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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - BDM CZ V-22 Mag Testing - UPDATE (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/13/2007 10:48:13 AM EDT
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Hi Everyone, Many of you should be receiving your BDM V-22 test mags today. I have asked the mods to post an official tacked thread for the V-22 mag testing, just as they did for the Ciener and M261 tests. (If there is a way for me to do this myself, please let me know.) In the meantime, if anybody wants to report any results, please feel free to use this thread. Any details you can provide as to how the mags perform would be appreciated. I'm sure you already know what kind of data will be useful. All I ask is that you please make sure your uppers are cleaned and lubed before you start testing. Feel free to use any .22LR ammo you like. However, I wouldn't expect favorable results from any subsonic or standard velocity ammo. I recommend you stick with only high velocity or hyper velocity ammo. (My personal favorite is Aguila Supermaximum Hyper Velocity in 30 grain copper plated HP. It smells like ass, but it cycles better than anything else I've tried in the V-22 test mags.) Thanks again to everyone who volunteered. I'll be looking forward to your feedback. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Dan |
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I received my CZ v-22 mag on Tuesday and promptly went to the range. I had very good results. The first magazine I loaded 25 rounds in the mag and proceeded to shoot the rifle. The rifle had just been cleaned and lubed. We were using a CZ upper with approximately 2000 rounds through it. The lower was a recent build on a doublestar lower with a DPMS lower parts kit and RRA NM trigger and CAR collapsible stock. The rifle fired six rounds and the bullets started nose diving in the magazine and catching the bullet nose on the feed ramp. I unloaded the mag down to 10 rounds and finished shooting the remaining 10. I then loaded several more mags with rounds from 10 to 25 rounds and shot 200 rounds of Aguilla SE 40 grain roound nose. I had 3 stove pipe jams and after one of the jams I put a little CLP down the mag body. We shot a lot of rapid fire with excellent results. I then swiched to Fed 36 grain plated HP and fired one full mag of 25 with no problems. On the next mag the Fed. round didn't have enough energy to strip a round from the mag into the chamber. I lubed the bolt and after not picking up rounds two and three the rest of the mag function fine. I shot another mag of 25 and again the Fed didn't have enough energy to chamber the 2nd and 3rd round. I think there is just enough upward pressure on the bottom of the bolt to inhibit functioning. If I had loaded 22 or 23 rounds I believe the mag would have functioned perfectly. I then switched to Remington bulk 550 Golden Bullet HP. The rifle basically turned into a single shot. The rounds did not have enough energy to work and when the round did feed the bolt had to be pushed forward into battery. A lot of the bullets were to large in diameter to fit in the CZ chamber. It then staarting raining and I had to stop testing. The temperature was 62 degrees with 88 % humidity. Overall my shooting partners and I were very impressed. I believe all of the malfunctions except the first mag were ammo related. I intend to shoot two additional CZ's with other brands of ammo saturday. If first impressions are correct I think BDM has another winner. Fit and finish was excellent. I only wish BDM would now design a 25 round mag for the DPMS and Colt conversion. Then the world would be perfect!!!!!! I tested the other 2 uppers on sat. with varied results. The first rifle I tested was a colt match target lower and a like new V-22 upper. I'd say the upper had less than 1000 rounds through it. The lower had the original colt trigger. . On the first mag I only loaded 10 rounds of Aguilla 40 grain round nose SE. The first round did not want to chamber. It appears the chamber is tighter on this upper than the other two I tested. When I fired the first round the second round failed to completely chamber. I then had a couple of occasions where the rifle did not go completely into battery and the rifle clicked but no firing pin indentation. I put a little CLP in the mag and loaded 15 Aguillas. On round 3 there was a click but again no firing pin mark on the case. It did this again on round 9,and round 10, 11, and 12 did not completely go into battery with round only half way into the chamber. I had to use the charging handle to completely seat these rounds. The last couple of rounds in the mag functioned. I then switched to remington bulk 36 gr golden bullet. I had no luck with these as the first 4 rounds failed to feed and I discontinued trying to use them. I then switched to 36 grain federal bulk plated HP. I loaded the mag with 15 rounds and on round 5 the round failed to go completely into battery and round 11 I had a stove pipe jam. The next mag I loaded 20 of Fed. and rifle was functioning much better. On round 13 it failed to fire and just clicked and round 18 it did the same thing other wise perfect. On my next (#6 MAG) I loaded 25 rounds of federal. On round # 2 it did not get picked by bolt, bolt closed on an empty chamber. This occurred again on round 4 but the rest of the mag functioned fine. On mag 8 I loaded 20 rounds and fired the mag as fast as possible no malfunctions. On mag # 9 I loaded 20 rounds rapid fire and had a light firing pin strke on round # 16. It appeared report was light on previous round so may have been ammo induced. On mag # 10 20 rounds rapid fire no malfunctions. Mag # 11 first round stove piped then a light firing pin hit on round 12 I re-lubed the rifle and 0n mag #12 and tried Aguillas again. This ammo was not reliable at all and had 8 malfunctions, 1 failed to feed and most failed to fully chamber or slightly out of battery. I then loaded 6 rounds of aguilla which fed and fired fine. I tried remington GB again with no luck. In general this upper was very tight and seemed to loosen up by end of test. I felt the heavy trigger spring hindered functioning. I also tried 20 rounds of Winchester T-22 which ran perfect. I guess the quality control helped with the T-22's. I then test another friends V-22 which has about 3000 rounds through it with a colt lower with RRA NM trigger. I loaded 10 rounds of Aguilla SE which ran fine. Mag #2 loaded 20 rounds, #3 was a stove pipe along with #7 rest of mag was fine. Mag # 3 loaded 20 rounds Aguilla SE, round 16 didn't re-cock hammer but fed rest of mag ok. Mag # 4 loaded 25 Aguilla and round 3 was out of batter. pushed charging handle forward and rest of mag functioned. mag # 5 loaded 25 agulla round # 5 