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Posted: 3/18/2009 5:51:51 AM EDT
| What is the reliablity of a 22lr conversion kit? My dad bought a ciener over ten years ago and we eventually sold it cause it was so unreliable. Have they improved, or was ours a fluke? I can't afford to shoot 223 as much as I wish, but 22lr is still cheap. |
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I'm still in the process of "tuning" my new .22 conversion. It is very frustrating and taking way more effort to get it running solid than I would have thought. I am now waiting for one of the lighter hammer springs to see if that helps. Was hoping I wouldn't have to make any changes to my AR but I can really see the potential of this thing working and making me immensely happy. Right now I can squeeze off about 3 rounds in between jams, and occasionally an entire mag. I guess it's hard to make a perfect conversion kit because it will be used in such a wide variety of different ARs. Some people here have said they drop in their kit and it just works right out of the box. I've read all the threads on this and it seems like about half and half to me. 50% run great and 50% need minor to severe adjustments.
Good Luck!!! 
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From personal experience and reading on here, the ciener kits do take some (a lot?!) of tweaking to get to run correctly.. For me it was three fold problem once i got it figured out; 1) keeping the ciener lubed (to the point of almost being wet) so it moves freely 2) polishing the ciener so that there is less drag as it cycles, and 3) feed lip problems of the mags.
BUT since the invention of the Black Dog magazine it seems that a lot of the feed lip problems have been corrected...The OEM ciener mags were metal and the lips were easily bent. IF when you cycle the bolt (with cartridge in the chamber) and it doesnt throw the cartridge clear of the rifle the feed lips are out of adjustment. here is also a LINK to how to polish the ciener to help increase reliability. I just used steel wool to knock the finish off and it worked alright, but using some polish and a dremal would certainly do better.. The kits were originally made to run using High Velocity ammo, but based on the polishing it up it should work using better with any ammo. I am now finding that part of my problem appears to be that my recoil spring is getting weak. That causes the bolt to not strip a cartridge from the mag and close completely. Black Dog carries a complete line of springs, extractors, and firing pins (along with their now pretty much famous magazines) for the ciener and other conversion kits. Also you need to watch what ammo you are using.. Some ammo (remington) seems to not work well at all. The Federal bulk packs from walmart seem to be the good combination of low price/accuracy/reliabilty.. I hope this helps Brian |
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I'm still in the process of "tuning" my new .22 conversion. It is very frustrating and taking way more effort to get it running solid than I would have thought. I am now waiting for one of the lighter hammer springs to see if that helps. Was hoping I wouldn't have to make any changes to my AR but I can really see the potential of this thing working and making me immensely happy. Right now I can squeeze off about 3 rounds in between jams, and occasionally an entire mag. I guess it's hard to make a perfect conversion kit because it will be used in such a wide variety of different ARs. Some people here have said they drop in their kit and it just works right out of the box. I've read all the threads on this and it seems like about half and half to me. 50% run great and 50% need minor to severe adjustments. Good Luck!!! . Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned. 
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) |
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Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned.
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) The flip side is that there are some that don't feel they should have to do much of anything - stuff should work right out of the box. For the most part, I have found Ciener kits to be fairly good performers right out of the box in semi auto firing with federal bulk pack ammo from walmart. I only have direct experience with about a dozen or so of them myself though. On the other flip side, there are perhaps some people that shouldn't be doing any "fine tuning" when it comes to firearms. 
On yet another flip side, there are those that find "deals" when people get frustrated and "dump" product that "doesn't work" for them. 
Think how much easier it might be if firearms and accessories were more like plastic model kits and had different skill levels associated with them. Everyone would know at a glance what they were getting themselves into. 
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Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned.
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) The flip side is that there are some that don't feel they should have to do much of anything - stuff should work right out of the box. For the most part, I have found Ciener kits to be fairly good performers right out of the box in semi auto firing with federal bulk pack ammo from walmart. I only have direct experience with about a dozen or so of them myself though. On the other flip side, there are perhaps some people that shouldn't be doing any "fine tuning" when it comes to firearms.
On yet another flip side, there are those that find "deals" when people get frustrated and "dump" product that "doesn't work" for them.
Think how much easier it might be if firearms and accessories were more like plastic model kits and had different skill levels associated with them. Everyone would know at a glance what they were getting themselves into. . so true
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. Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned.
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) Would you impart your wisdom on your procedure for this? Or by chance is it posted someplace else? thanks Brian |
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. Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned.
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) Would you impart your wisdom on your procedure for this? Or by chance is it posted someplace else? thanks Brian I don't want to speak for red, but I'd start with a reduced power hammer spring and then try different/reduced power recoil springs if necessary. You can also make sure the rails are perfectly straight and polish them to make sure they are as smooth as possible where the bolt rides - kind of like a "fluff & buff". You can also try the Lakeside Machine Spring Kit |
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. Its great to see someone that understands the wide variety of different ARs and springs will make 22 kits cycle good or put up a fight until tuned.
