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Posted: 9/24/2008 5:19:14 PM EDT
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I have been looking at most of the past posts concerning 22 lr conversions. It seems that there isn't a thread dedicated to the faqs. just wondering if we should start one. Here are a few questions that I think could be answered by people who have used these kits. (obviously a dedicated upper would be ideal but it seems that due to $$$ many are going towards the conversion kit (me includedhat What kind of accuracy can one expect out of 1/12", 1/9", 1/8", 1/7" barrels (most 22lr rifles use 1/16" twist as the ideal twist but what about these others?) Does barrel length 14.5", 16", 20", etc... affect accuracy and velocity (general consensus seems that 16" barrels burn all of the powder and any more length is not necessary)? Does barrel type affect accuracy (bull barrels vs m4 profile for rimfire)? Should you clean every time before switching back to fire .223 rounds or after every 200+ rounds of .22 lr ? what type of reliability can one expect with quality factory ammo? Sorry if I have anything wrong and feel free to correct me in anything that I have written. It just seems that these questions keep popping up and it might be good to get a tacked thread with some of these and other questions about 22 lr conversion kits thanks Russ |
Opinions of the author contained herein.
There are at least five different formats out there, and none of them interchange outside their own format: 1. Colt/DPMS 2. USGI M261/Olympic 3. CV22 4. Atchisson/Ceiner/CMMG/Spikes Tactical 5. USAF At any one time, you could encounter any of these for sale.
The faster the twist, the less accurate. 1/12 is the best of the lot.
More barrel length usually means less noise and a longer sight radius. With an optical sight, the sight radius is OBE.
Of course. Whether you are personally consistent enough to take advantage of it is another matter.
.22LR is inherently dirty, esp. in a blowback action. Unless you're conducting a torture test of some sort, why not clean after each shooting session?
These kits all require breaking-in and usually some fine tuning. The other thing to remember is that .22LRs are finicky about ammo. Since you can't handload, you have to try different brands to see what your particular .22LR likes the best. The Federal bulk has a pretty good reputation; the Remington bulk has been pretty crappy for at least the last 25 to 30 years. Worst .22LR ammo I ever had was some old "Mohawk" in the brown box. At least 2 FTF per box, and usually more. |
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thanks for all of the help guys. keep it up. Badazzar15- is spikes tactical making a conversion kit besides the dedicated upper? and if so is it coated (chromed) like in the dedicated upper so that it takes less lube than the regular ceiner (sp?) kit? If anyone knows and would like to state the basic differences between the manufacturers listing strong and weak points of the design that would be great also thanks russ |
We do have a working prototype. The chamber adapters are being made as we speak. The bolt itself is the same. And yes it is plated as well. -Tom@Spike's Tactical |
No clue. The key to sorting these out is the interchangeability of the magazines. The up-and-coming magazine format is the Atchisson/Ceiner/etc. style. Try calling M1S and asking which type magazines fit. |
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All total, I have run 7 Ciener Units, in 16 different AR Rifles and Pistols. After picking up a bunch of BDM Full Bodied Magazines and using only Federal Bulk from WalMart I have fired a total of over 25,000 rounds. Of that I have had an average of less than 1 FTF or FTE per 100. Some of that was from dud ammo and some from the case being kicked up into the gas tube. Yes, the rounds at times don't go bang to the same level. But they still hit the target and are not that far off. I haven't had a failed extraction in months. I've had a couple that didn't go bang on the first hit though. I've fired Cieners in pistols from 7.5" and 10.5" with 1/9 twist. In rifles from 16 to 20" 1/7 TO 1/12 twist. I've found that in general 1/9 through 1/12 work about the same as far as accuracy. Haven't found much accuracy difference in any length atleast at 25 yards, 50 yards, yes. It's more a factor of how steady I can maintain the weapon. I run the Cieners with a coating of Break Free but not dripping. I clean them with Non CFC Brake Cleaner and thoroughly lube them. I've fired 500 rounds with no problems and no further