stove piped but rest of mag good functioning. mag # 6 36 grn Fed bulk 25 rounds loaded perfect. mag # 7 25 rounds fed, rapid fire had stove pipe round # 6. mag # 8 25 rounds T-22, round 6 did not cock hammer but fed rest fired good in rapid fire. mag # 10 loaded 20 Remington GB and every round failed to go into battery I gave up at 10 rounds. I also tried 25 rounds of the WW T-22 in the first V-22 I tested. These functioned perfect in rapid fire. I have not yet cleaned the magazine and functioning does not seem to suffer and doesn't seem very dirty. Overall the rifles seem to be more the issue than the magazine. In the past these two uppers have functioned pretty good with Aguillas in the factory 10 round mag. It seems to be a fine line where these rifle function and malfunction. I think this is why 22's are so ammo sensitive. Like others have said, you just have to buy what works in your rifle. I know this is lengthy but someone might be interested. I've taken photos of the malfunctions and will try to post them. I started with both rifles cleaned and lubed with CLP. |
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Below I have listed some of my initial, pre-live fire, observations. I will post updates as I develop new information. I will not be able to get to the range until sometime, week after next. I know that this information may be overkill, BD/CCS already knows this stuff, but other may have an interest. Form: The overall form of the magazine is excellent. I could find nothing to comment on in this regard. Fit: Excellent. I fit tested the magazine in the following lowers: RRA, Ametec, and a pre-ban Colt. Magazine dropped free in all lowers with ease. All lowers retained the magazine in a positive/ solid manner. I noticed no binding, of any type, with any of the lowers. My only point of concern would be the wear, produced by the mag catch, on the magazine body. I have no prior experience with plastic magazines, so this may not be a problem. Others will know better about this. Disassembly: This process is made very easy due to the incorporation of a floor plate. On the bottom of the magazine you will notice a red tab. This tab has small hole in which resides a plastic “detent button”. If one depresses this “detent button” the plastic tab will slide out of its retaining slot freeing the spring alignment pin and spring. All parts can thus be removed. Three of the parts are red in color. They are the follower, spring alignment pin, and the floor plate. (Use caution, as the spring and spring alignment pin will go flying off into space. Don’t ask me how I know.) Re-assembly: Re-assembly is a snap. Load the follower, place spring on the follower spring stud, place spring alignment pin in spring, press into place, and slide the floor plate into position until the detent engages retaining hole. Loading: Rounds 1-15 loaded very easy, 15-20 was harder to manipulate (I’m clumsy), and 20-28 was a PITA. 28 rnds was the max that the magazine would take. With 28 rnds loaded the magazine was difficult to lock into place in the magazine well (no room for the rounds to depress). I will say, for now, that 25 rnds should be the maximum load. Unloading: I performed this manually by cycling the action (just wanted to see if it could be cleared in the manner). All round chambered and extracted with no issues.  BD cz 1  BD cz 2  BD cz 3  ]BD cz 4  Magazine parts  Test weapon |
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I received my test magazine yesterday as well. The quality of manufacture is excellent. I don't really have anything descriptive to add that isn't already mentioned in this thread. However, my magazine does have some issues manually feeding rounds. This concerns me a little because my rifle can manually feed rounds from the three CZ magazines I have. For some reason the rear of the case doesn't want to always come up high enough to be centered on the bolt face and the round is jammed into the chamber at an angle. I'll shoot it tommorrow and see how it does from live fire. |
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First impressions are that the BDM mag is a quality item. My example is in clear precisely moulded plastic although if it follows the normal pattern I would anticipate smoked and all black versions being available too. The two halves are held firmly together by six allen screws (imperial/metric?) into brass ferrules, all slightly recessed with nothing protruding. These are ‘full body’ mags that reflect the size of a 30-round 5.56mm AR/M4 magazine and fill the hand nicely. The surface also has a nice tactile feel with no sharp edges. Close examination reveals a few air bubbles in the moulded halves but I don’t think this will be an issue. The mag follower and base plate remind me of the Ciener items, which gave me a small shudder, but we will see how they perform. The whole assembly put me in mind of the 30 round magazines produced by Steyr and H&K, for their military assault rifles. On my kitchen scales it weighed in at a mere 7 ½ oz. I couldn’t help trying it in the rifle in fairly short order and found that it seated without any problem. Rocking it by the base I found a little fore and aft movement but no lateral movement at all. When the mag release is operated the mag drops free without hesitation. Nice!  The BDM feed lips stop short of the ramp. Nothing like as bad as the Cieners do, but that was a major failing in them, the bolt just sent the round in the general direction of the ramp/breech and hoped for the best, being frequently disappointed.   I am starting with CCI Mini-Mag and loading was easy for the first 20 rounds but then noticeably tightened up, the last three being quite a struggle to get in. I didn't try any more I've left them in and will make sure I have some spray lube in my bag Testing tomorrow or Friday! ********************************************************************** Friday it was then. The test rifle has over 6000 rounds through it so is nicely worn in. Conditions were dry and damn cold, about +4' C. Starting with a full 25 rounds of Mini-Mag I had a dodgy start. The first round chambered fine and fired, but the second was then forced against the bottom edge of the feed ramp causing a stoppage (as in metoo's pics further down this thread). I cleared this but the exact same thing kept happening for about half the magazine before they would chamber on cycling. Second mag was the same, but not quite as many. They would either hit the feed ramp end on and jam or get squashed against the ramp, and not go into battery. First round before letting the bolt go:  Typical misfeed in 'new' magazine:   I tried experimenting with the limits of fore and aft slack in the seated mag but it made no difference. I suspected some binding in the magazine was stopping the rounds from