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Posted: 7/10/2008 4:58:41 PM EDT
| Lets see, we have 45, 9mm, and 22..... since 9 is the same caliber, why doesnt somebody make it possible to shoot a magnum load? come on, I'm sure I'm not the only person who would get one....... |
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Rimmed cartridges don't feed as easily as rimless do in a semi-auto. Also, you have the issue of magazines. You could adapt a Desert Eagle mag to work, but you're still pretty limited on capacity. Are you looking for a hunting rifle, or just something else to play with? (not that there's anything wrong with that). |
Is why you dont see them. |
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Oly Arms made a 30 Carbine upper and offered it with an adapter that allowed you to use 30 Carbine magazines. Sales were ... shall we say ... limited. Not due to the design but just not a big seller... 357 Sig has been tried by several folks, Kurt's Kustom had a nice article published on it, but I am not sure how many folks bought one. Magazines can be a bit tricky and shooting a high pressure bottle neck case in straight blow back can be murder on your cases ... forget reloading 357 Magnum is rimmed ... Tromix built upper in 44 Magnum at one time. Nice article in a big publication - he sold less than 5 ... so he stopped making them and they were a pain to get them to behave. The Desert Eagle mag does not present the round the same way when the mag is full v. when the mag is close to empty and that makes feeding a challenge. 357 Rimless - AR15barrels made one upper, maybe more by making the rimless version of the 357 Magnum using 223 brass. It worked, but I don't think anyone bought any, also because you have to make your own brass and ammo. So while every now and them someone asks about an upper in that caliber, there is just not enough overall interest for someone to really start making them. Kinda like folks asking for uppers in 38 Super or 9x23 .... |
Yep, you could approach .357 Maximum with the 30 Carb but it is a serious wildcat. |
Marty, Now that I have a working gas operated 357 Sig AR that does not have any of the limitations of a blowback system, do you think that would peak the interest of more folks? I feel that with the price of 9mm ammo going up and up, the 357 sig is not as expensive (relatively) to shoot as it used to be. I'm kind of curious to see how many folks would be interested in such an AR. I will start a poll to see how many folks out there would want one. Thanks again Marty! |
I guess I don't quite understand that statement. Yes, 9mm costs more than it did a year ago. .357 Sig still costs more than 9x19, so where are the savings? I still think you would see pretty weak sales. 9mm is still much less expensive than .357 Sig to shoot. It's also much more available. Availability and lower price = 9mm more popular. As others have noted, a pistol-caliber AR is basically a range toy, so why not shoot the more common / less expensive ammo? Also as noted, if you want more power than a 9mm, use a rifle caliber. The one place where the pistol caliber stuff shines is with a suppressor. Here, the .357 Sig, .30 Carbine, and .357 Mag would all still have the same limitations as the 9mm (how heavy can you get the bullet, while staying around 1000 fps). In this instance, if you need more (subsonic) power than a 147 gr. 9mm, use a .300 Whisper or one of the other heavy-bullet wildcats. |
Another small niche for certain pistol calibers in an AR-15 platform is for deer hunting here in Indiana. Our law allow rifles to be used for deer if the case length without bullet falls between 1.16" and 1.625", and the bullet diameter is at least .357". The most popular rounds that meet those parameters are the .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .500 S&W. They'd be big sellers here, if there were a way to make them feed reliably. The .458 SOCOM also fits those parameters, so that is the most common choice for an AR-based platform for deer. But, since .458 SOCOM ammo isn't sitting on Wal-Mart shelves, many steer clear of it. We'd have more black rifles in the deer woods here if you could get 'em in .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum. |
How hard is it to find .450 Bushmaster in your state? We have Cabela's, Scheel's & Gander Mountain around here, so it's not a problem. But as far as range toys go, why not just get a cheap to feed.22lr kit/upper? |
| I pondered the 10mm mag run through a 357 sig die years ago and then found that it was already done. http://daplane.com/wildcat.htm This guy did it with a contender. I looked at having a barrel made (and Randal even had the reamer made), but I could never get a return call and eventally gave up. I still think it would be a fun little gun. |
it cost more than a decent condition M1 Carbine is my guess why it didn't sell well |
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I like the idea of a .357 or 9mm rimless magnum based on a .223 case cut to .357 Mag or .357 Max length, or whatever works best in a standard AR magazine. Something that would give equivalent performance to my .357 Mag rifle, but in an AR. It's actually a better idea than a 9mm upper, because the only thing different from a standard AR would be the barrel, and that could be a standard 9mm barrel rechambered and with a gas port drilled. That could be cheaper than a regular 9mm carbine because it could use .223 mags and .223 bolt. Ammo could be loaded with standard .357 dies and a .223 shell holder. Good for cast bullets, too. |
You could do the same thing, except use a .30 caliber bullet instead... and you would have a .300 Whisper. Like the two rounds shown to the left. 
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Not quite. Most 9mm barrels are set up with the Colt/RRA system which does not use an extension. You would have to recut the end of the barrel, install the extension and then rechamber. If the original barrel had a pinned front sight, it will be near impossible to time the extension to that sight. It will be cheaper to make a new barrel in that case ... 9mm blanks are NOT that expensive. |
Case is 0.99. Challenge is getting mags that will feed it AND fit the AR ... |
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Quoted: Now that I have a working gas operated 357 Sig AR that does not have any of the limitations of a blowback system, do you think that would peak the interest of more folks? I feel that with the price of 9mm ammo going up and up, the 357 sig is not as expensive (relatively) to shoot as it used to be. I'm kind of curious to see how many folks would be interested in such an AR. I will start a poll to see how many folks out there would want one. I would be interested in gas operated 357 Sig and/or 10mm AR uppers. I no longer use my blowback operated 9mm upper because I hate cleaning the thing. The only downside I see to these pistol caliber ARs are the lack of good magazines, which is why I've held off on getting a 7.62x39mm AR upper until now. |
He had a thread on it awhile back... said there was not enough demand. I personally would have picked one up. |
The mags are GG mags modified to fit in the back of the magwell & a C Products 6.5G mag with a plastic/derlin filler in it. So far so good but the testing continues.
Randall @ AR15 barrels was working on this precise prototype for awhile. You would have to use a different bolt for fireforming, then and standard bolt from that point forward. It would only feed spire point 9mm bullets. I forget what kind of ballistics he was getting. You would have to start loading at book max 357 loads, then work your way up to .223 pressures to get your gas system working. He dropped the project due to lack of interest. |
| GG mags are grease gun & they double stack but single feed. If I remember corectly they hold 35 or 37 rnds. 10.7g of AA#7 with a 180g pill avg 1335fps for a 16" tube. AA#7 is real dirty & I need to look at some alternate fuels. Too fast a powder dosent give the gas required to run her. I built it for someone here on the boards but I have an extra brl here. |
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