Many get fustrated and just sell the kit instead of doing some fine tuning. I have fine tuned 30+ kits Ciener, cmmg, spikes, TacSol and all of them will cycle the low power Aguila subsonic and 90% of other hi vel ammo makes. ( Remington not so good) Would you impart your wisdom on your procedure for this? Or by chance is it posted someplace else? thanks Brian I don't want to speak for red, but I'd start with a reduced power hammer spring and then try different/reduced power recoil springs if necessary. You can also make sure the rails are perfectly straight and polish them to make sure they are as smooth as possible where the bolt rides - kind of like a "fluff & buff". You can also try the Lakeside Machine Spring Kit . kevins_garage has got you started on the correct path 
Here is another link that will show you other spots on the bolt that could use pollishing like the spring rod, firing pin, the ramp where the hammer contacts, under the bolt where the 22 shell drags when picking up a fresh round and back stroking on the next round, the front of the extractor where it contacts the chamber adapter extractor ramp when closing. http://home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/id3.html . I have had a few kits that the chamber had a very rough finnish and caused problems with FTF because the 22 round wouldnt seat in the chamber fully after 50 rounds so i gave it a little pollish and the carbon and lead buildup stopped. |
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I have a cmmg conversion and it has run flawlessly right out of the box I have over2k through it I have had many that run great out of the box with good hi vel ammo. Try shooting Aguila 40 grn subsonic ammo with it and if it cycles then you got real lucky.
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I received my Lakeside spring kit from BDM yesterday and got a chance to install a recoil spring today.. WITHOUT cutting any length off the spring, federal bulk cycled without any problems.. I also got SSS (subsonic sniper) to cycle as well..
What is the best way to figure out how much to cut off the recoil spring? IF you change the hammer springs does that affect performance of 5.56 as well? I get quite a few FTE that get stuck at 12 o'clock inside the gun (between the ciener and the upper receive).. Anyone got a fix or suggestions to stop that or even what causes it? thanks Brian Edited to add.. Im heading to Knoxville this weekend to seethe inlaws, so Im going to hit an indoor range there to work the kinks out of the set up - I hope |
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I used information from the various threads in this forum to tune my Ciener conversion. After polishing/reshaping the lower rear of the bolt, notching the rear of the adapter to clear my buffer retainer, and about 250 rounds of break-in during which I used high temperature anti-seize as a lubricant, the kit works well with Remington Golden Bullets and slightly less reliably with Federal bulk pack.
Accuracy is almost identical between the Ciener installed in an RRA 16" 1X9 chrome lined barrel and my Spike's dedicated upper - which was a bit of a surprise. Both group approximately 1" @ 25 yards, 2" at 50 yards, and can reliably hit a 4" target at 100 yards. Not match quality, but good enough for combat practice. Firing Federal bulk ammo, the Spike's dedicated upper's reliability is definitely better with the Ciener kit. The Ciener kit's reliability with Golden Bullets is about on par with the Spike's upper firing Federal bulk, and so I suspect that if the Spike's would chamber the Remington ammo (Tom, I hope you're reading this!) it would be more reliable and accurate than the Ciener/RRA upper. I did not change hammer spring or recoil spring. I did replace the notched hammer with a DPMS hammer. The Ciener exhibits occasional blowback of gas/powder residue, either from the gas tube or seepage past the chamber adapter. Edit: I'm left handed, so I probably notice this more than a right handed shooter would. |
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I received my Lakeside spring kit from BDM yesterday and got a chance to install a recoil spring today.. WITHOUT cutting any length off the spring, federal bulk cycled without any problems.. I also got SSS (subsonic sniper) to cycle as well.. What is the best way to figure out how much to cut off the recoil spring? IF you change the hammer springs does that affect performance of 5.56 as well? I get quite a few FTE that get stuck at 12 o'clock inside the gun (between the ciener and the upper receive).. Anyone got a fix or suggestions to stop that or even what causes it? thanks Brian Edited to add.. Im heading to Knoxville this weekend to seethe inlaws, so Im going to hit an indoor range there to work the kinks out of the set up - I hope Brian, You did not say whether you were using BDM or Ciener mags, but I had this problem with Ciener mags and with any of my problems reducing the height of the feed lips on my metal mags has cured this problem. What is happening is the extracted case is being moved rearward, and before it can hit the ejector, the case rim nicks the top of the mag feed lips and gets kicked straight up. I have not done this (nor needed to) with BDM mags. You might also want to check to see if there is anything causing the mag lips to be too high, like the mag catch being at a high point of tolerance, or perhaps you putting magazine torque while firing (mag well hold). Craig |
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I received my Lakeside spring kit from BDM yesterday and got a chance to install a recoil spring today.. WITHOUT cutting any length off the spring, federal bulk cycled without any problems.. I also got SSS (subsonic sniper) to cycle as well.. What is the best way to figure out how much to cut off the recoil spring? IF you change the hammer springs does that affect performance of 5.56 as well? I get quite a few FTE that get stuck at 12 o'clock inside the gun (between the ciener and the upper receive).. Anyone got a fix or suggestions to stop that or even what causes it? thanks Brian Edited to add.. Im heading to Knoxville this weekend to seethe inlaws, so Im going to hit an indoor range there to work the kinks out of the set up - I hope Brian, You did not say whether you were using BDM or Ciener mags, but I had this problem with Ciener mags and with any of my problems reducing the height of the feed lips on my metal mags has cured this problem. What is happening is the extracted case is being moved rearward, and before it can hit the ejector, the case rim nicks the top of the mag feed lips and gets kicked straight up. I have not done this (nor needed to) with BDM mags. You might also want to check to see if there is anything causing the mag lips to be too high, like the mag catch being at a high point of tolerance, or perhaps you putting magazine torque while firing (mag well hold). Craig thanks Craig - I am using the Black Dog mags, but they are some of these are first ones made that I had to tweak/file down the lips a little. I just recently bought some current Gen 1 mags, but havent tried them yet.. I will use your suggestions and try to narrow down the problem... thanks Brian |
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First I bought a Ciener. Getting that running smoothly required a bunch of work, but afterwards it would cycle Wolf MT and Aquila SSS flawlessly.