rising freely until the magazine was about half empty. For the next load I sprayed a little dry silicon lube into the top of the magazine. This helped and I also noticed that it was now easier to load the magazine and all 25 rounds went in far easier. I could actually now get 27 in, but kept the load at 25. The rounds then cycled fine for the remaining 50 Mini-Mag I put through it. I think that, like many magazines, there is a short wearing in period that soon passes, but is just annoying at first. It could probably be alleviated from new by the inclusion in the moulding of a block that would carry the round across the gap to the bottom of the feed ramp. I did a similar mod on some Ciener mags to get them to work in the V22:  Next I tried Remington Thunderbolt which was a bit of a let down, but happily nothing to do with the magazine. It now easily loaded with 25 rounds and fed and breeched the round centrally to the bore every time. Unfortunately, these rounds are not very good quality with inconsistent sizes so they frequently wouldn't seat:  I also had a fair number of light loads, going pop instead of bang. No OOB's though thankfully. I am sure this was a poor ammunition issue. Happy with the way things were going I decided to try some subsonics. I know Dan advised against it, but all my other mags feed them quite happily in my V22. I was using Winchester T22's and am happy to report that there was absoloutely no problem with them from the BDM magazine at all. Out of the 200 rounds I put through it they all fed and breeched without a hitch. I had five FTF's but all had fed/breeched fine and been struck by the firing pin so again, it was an ammunition quality/consistency issue. I think that a moulded in guiding block ahead of the feed lips would cure the early nosing under of the rounds but to be fair they took very little breaking in before they worked well. Save to say I will also be acquiring some of these BDM mags when they become available  |
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Hello folks. I have also received a test mag and the weather down south is cooperating !! Went to the range this morning (the back yard) and promptly began. My first impression was good. The mag has a nice feel to it. . . not light and flimsy. Empty weight was 6.35 ounces and with 23 rounds of Federal HP's the weight was 8.95 ounces. As other have said, the corners are all nice and round and the finish is very good. I too, noticed some air bubbles (5 total) but they were small and did not extend to any edge to create weak spots. The mag inserted solidly into my Bushmaster XM-15 lower with no slop when latched. Very little movement fore and aft. (Appx. 1/32 inch) I was pleased that it dropped free with each press of the mag release. My CV22 upper is plain stock as received from CDNN and has appx. 1100 rounds through it .  I wanted this test to include commonly available ammo I had on hand so I used Federal Bulk Pack (Load #750), PMC Zappers, Winchester Dynapoints, Remington Thunderbolts, CCI Mini Mags, Aguila SE (Std Vel), PMC Moderators, Wolf MT, Winchester Xpert, and Federal Champions (Load #510).  I shot a total of 319 rounds. I had 2 FT Feed, 2 FT Fire and one OOB (Out-Of-Battery). One FT Fire was with the PMC Moderators (Not enough energy to properly cycle the action). The OOB was with the Remington Thunderbolts during rapid fire.  I should have known better with this ammo. It has given me problems in the past, but the BDM mag was working so well, I figured it was worth a try. The good news . . . No damage to the mag at all !!!!  It took it like a champ. I like the feed lips. They seem thick enough to handle this sort of abuse. The failures all seemed due to ammo except one fail to feed using the Winchester Xpert. The round didn't seem to nose-up to the feed ramp. This was the 6th round of 23 total. Not sure why it did this but the rest of the rounds went fine with no other problems. All-in-all, I think BD has really done their homework on this one. I'll be ordering as soon as they are available !! Good job folks  |
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I got a test mag from Dan for use in my original Victor Arms V-22 conversion upper. I received the mag Wednesday, and haven't made it to the range yet, but have several first impressions from handling/loading the mag: 1. I guess I was expecting black plastic, not clear. Not a big issue as I'm sure black will be along at some time, and the clear helped me with some observations. 2. The first 15 rounds of Federal Lightning weren't difficult to load, but by rd 16, it was getting to be an issue. Looking in from the side, at round 18, the rim of the bottom round (first one loaded) is no longer in contact with the follower. The more rounds I stuffed in the mag (could only get to 24), the more exaggerated this became..to the point that with 24 rounds loded into the mag, the CASE wasn't in contact with the follower any longer..just the lead of the bullet. Now it wasn't an extreem degree on angle necessary to lose contact of the brass on the follower, but it is very noticeable. Manually feeding rounds out at that point was difficult...don't know how it will be under regular cycling. Steve |
| I think I'm in love, or in trouble! Got the test mag, it was a tight fit in my lowers; but then they are 80% builds anyway so some scuffing in the mag well is to be expected. Some light polishing with fine sandpaper on the high spots and I went through 25 rounds of CCI Blazer faster than I can hen-peck this message. My loading tool is a piece of 1/4" wood dowel carved flat on two sides to fit between the feed lips, and it helps to work the cartridges up and down to get the kinks out of the spring as you are loading it. I'll test it on all the other .22LR ammo I have, but my trouble might be keeping myself in bullets. |
I too, could only get 24 rounds to load with the last 4 being rather difficult. I also noticed the gap between the follower and the bullet stack and would like to see a little more contact here , however I don't think it is a problem. The ammo seemed to feed fine whether there was 23 rounds or only 5. Below is a picture of how mine looked with 23 rounds.  |
