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Posted: 6/27/2006 7:43:22 AM EDT
| I have a new Ciener kit for my AR. It will extract, but will not completely eject the spent casings when a magazine is inserted. However, when you insert the mag, chamber a round, and take the mag out and then fire, the casing ejects without any problems. I am using the ammo that Ciener suggests, and I have also tried several other brands just to see if ammo was the problem. It has got to be a mag related issue. Does anyone have any ideas? |
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IIRC...the left feed lip is also the ejector. Insert a magazine (unloaded!!!) and run the bolt back and forth across it several times. Basically, rack the charging handle until you lose interest. Remove the magazine and look for shiney spots on the lips. If you spot one, VERY CAREFULLY stone or Dremel a SMALL amount of material from the feed lip. Coat with a magic marker and repeat until the bolt no longer drags. GO SLOW!! Be sure to maintain the correct spacing beyween the lips or you will come up with a whole new set of problems. There was a big article in SAR a while back that detailed a lot of trouble shooting for these kits. Someone also posted most of it on here. I also HIGHLY recommend getting the recoil spring kit from Lakeside Machine. That fixed a lot of the issues I was having. |
| I don't see that the lips are hitting the bolt, but I will keep playing with the mag. The ejector is not the left feed lipof the mag. It is on the left rail that the bolt runs on. . Thanks for the tip on the recoil spring, I read about it before, but couldn't remember who made it. I am ordering one right now. |
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Here's my canned reply taken from a post by JAC himself as well as info via Eric from Lakeside. "However, not only do the feed lips need to be centered, set to the correct gap and the mag adapter body be spread to tighten up the fit in the lower, the feed lips also need to be checked for the correct height. I found my magazines needed a "little taken off the top" to work flawlessly. I checked this by putting a loaded magazine in the lower and pulling the bolt back. I checked how high a round was sticking up and how much the bolt was contacting this first round. I found that the magazine lips could be reduced by quite a bit. All you need to make sure of is have enough cartridge rim/bolt contact to ensure a round will be stripped from the magazine. Theory>>The lower the feed lips, the less chance of them becoming the ejector................... Whenever the case is caught up in the top of the receiver, between the charging handle and the recoil spring tube of the bolt it is ONLT one thing - think about it - what causes the spent cast to rotate out the ejection port of semi and full auto firearms?...it's coming into contact with the EJECTOR!...it then ROTATES around the extractor and vectors out the ejection port. If the feed lips of the magazine get into the rearward path of the spent case THEY become the ejector!...sending the case up rather than out to the right. Due to use and abuse the upper sheet metal frame of the mags becomes smaller or distorted allowing the mag to "flop" around left and right in the mag well and the feed lips get into the spent case’s path. Just look at the front corner of the rear lips and SEE the brass marks on the lip!!! We use a piston ring expander pliers to widen the frame at it's 4 corners so there is a light drag as the mag is inserted so as to limit it's "flopping". Other thing that happens, is the shooter holds onto the mag while shooting causing it to sit too HIGH again putting the feed lips into the spent casing's path. Feed lips are to be PARALLEL, CENTERED in the upper frame, rear lips .215"- .005 wide...PERIOD. Front lips .250"+ .005. Remember PARALLEL and IN THE CENTER." HTH |
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Anyone have a fix for this? Most rounds will feed in such a way that the bullet is bent right where it meets the case. The nose of the bullet is marred as though it is striking something while going into battery, causing it to be bent and it jams at an angle in the chamber. 7 out of 10 rounds will do that no matter the ammo type. Haven't seen anyone comment that the Lakeside spring will fix that issue. I've tried adjusting the lips to allow the round to angle into battery differently, but that didnt help. I'm thinking the adapter does not allow the mag to fit in to the magwell properly. I cant remember of the bullet is marred on the top or the bottom/ bent up or down. |
On my unit I cleaned up the feed ramp on the chamber adapter. In order to reduce the gas blow by around the chamber adapter stack two 9/16" X 13/16" o-rings inside of the locking lug area of the barrel. When the chamber insert is assembled it seals itself inside of the chamber. I think this reduces its movement as the bolt slams into it & also helps to hold the whole unit more securely. Another trick, if yours fits loosely, try putting a plastic or metal shim between the buffer and the rear plate of the kit. This loads the buffer spring a bit which in turn pushes the kit forward into the chamber and helps hold everything in alignment better. Does make it a pain to close the upper tho. I would think anything you can do to minimize the movement of the kit will improve feeding. |