- stoning/polishing the rails - tweaking the steel mag lips - tweaking BDM plastic mag lips - lubing the thing like crazy - adjusting the slot in the chamber adapter so it would extract unfired rounds - tweaking the extractor to improve ejection consistency Then I purchased a Spikes ST-22 dedicated upper, which almost worked reliably out of the box provided I was using Federal Bulk pack ammo. With a bunch more tuning it now works smoothly with nearly every sort of ammo that I care to feed it. - re-profile chamber transition from feed ramp to enhance reliability of feeding - polish chamber edges to eliminate lead shaving & deformed rounds - polish chamber walls to enhance feeding of stubborn ammo (Rem GB, CCI MiniMags, Wolf MT, ...) - adjust slot in barrel to allow extractor to remove unfired rounds - tighten extractor hook to improve ejection consistency and eliminate stove pipes - file down bolt catch to prevent unintended contact with bolt - straighten rails - swap out NM 2 stage trigger/hammer for regular DPMS trigger/hammer to avoid bolt hanging up - tweak sides of BDM mag lips to prevent contact with underside of bolt - made a recoil buffer out of a nylon washer to prevent the recoil spring & bolt from beating up the tiny E clip. - tuned the length of the recoil spring. At its last outing, my ST-22 fired 300 rounds back-to-back without so much as a single hiccup. All the empties were thrown smartly away in the 4 o clock direction. With it finally running so smoothly, what the hell am I going to do with my weekends?
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First I bought a Ciener. Getting that running smoothly required a bunch of work, but afterwards it would cycle Wolf MT and Aquila SSS flawlessly. - stoning/polishing the rails - tweaking the steel mag lips - tweaking BDM plastic mag lips - lubing the thing like crazy - adjusting the slot in the chamber adapter so it would extract unfired rounds - tweaking the extractor to improve ejection consistency Then I purchased a Spikes ST-22 dedicated upper, which almost worked reliably out of the box provided I was using Federal Bulk pack ammo. With a bunch more tuning it now works smoothly with nearly every sort of ammo that I care to feed it. - re-profile chamber transition from feed ramp to enhance reliability of feeding - polish chamber edges to eliminate lead shaving & deformed rounds - polish chamber walls to enhance feeding of stubborn ammo (Rem GB, CCI MiniMags, Wolf MT, ...) - adjust slot in barrel to allow extractor to remove unfired rounds - tighten extractor hook to improve ejection consistency and eliminate stove pipes - file down bolt catch to prevent unintended contact with bolt - straighten rails - swap out NM 2 stage trigger/hammer for regular DPMS trigger/hammer to avoid bolt hanging up - tweak sides of BDM mag lips to prevent contact with underside of bolt - made a recoil buffer out of a nylon washer to prevent the recoil spring & bolt from beating up the tiny E clip. - tuned the length of the recoil spring. At its last outing, my ST-22 fired 300 rounds back-to-back without so much as a single hiccup. All the empties were thrown smartly away in the 4 o clock direction. With it finally running so smoothly, what the hell am I going to do with my weekends? Can you explain adjusting the extractor slot? My Spike's kit won't extract an unfired round –– I have to fire it to clear the chamber. |
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My ciener conversion doesn't work that well. I polished and changed out the recoil spring, but I am still getting FTF 3 out of 5 rounds. I am using Federal "auto match" ammo. Maybe I need to switch to Aguila? There was a batch of bad Automatch. I bought two cartons. Failures to feed, fire, eject, etc. Accuracy bad - can actually feel the difference in power round to round and it shows on the target. Gave it to my friend to shoot in his Marlin bolt gun - he got failures to fire too even with multiple attempts to fire. Accuracy bad. I've still got one carton and don't know what to do with it. Lot number is 18W412. Some reported that they got Federal to replace their ammo but I don't know how true that is. I'm stuck cause I can't easily ship ammo to the mainland without spend a lot of $$$. My Kuehl dedicated and various Cieners and the Spike's drop-in run CCI SV, CCI Minimag, Wolf MT and most other good quality ammo. Will run most lots of CCI Blazer. The Kuehl choked on the bad lot of AutoMatch. YMMV |
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