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Well, the results for mine are a little bit less positive than the other shooters. My magazine would not feed Remington "Golden Bullet" bulk pack at all. 70 - 90 % jams. I tried Federal "red box" hollow points, jammed about 20% of the time. CCI Mini-mag copper jacketed solid point high velocity ammo runs about 90% through my test magazine. I also tried some odds and ends of other brands I had, all had significant feeding problems. All the jams were identical, the base of the cartridge does not fully come up all the way onto the face of the bolt, so when the bolt travels forward the cartridge is not parrallel to the bore and the round is forced in at a "tip up" angle, jamming the rifle. This rifle runs great with three different factory magazines. I can even run standard velocity ammo with good cycling, so I don't think that it is the rifle. However, to verify that it is not the rifle, I passed the magazine along to my friend in Tucson who also has a V-22. In my experience with other .22 autoloaders in the past, I have found that even a slight variation between two identical loking magazine can make one or the other not run right. For example I have four Butler Creek mags for my 10/22, and one is a jam-o-matic, even though it looks fine. Rimfire magazine are a notorious for being a pain in the ass to build. Based on the other reviewers experiences, and the quality of the product, I feel pretty confident in buying some of these when they become available. In fact, when can we expect to see these for sale? (Especially since you're hinting at other AR rimfire stuff too)  |
| Besides the AR-15 with a CZ upper or a Ciener kit, my other experiences with .22 caliber conversions were on M1911s. I found that you can cycle sub-sonic ammo if you put in a lighter strength hammer spring. Of course, you might have to swap it back to use centerfire, as the firing pin just dimples the primer. The CZ recoil springs aren't the problem, it's just that low velocity ammo doesn't have the power to blow the bolt back far enough to cock the hammer against the force of the hammer spring, and some of this stuff soots up the works fast. BDM mag fine with me! |
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Can't add much to the earlier reviewers above. Mine was as described, well made, well finished for a beta product. I'm hoping the future ones will be smoked or black. Initial impressions: Sticks out farther than an USGI mag. It's about as long as my USGI mags with the Magpul bumpers on the floorplate. My V22 is on an otherwise unservicable Hesse HAR-15 composite/plastic receiver (the buffer tube retaining spring hole is hogged out, preventing use with an upper that needs the buffer tube/spring, etc.) Magazine locks firmly in place with minimal wobble in the Hesse receiver. Ditto for my Stag Receiver. Magazine will NOT lock firmly in place in my Superior receiver (from AIM Surplus). I'll try to investigate why in the future. I'm planning on test firing it at an indoor range this coming week (I"m on vacation after today) with Subsonic, Standard Vel and Hi Vel rounds (I know, but I've had good luck with Std and Sub in my particular v22, and I have the ammo on hand.) I"m particularly interested in trying the CCI round ( the particular name escapes me at the moment) that has a longer than normal .22lr case) Also, my thanks to you all for the opportunity to participate in this test and for the magazine! |
At the rear of the CZV22 upper there is a captive pin that can move back and forth about 5/16 of an inch. When the CZ bolt is all the way to the rear it strikes this pin and pushes it to the rear and partially depresses the buffer and buffer spring in your ARs lower. I'm not sure if this meant to buffer the bolt from striking the rear of the receiver too hard or to provide a small bit of extra velocity in the forward direction when the bolt returns, but it does appear that the CZ V22 is meant to run with the buffer and buffer spring in the lower. When you manually charge the CZ you will very plainly feel the extra spring tension at the rear of the bolt movement. |
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Funny, I just found out that my upper is missing that pin. Not sure if I never got it back with the upper when I sent it back for repair, or if it fell out. Anyway, I just got back from the range testing the mag. I did some odd ball testing. I put 3-5 in and fired all of those off checking the last round feeding. That all went very well. The original mag that came with the upper, would never feed the last round. It would alway jam. so good job fixing that. Then I fully loaded the mag, and fired off the first few rounds. Or atleast I tried. If I loaded to 25, 26 or 27, the second round would jam just like the guy above saw with half his mag. It would crunch the casing just bellow the bullet. Since someone already had pics, I won't bother. If I only had 24 in the mag, they all fed fine to the bottom. Then I started having failures to what I thought was fully cycle. The trigger would not reset. I found it with the original mag, so I knew it was not the new one either. Now I see the pin is missing, and must have caused a problem. I too could not get the mag to seat with 27 in it. Other than the problem with the first 3 rounds, I felt the mag functioned fine. It dropped free, and had no other failures to feed. I tested it in the 2001 legp lower, RRA. I compared all functions to one of the metal 10 rd orignals. Thanks for the oportunity to test this for you. Hope this helps. Forgot to add, I did not try lubing up the mag, and I cycled about 100 rds before the upper started to malfunction. And to be honest I did not clean the upper from the last time I went out, a true field test so to speak. Didn't have time really if I wanted to make it out. But it was oiled up properly, and not gunked up so I don't think that caused any problems. |
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Ok, I finally got out to the range. Weapon: CZ V-22 22 lr upper on a RRA standard lower. Weapon Condition: cleaned and well lubricated, cleaned twice during testing. Mags: BDM 25 rd full size magazine, 10 round CZ magazine Ammunition: CCI Mini-Mag, Winchester Super X HP, Federal Game Shock, Federal Spitfire, Remington 22 Thunderbolt, S&B 22 lr REX, American Eagle, Winchester Super X, Federal Champion, Federal 36gr Value Pack. Results: The first 6 brands of ammo listed did not perform well. I had feeding and ejecting issues with all of them. Usually 3-6 times per mag. The Federal Spitfire was the worst, almost every round had issues including an OOB that shocked me when it happened. The last 3 brands listed did well with the standard Value Pack Federal being the hands down favorite of my rifle. Yay for me I guess. The magazine performed well after I finally got to the Federal ammo. I probably had shot about 250 rounds by this point. I tried 5 mags loaded to 25 rounds. It's possible but not recommended. It is hard to load past 20 rounds and the spring binds really bad after 20 rounds are loaded into the mag, even with the mag well lubed. This always caused me problems where I would have FTFs in the first several rounds. After testing the ammo I noticed that the top of the fed lips of the mag had some shallow gouges in it. I carefully filed down the top of the mag lips about .015" of an inch. This may have helped with the