lube. My most accurate Rifle is made with parts from 17 different manufacturers, 1/9 Oly Barrel. It will hold rounds within the bullseye using the bench to steady myself except for the occasional light or heavy round in the Bulk Ammo. The worst case was the 1/7 Colt that held 7" at the same 25 yards. That's too much spin on a 36 grain bullet. I have fired a Colt Conversion. Till BDM has mags, I'll hold off on an opinion. I like Cieners more because of design. I have 2 of Oly's M261's. After a minor feed ramp and ejection side feed lip mod to the BDM Mags they are as functional as Cieners. They're a tiny bit less accurate for whatever reason. I noticed that there is more finish wear on the unit and the upper receiver because there is only one rail to guide the bolt. That is a minor consideration. I noticed the extracted cases were flying 20 to 30 feet. Kinda Cool, Keeps curious people at a distance. Atleast on the right side. I haven't fired a CMMG Kit but suspect them to be atleast as good as a Ciener. Everyone Praises Spikes new plated unit and I believe it will be/is great, based on the other "Cool Stuff" I've purchased from Spikes. I haven't acquired an Air Force Conversion to shoot but I have Issue Mags for it. I would expect it to be somewhat similar to the M261. I have heard good and bad about other Conversions. Don't have any opinion without trying them. My conclusions are that I don't need a dedicated 22 upper with 1/16 twist to have a great deal of fun and a rifle that is more accurate than I am. With better, expensive ammo more accuracy may be achievable. 1/9 through 1/12 twist are so close to the same accuracy that I don't have a favorite. Bulk 22 Federal works fine for me. One of my rifles has 8,000 22LR rounds through it with no .223's and the gas system is clear. I've saved over $7500,00 on ammo vs .223 and it's been more fun than any shooting I have ever done in any Caliber. SO-13 |
| If you already have a Ciener kit, M1S will deliver an upper with the modified chamber insert but no bolt for $50 off the list price. Includes one BDM skinny or Ciener 10rd. Reduced wait being the benefit. That's how I got mine back in May when NOBODY had Ciener kits and Spike's wasn't shipping yet. |
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I have the Tactical Solutions M4 Upper and the Ceiner drop in kits. As much as I like the TacSol upper and bolt group, I consistently get 2 FTF in 30. It was designed to use the Federal bulk from WalMart and thats what I was using. Other brands performed poorly by comparision. I do need to contact them again and discuss it. I get more reliability with my Ceiner drop in. I use the Black Dogs with both. A 22 conversion is definately the way to go to practice your skills and drills. |
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Just to add here is some info regarding our New bolt. Our bolts have a big advantage over the Modified Ceiner that we use to use. While they look a like, We put months of R&D into the Design so don't let the similarities fool you. We have prototype bolts with over 20k rounds through them. That's why it took 8 months to make it happen, We wern't going to release something that wasn't Proven. We changed the material which it was made from the bolt, the rail, firing pin, extractor, spring guide and so on. The firing pin is made from High Quality Tool steel and Hardened, the firing pin retaining pin was relocated. The firing pin was always the weakest link in the Ceiner. The extractor is also made from High Quality Tool steel. The chamber adapter was redesigned, the feed ramp was raised and the angle was changed, the Ceiner was too low. The recoil spring guide was redesigned with an E-clip, the rail was also redesigned with a pocket to accept the redesigned spring guide. We changed the way the rail was welded to the end cap in the rear of the bolt, the Ceiners were welded in the back "some of our first new bolts were too", we now weld them top and bottom for a stronger, cleaner look. We use quality spring for everything. The bolt and rail was designed to accept a ball and spring, which is an Anti-bounce for Full Auto. The finish is one of the best quality's of the bolt. It requires NO lube, which makes for a cleaner weapon, Lube+22LR=Mud!! The finish is smooter/slicker which means you don't have to polish or Modify anything. ETA: This applys to both the Dedicated bolt and the Drop-in Conversion. -Tom@Spike's Tactical |
If I ordered a dedicated 22LR upper from you today, would it come with the new bolt you describe above? Thanks! |
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