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I just ordered a ciener kit from Brownells yesterday. Is there any chance that this kit can damage my AR, or cause it to wear unnaturally? This kit almost seems too good to be true. The idea of shooting .22 through my AR is really appealing. There has to be some kind of a down side right? |
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I had Ciener 30 round mags with my V22 and they were a nightmare. They needed so much work to get them to function anywhere near reliably it was incredible. They will not hold 30 rounds, more like 20-25 if you're lucky. You need to rub off the internal coating or they just bind up (not easy on a pressed steel mag you can't take apart. Wire wool on a variety of bendy sticks and lots of time and patience) They were so loose in the mag well that I had to make up some shoes that I bonded and pinned to the back edge of the spacer to hold them square. In the V22 I noticed the rounds also had to jump a huge gap from the front of the feed lips to the bottom of the feed ramp, during which they would not infrequently point off in all directions, causing stoppages. I fixed this by making and bonding a shaped aluminium block in front of the feed lips for the round to run across to the feed ramp. After all this and much judicious fiddling with feed lips, one is good for 20 rounds reliable use and the other I wouldn't trust with more than 15. I don't trust either in comps. However, after much winging and whining from UK V22 owners, Southern Gun here in the UK now supply 10 and 22 round CNC machined mags. These are excellent and I have never had problems with them other than letting them get too dirty (my fault obviously). I can commend them to V22 owners, and see no reason why they shouldn't work with the Ciener kit. You will, of course have to brace yourself for UK prices 7 shipping (could probably buy yourself a used AR!) |
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IcarusY625, I'm wondering if you had received some poorly made Ciener mags? I have four 30 round Ciener mags and the only problem was the feed lips. I had to file them down to prevent ejection problems. All four mags cycle great with 30 rounds loaded. Click on the link to see four 30 mags fired in 25 seconds: Ciener Conversion Kit When did you purchase your mags? Mine are approximately four years old. Dan |
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My Ciener kit was delivered by UPS, today. I ordered it direct from Ciener, and paid with a check. Ciener's website states that they will hold the order for two weeks, to allow the check to clear. According to my bank, the check cleared my account 6 weeks ago. If/when I order additional mags, I'll order them from Brownell's or some other dealer, not direct from Ciener. |
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Did a little plinking to try out the new Ciener. Out of 100 rounds of Rem subsonic, no failures to eject, and only two failures to feed that appear to be slightly out of spec ammo (wouldn't completely chamber). Who sells the 30 round mags, other than direct from Ciener? |
I had my mags new with the gun a little under four years ago. As I stated, I couldn't even get 30 rounds in them and the spring and follower would bind really badly until I removed all the finish from the inside. They were rubbish and I was really fed up for a long time as the ten rounders just weren't suffcient, even in semi-auto only. Since the higher capacity ones have been available these guns are starting to make their mark in dynamic competitions. |
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Well I put the kit together and decided to not put it down until I figured out what was going on. For one the chamber could be polished which I did not do yet. The second, is that the rear feed lips were holding the rear of the round, while the nose was attempting to go into battery. The rough finish on the Remington bullet was dragging on the chamber causing a jam. I opened up the rear set of feed lips just at the front by the gap so that the rear of the round came out of the feed lips sooner, just as the nose entered battery. The result is that the round is free of the mag lips just as the neck of the round is entering the chamber. This worked great with CCI Stingers with near 100% reliability. The Remingtons are up to 60-80%. Will there be any problem with shooting only the CCI Stingers, since I dont shoot more than once a month, maybe a few hundred rounds at a time? |
| On mine the extractor was putting to much pressure when it went into battery. I had to file just a little off where it slids against the barrel, where it graps the case. I also had trouble with a converted 10/22 mag to a 10/17hmr. Both would only shoot 2-3 rounds then jam. Since then they both are 100%. |
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