Federal cheap stuff but I'm not certain. I did try 2 mags of the previous ammo choices and still had issues with them. After I ran a mag of Federal Value Pack thru it and realized that this was promising, I cleaned the gun and mag again and set off to have some serious testing done. I only loaded 20 rounds into the mag the rest of the afternoon and had good success. Using the Federal cheap ammo I averaged 1 round per mag where the ejected brass would get hung up in the chamber and keep the next round from fully seating into the chamber, almost like a stovepipe. This I am sure is a gun problem and not a mag problem. I will try a reduced power hammer spring and new V22 springs soon as I can find where to order them. I am hopeful that this will solve my problem. Accuracy: using the cheap Federal I averaged 3" 5-shot groups at 50 yards. Overall: Not the great fix that I was looking for,but hey someone made mags for the CZ . Using the right ammo for the gun (and believe me CZ V-22s are damn picky) these mags work well. I'll definitely be picking up a half dozen as soon as they become available, along with some extra parts. I am sure that with some tinkering to my gun (which it seems all AR15 22s need no matter what conversion you use) I can get it close to 100% reliable.Thanks BDM for building us what we asked for. |
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Back to the "range" on Saturday. This time I brought two unbiased testers . . . my daughters (Age 12 and 6). The BDM mag ran fine with us using Federal Bulk and PMC Zappers. Unfortunately, that was the last of my Zappers  . We shot probably another 350 rounds and only had one FTFeed !!!! My 12-year-old was able to load the mag up to about the 18th round before it got too difficult.My feeling is that some of these uppers are having troubles due to either manufacturing tolerances or maybe some of them have not had the feed throat modification done.  I'll try to make a short video clip this week . . .if I can talk the 6-year-old into teaching me how to use the camera !  |
What is this mysterious elixir you speak of??? |
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got mine to the range, it was an interesting session lots of malfunction but I am not sure they were all the mags fault. So tomorrow I am going back and use a different lower. I only had about 200 rounds through this upper before testing and that was on a different lower federal Champion was a complete loss. lots of feeding issues, it was the only ammo that I tested that was not a hollow point. Remington yellow jackets was one of the best ate up 100 of those pretty good prob 2 not feeding per mag CCI stinger got results similar to results to the yellow jackets Remington sub sonic, these actually did real well they fed well but I had to use my finger to push the trigger forward after each round. this only happened w/ this ammo more to come Bill |
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Hi Everyone, Thanks for your detailed feedback! I have thus far received at least one test report from 11 of the 12 volunteers. The overall data is positive, but there are some things that concern me. Some of these issues I noticed myself when I tested these mags. Once we rule out any ammo and V-22 design related problems, there may still be some room for improvement. I will be speaking with Kevin of Black Dog Machine soon. He will be analyzing the test data and will make the final decision on whether or not to make any more changes before the mags go into live production. In the meantime, please feel free to keep the test reports coming. The more data, the better. Thanks again for your time and efforts. Happy Thanksgiving. Dan |
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I went to the range today with two of the CZ V-22's I had previously tested. One of these rifles with the RRA NM trigger functioned real good, the rifle with the standard trigger was not reliable. I cleaned and heavily lubed both rifles before going to the range. The temperature was 68 to 70 degrees with about 60 % humidity. I started with the V-22 which was the newest with approximatey 1500 rounds through it and the factory 10 round mag. The upper would encounter at least 1 or 2 problems on every mag. The rifle would either fail to completely extract causing a stove pipe jam or not go completely into battery and only click with no visible mark on the unfired case, The rifle appeared to be breaking in and was improving but still not reliable even with the 10 round mag. When I switched to the Aguilla ammo I started having a lot of failure to feed where the bullet was getting gouged as it was attempting to feed. I then put the the Colt lower with the RRA NM trigger on this upper. I started shooting the rifle with both the BDM mag and the factory mag. I was still having a lot of jams. I then started testing the Colt lower and RRA NM trigger with the upper which has been reliable. Again the rifle ran almost perfectly with Aguilla 40 grain SE and Fed 36 grain plated HP Bulk. While shooting the first upper I noticed a small gouge at the edge of the chamber near the extractor groove on the right side. I also observed the chamber opening had a sharp edge all around the opening. I decided to take the upper apart and I polished the gouge area and radiused the edge of the chamber opening. I also polished the feed ramp. I took some flitz polishing compound on a barrel swab and polished the inside of the chamber. I then reassembled the rifle onto the Colt lower with the Standard Colt trigger. I loaded 22 rounds into the mag. I took the rifle outside and fired the hole mag without a singe malfunction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think this was about the first time this rifle had made it through a hole mag let alone 22 rounds. I'd noticed a lot of bullets were being disfigured entering the chamber and jamming at the entry to the chamber. I always felt this upper had a tight chamber. I believe this upper will now be reliable. I'm going to try and obtain additional ammo and continue testing. I have always felt the majority of malfunctions were do to the rifle/ammo and not the BDM mag. I don't think this is an isolated to this particular upper. I noticed in one of IcarusY625 photos his chamber looked just like my upper. You can see the gouge next to the extractor groove on his upper. It also appears the chamber opening is not radiused. I think polishing this out and polishing the feed ramp can not hurt the upper but sure seems to helped in the functioning of my upper. I also noticed in another post where someone mentioned having work done on the chamber. The photos of IcarusY625 posted showed malfunctions similar to what I had seen. I'd suggest anyone having feed issues Examine the chamber. I believe the rough chamber could also be responsilble for some of the extraction problems. If the round sticks in the chamber it definately will hinder the next round feeding. I'll try to test this upper further this week with additional types if ammo.......I hope this helps some of you..........................Stay safe. |
