that problem (i.e. replace your bolt), I think you will find that any unmolested barrel with a "spec" chamber will function properly with any factory ammo and pretty much any reload (even if the case is upwards of .020" shorter than max spec - keep in mind, .754" is a MAX spec, not THE spec - ammo manufacturers will typically allow some room so they don't exceed it and 9mm factory brass will likely continue to come up just short of it). |
| Yeah, and you guys need to read, too. The OP stated in is fifth post his pin protrusion was spec and yet he was getting mostly good strikes, but light strikes occasionally. Once you know that, you're pretty much left with headspace or very short 9mm cases if you understand how a blowback action works. He never mentioned re-loads, so you pretty much knew where this was headed. |
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Yeah, and you guys need to read, too. The OP stated in is fifth post his pin protrusion was spec and yet he was getting mostly good strikes, but light strikes occasionally. Once you know that, you're pretty much left with headspace or very short 9mm cases if you understand how a blowback action works. He never mentioned re-loads, so you pretty much knew where this was headed. That is why I asked if the firing pin is sticking at all. This issue will happen if its not moving freely. |
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yes, it is always important to read exactly. i didn't want to create such a discussion near a fight.
to badazzer: i also thought first that the fp is sticking by somewhat from time to time. but i cleaned it well. so after a good inspection with my gunsmith we were able to locate the problem and fixed it as discribed above. to all of you: for me now it doesn't matter that the discussion ended closed to a fight, which wasn't necessary, because i get what i needed ––> some good input to find the problem and fix it. THANKS TO ALL OF YOU! |
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yes, it is always important to read exactly. i didn't want to create such a discussion near a fight. to badazzer: i also thought first that the fp is sticking by somewhat from time to time. but i cleaned it well. so after a good inspection with my gunsmith we were able to locate the problem and fixed it as discribed above. to all of you: for me now it doesn't matter that the discussion ended closed to a fight, which wasn't necessary, because i get what i needed ––> some good input to find the problem and fix it. THANKS TO ALL OF YOU! What ended up being the problem? |
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What ended up being the problem? Previous posts : Posted: 6/12/2009 1:59:03 PM EDT ––-> Quoted:
ok, i checked the headspace and, ta-taa, it is really to much. so, bolt closed is still a gap between boltface and primer about 0.035". so i know now what to do ––> new barrel. sh... happens. guys, thank you very much. the photos were exactly what i needed to catch the problem. many thanks to you. Posted: 6/19/2009 10:26:57 PM EDTQuoted:
sorry guys for the long time without no message. <snip> <snip> good news. we (me and my gunsmith) have solved the problem. the chamber was about 0.035" too deep. so the firing pin wasn't able to reach the primer of some sort of ammo. so we milled the barrel end about .025" down and also the barrel flange. now the barrel is set back in the receiver and it works fine (tested last night), even in full auto. not one light primer strike with every type of ammo. so, sbr7_11 was totally right and gave me the absolutely right instructions ––> many thanks. also thanks to all other guys for help. <snip> thanks to all of you from switzelrand His diagnosis was based on this pic.. Happy to see fella got his firearm repaired.
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