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Well, I finally got to the range with the new mag after a necessary hiatus due to family circumstances. First, I must add that from the get-go the only concern I had about the V22 mag was the echo of what earlier posters had said re: the follower. I found it practically impossible to load more than 23 rounds into the mag. The rounds lost contact with the follower around the 10th cartridge being inserted into the mag, and it got further and further away with each subsequent cartridge. It appears that the more you load, the more the rounds get into a bind within the mag. This happens with the Ciener full body mags also, but not to the same degree as the V22 mag. Here is a pic... The V22 is on the left and the Ciener on the right. When I got to the range I had CCI Stingers, Rem. Subsonics, Federal Bulk box, and Aguilla subsonics. I should add that I have done quite a bit of modding to my V22 in the past to get it reliable with a wide variety of ammo. Mods are: Modded hammer spring, modded recoil spring, polishing of the bolt and ramp. Like I noted earlier, I could not load more than 23 rounds into my mag. With each of the above ammunition loads, I had the same problem each time. That problem was, that when loaded to 23 rounds, the spring wouldn't push the next round up quick enough to allow it to be stripped from the magazine. After manually cycling the bolt for the first three times, the mag worked perfectly. I ran 100 rounds of each of the above loads through my V22. After trying to load as many in as I could, I ended up loading only 20 rounds each subsequent time. From slow-fire to rapid-fire, I didn't have any mag related jams. I had to stop and quick-clean the action 3 times and re-lube but that was the extent of my malfunctions. I should add that this happens with the V22 factory mags too, so it is not a mag issue. After putting ~500 or so rounds through the mag, it did loosen up a bit, but not enough to overcome the follower problem. Loaded to 20 rounds, it functioned 99%. Loaded to more than 21 rounds, it malfunctioned 100% of the time. Overall, I am impressed with the mags. If the follower issue is ever worked out, I'd say that they are as perfect as they are gonna get. I personally am happy with them being 20 rounders, if that's what it takes to get 100% reliability. |
After my initial loading and feeding problems the mag ran well with high velocity and subsonics, all starting with 25 round loads. The impression I got was that there is basically a short 'running in' period which is not unusual with any mag. After that I had no problems with the mag, only ammo failures
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Ok, I've been playing with this mag almost all day now. I have gotten to the point where I can get all 27 in there. The only problem is that with the first 2 or 3 rounds, they won't chamber during a live fire. It goes like this: load to 27 rounds, charge the weapon, fire. The bolt ejects the spent round, but will not strip a live round from the mag. This usually happens with the first 2 or 3 rounds, then it works great on the remaining rounds. I'm gonna keep this guy loaded for a couple days and then try again. It is getting better with some breaking-in. If I had to guess, I'd say that it should be running close to 100% with 27 rounds within a couple more days of working with it. I'm definitely gonna have to buy some of these... 
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| I tried the V-22 upper today after working on the chamber. I was only able to shoot 1 mag through it the other day because it got dark. Today I loaded 27 Aguila 40 grain SE into the mag and let it sit for an hour before trying to shoot the upper. I had failure to feed until the mag was down to 22 rounds. This mag may start functioning with more than 22 rounds if I leave it loaded. The upper did fire the other 22 rounds of Aguila without a malfunction. I then loaded 22 rounds of 36 grain Federal bulk. During this mag of 22 I had four stove pipe jams. This is better so I again loaded 22 rounds of Federal. This time I lubed the dry mag with a couple of drops of CLP. I then lubed the guide rails on the recoil springs that guides the bolt on the V-22 upper. I then shot two mags of 22 rounds of 36 grain Federal without a malfunction. As I felt before I believe the majority of my malfunctions have been do to the upper and not the mag. I can't say if the mag will ever reliably feed more than 22 rounds. I'm going to load the mag and let it sit loaded for about 24 hours and see if it makes any difference any how many rounds will work. As it is the mag with 22 sure beats only having 10 rounds. |
got out for a second trip I have prob 600 rounds through the mag now this trip I stuck to the high velocity stuff mostly cci. like most of you say, I can get about 27 rds in the mag but the 1st 5 or so wont feed, after that you might get 2 feeding failiars peer mag.I did put another mag of sub sonics through and it does not set the trigger 75% of the time w/ factory mags I dont have this prob |
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I'm a bit confused as to how not re-setting the trigger can be a magazine issue. Unless the recoiling bolt is dragging across the top of the feed lips in which case it would leave witness marks on the lips and be apparent. Isn't it more likely that this is sub-sonic ammo unable to overcome the recoil and/or hammer springs? When my V22 was new it wouldn't cycle sub-sonics at all. However, after a few thousand rounds I was given some Eley pistol and it had no problems at all. I tried sub-sonics again it they now cycled fine. A while later I fitted a JP trigger, with a lighter hammer and lighter hammer spring. The trigger was much improved, but I got a lot of light strikes and had to re-install the factory hammer spring to ensure reliable ignition. Another couple of thousand rounds later on a whim I tried the JP hammer spring again and found that it worked fine. I now have a V22 that cycles well with high velocity and sub-sonics, only disliking heavily wax-lubed rounds. What I'm getting at is it may be that some problems attributed to the BDM mags may be variables in the test guns and ammunition. When I did my testing there was an initial capacity and feed problem that pretty much disappeared after the first four loads (and a little silicon lube in the mag). My test mag currently cycles (25 round loads), both high velocity and sub-sonics with a high degree of reliability.
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| I left the BDM V-22 mag loaded for 24 hours with 25 rounds of 40 grain Aguila SE ammo. I took it out and tried to shoot it today. The first round in the chamber fired but the round in the mag would hang up and not rise to be picked up by the bolt. I'd shake the rifle and the round would pop up so I could manually feed the round. The same malfunction happened on round two. On rounds 3 and 4 the bullet did not feed but was caught by the bolt as it tried to go up the feed ramp. The last 21 rounds functioned fine. I'm going to clean the mag and spray some Johnsen's silicone lubricant into the mag. I'll let the mag dry and reload the mag with 25 rounds of Federal. The Aguila's are hanging up in the mag body and I can't tell if its the pressure of the mag spring or the rounds just aren't staying stacked properly and dragging on there way up the mag. The top of the mag is getting pretty black from the gun powder and its difficult to see. |
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I Cleaned and lubed the BDM mag and left it loaded over night with 25 rounds of Aguila SE 40 grain round nose. I lubed the mag with Silicone spray. I took the mag out today and fired it in 3 different rifles. The temperature was 40 to 48 degrees. I fired the mag which had been left loaded from yesterday. I shot the rifle which I had worked on the chamber and feed ramp. The rifle had a failure to feed on the 3rd round. The nose of the bullet caught on the feed ramp. The rest of the mag functioned. I loaded the next mag to 25 rounds. The mag was loading a lot easier and fired perfect till round 17 where the round failed to feed. Previously I had not been able to get the mag to function with more than 22 rounds. I then switched uppers and fired 25 rounds in a different upper with a double star lower and RRA NM trigger. All 25 rounds functioned perfect in semi and rapid fire. In all I fired 20 mags of mostly 25 rounds in the three different uppers today. Overall the silicone lube and leaving the mag loaded seemed to do the trick. I shot a couple of mags with WW wildcats which the rifles did not like. I had several malfunctions but believe the ammo was the culprit. I shot Federal American eagle 38 grain HP with good results in all three uppers. We also shot WW Dynapoints, WW Super X 40 grain round nose, CCI Mini Mags, Federal 36 grain HP bulk and T 22. Any malfunctions we encountered seemed to be ammo related except for the CCI Mini Mags. For some reason two of the three uppers just did not want to feed the mini mags. The bullet was blunt and the round tended to nose dive and hit the feed ramp. The brass case would then deform and the brass didn't seem to be as strong as other brands of brass. I experienced at least 3 to 4 failures to feed out of 25 rounds of mini mags. One of the three uppers functioned perfect with the mini mags. I can't explain it but that is what happened. The Federal 36 grain HP and the Aguila 40 grain SE were by far the most reliable. If the we got any malfunctions with the Federal 36 grain is was a failure to completely extract. I personally am satisfied with the BDM mag as is and would not hesitate buying them. It did take quite awhile to get the mag broke in. I did clean the mag once today after firing about 16 full mags. This was when we were having trouble with the CCI Mini Mags. Cleaning the mag made no difference with the Mini Mags. We also did some accuracy testing and loaded the mag with 10 rounds. We fired 25 mags of 10 rounds with only one failure to feed malfunction (a CCI Mini Mag). I believe there is more variables in the ammo and the individual rifle than there is in the mag I have been testing. I just hope Dan doesn't want the mag back. I'm not sure my friend will let me have the mag back without a fight. |
VASCAR2: You are right about the individual variables in the V-22 uppers (and ammo). Everyone should keep in mind that these Czech made V-22's were not built to the same tight military specifications that we are accustomed to in our own USA made AR-15 uppers. Even the smallest variations in the slope of the feed ramps or the width of a chamber can make a big difference. Don't worry, I don't want the mags back. They are a gift to all of you that helped with the testing. I expect to have some updates for you within the next few days. Thanks, Dan |
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Finally got to get in some range time. Fired a total of 350rnds of Fed. bulk, and CCI mini-mags. I had no failures that can be attributed to the magazine, with the possible exception of 2 "failure to feed". These "failures" were with 27 rnd in the mags. I loaded the mags trying to get the mag to fail to load the first rnd. It did not fail on the first, but did fail to load the 3rd rnd. I would consider this more my fault than the mags. All other funtioning was flawless. I used no lube in the mags. Just loaded, and fired. I noticed no abrasion/rubbing on the feed lips, or any other indication of fitting issues. Also, the more the mag was loaded the easier it became to load. Might have just been me A seperate test was conducted to see if a "reduced" main spring would still load/strip rnds from the magazine. This involved the removal of one of the two "op rod springs". The results were positive. I had no magazine related "failure to feed". All rounds stripped from the mag. I did how ever have an OOB.  No harm was done to the mag in any way. I suspected that an OOB was possible since the rounds might not be properly seated/chambered upon detination. Lesson learned.I'll will try and ad to this post as time permits. I would like to say thank you to CCS and BDM for all their good work. Thanks  |
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I got a little range time with my test mag, and it has some issues, but nothing that can't be overcome by tweaking the mag design a bit. Besides the loading issue (have to fight it to get more than 18 rounds in it, and can't get more than 24 rounds in it), and the follower contact issue (as in loss of contact between follower and rounds as more and more rounds are loaded), I had a few feed issues with 19-24 rounds in the mag (Federal Lightning and some Premium Match) but once I got to approx 16-18 rounds left in the mag, it worked fairly well, with only the occasional feed related to shaving the lower portion of the lead bullet just a bit during feeding. I attribute this problem to the test mag, as when I used three different 10rd CZ mags as a control, the same problem did not occur. Steve (as individual, not a manufacturer's rep for this test) |
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Finally got some range time in. Unfortunately I spent much of last week (From wednesday till today) in the hospital with chest pains (All is well now.) I've difficulty getting more than 22 round in the mag... and will only reliably strip the rounds with less than that. No problems with Win. Wildcat, Thunderbolts and Federal hi-vel rounds. Had feeding issues with the Czech 22 (heavily lubed... ) Seems to be a bit smoother the more I used it. I was only able to get 400 rounds through it today. Hope to get back out this week at lunchtime for more plinking. |
| I myself have had very little trouble with all kinds off ammo and feel stongly that we got this nailed. I am looking into closing the gap between the front of the mag to the feed ramp before we run production. I think we could be in production in a week or two, the feedback looks good. Im also going to be adding a more generouse lead in on the follower and bottom spring keeper so the spring doesnt bind, thats the reason they get tight when full. I will be in arizona at the SAR show this sat and sun, if anybody will be there look me up. |
| I think it would be a good idea if you could close the gap between the mag and the feed ramp a little. In 2 of the 3 uppers I tested the CCI Mini Mags did not always make the jump up the feed ramp but instead were driven into the end of the feed ramp and jammed. This could have been because of a different rim diameter or bullet overall length on the CCI. I did notice the CCI had a blunt HP nose which hindered the feeding compared to other rounds. I didn't think to measure the gap between the mag and feed ramps on the 3 uppers I had. I have a feeling there would be a few thousandths difference between the upper that did work and the two that didn't. The only feed issues I had with the BDM mag after it broke in was with the CCI Mini Mag. When I first started testing the BDM I had a few occasions where the round would nose dive into the mag instead of feeding up the ramp. This issue went away after about a few hundred rounds. Overall I'm vary grateful your bringing this mag and the ciener mag to market. I hope it is a profitable venture for you. |
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This is my only concern with these mags, but I would emphasise that I too found that the problem seemed to go away once the mag was run in a bit. This is how SGC cured the round nose diving issue, compared to the BDM test mags:     ..and you don't want to know how much SGC mags cost.....
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I don't want this to sound wrong, I am very happy to be doing this testing, and if nothing more comes of it, I will still be happy to buy a mag that lets me load 24, but will you be sending out the improved followers to us to test again? I got a new pin made, so my set up is working again. |
Nice try....
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the 'area' (feed lips at the front/side?)but I don't think anything needs to be higher, it's purely closing the gap to prevent the chambering round nose diving under (although I think the gap is too small for that now) or more likely, head on into the edge of the feed ramp and sticking there. Of course the profile of the ammunition also has a bearing but my experience of using the pressed steel Ceiner mags in the V22 were that the @6mm gap caused frequent stoppages of this type. I cured it by fitting a feed block onto the mag that stopped the round nose diving: When inserted the feed ramp sits on the shelf you can see and the channelled block fills the gap. Works a treat. The dilemma is whether it is worth making such a modification to your mags at this stage as they function reliably anyway, and any early stoppages of this type only seem to occur whilst the mag is being run in. Once it has loosened up a little the problem seems to disappear. At least that is my experience testing one of the beta samples. Whichever way you go it will still be a good product. |
I wouldn't do anything more than simply closing the gap. I don't want to solve one problem, only to create another. |
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That is interesting, I will have to compare when I get home. the angle on the BDM is much larger than on the other mag. I will have to compare to the one that came with the upper. It looks like you could extend the follower a bit forward if you just put a skinny piece up, that way no molding changes have to be made to the existing mag body. Also if angle makes a difference you could drop that a bit too. But this only seems to make a difference for the first 3 or 4 rounds. After that it feeds fine. |
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Put another 230 rounds through the "mill". This time Winchester Xperts and Federal AM22. No problems noted. The reference I made earlier about the feed throat mods, was concerning some of these uppers that had been re-worked after leaving the factory. I can't seem to find the thread on this, but someone did mention that the ones sold through CDNN had all been done (which is where mine is from). Perhaps someone can search and give us a link to the old thread. |
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So I compared the factory cast mag vs the bdm. They both seem to have the same angle when sitting in the gun. One thing I noted odd is that when you pull back the charging handle, on the factory one, the round moves forward and pops up a bit. This maybe why the last round always jammed on me. Also the factory one has almost no gap between the feed ramp and the mag. |
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It looks like the V-22 mags will be going into live production within the next few days. Kevin of BDM informed me last night that he will be closing the gap between the feed lips and feed ramp by approx 1/8" and will also lift up the radius under the nose of the round about 1/8". Kevin and I are confident that these minor modifications will only improve the performance of the mags and will not create new problems. I'm sure Kevin will be happy to respond to those of you that might have any remaining questions or concerns about the design of the mag. I expect to have he first batch available for purchase in about two weeks. They will be available in black and smoke, with milspec gray and clear to follow later. I will post another update as we get closer to the release date. In the meantime, please feel free to post or e-mail any questions you might have for me. Thanks again for your patience and support. Dan |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - BDM CZ V-22 Mag Testing - UPDATE (Page 1 of 2)
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