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1/11/2004 7:13:38 PM EDT
I mean why spend the $$$$ for a new upper, when you can get a 22 cal. conversion.

I use the ATCHISSON 22 cal conversion in my COLT M4 and have not had any trouble out of it going on 2 years and god only knows how many rounds i have put down range.

Got mine at Knob-Creek $150.00 for the unit and $25.00 for X-mag(10rnd), it is all steel no plastic at all.

Sorry if i knew how to post a pick i would show you what it looks like.
1/11/2004 7:17:50 PM EDT
[#1]
The rate of barrel twist would be the reason I did.
1/11/2004 7:25:04 PM EDT
[#2]
.22LR nees a 1/16 barrel twist.  A bushy M4, with a 1/9, is way to fast, so is much less accurate.

If you just want a short range plinker, then by all means.... enjoy.
1/12/2004 4:15:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Here are some reasons:

- correct barrel for accuracy (1/16 twist).
- correct barrel (inside diameter) to avoid build-up of lead (especially important when running full auto).
- don't have to be concerned with gas port filling with lead.
- Kuehl upper does not use chamber insert so it gives you a shorter barrel in appearance.  M4 style looks closer to original

The reasons above may, or may not, be important to some people.  It's just a matter of preference and how much you're willing to spend.  

Here's my Kuehl dedicated upper:

[img]http://home.netcom.com/~brownhen/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/m4a1.jpg[/img]
1/12/2004 8:54:20 AM EDT
[#4]
Does Kuehl have a website?
1/12/2004 1:15:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Does Kuehl have a website?
View Quote


[url=http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/]Kuehl Precision Firearms[/url]
1/12/2004 2:34:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Dan0341,
Where did you get the 22lr Orlite mag?
If you made it, can you give us some details?
Thanks.
1/12/2004 3:19:01 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm looking into building a .22lr AR for my wife.  By a dedicated upper is cheaper than buy the Ciener kit plus barrel, upper reciever and other parts.  Just my $0.02.
1/12/2004 3:26:02 PM EDT
[#8]
BTW, there is no .22lr Orlite mag.  Dan's probably using a .22lr mag insert like the ones made by Colt.  
1/12/2004 3:39:42 PM EDT
[#9]
I believe Dan is using a mag body attached to a Ceiner mag body at the base of the "fat" part of the Ceiner.  I've heard of KKF doing something like that...

I got mine for accuracy and I never have to sweat putting .22 down expensive, well kept .223 barrels designed for precision shooting...

Now I have a practice match upper that doubles as a great small game upper and plinker.  I just ordered 2500 more rounds!  Its a flat top so versatility is maxed out. I have the carry handle, a red dot/BUIS setup and 2.5-10X optic.

Fun meter is pegged. If only I could afford an M16 lower!

small price to pay for alot of piece of mind.
1/12/2004 6:46:36 PM EDT
[#10]
M4-guy,
You can modify the Ciener mag to fit in an Orlite mag.  Here's what I did: I Cut the Orlite feed lips off matching the same angle of the Ciener mag. You need to "sandwich" the Ceiner mag body between layers of cardboard. The layers of cardboard must be cut to make a TIGHT fit inside the Orlite mag body. You can use a couple strips of duc tape to keep the cardboard aligned as you insert everything into the Orlite mag. I like using cardboard as it will not trap moisture against the Ciener mag. This works extremely well with 30 round Ciener mags. The 10 round mags don't fit as tight, but it does work well. I didn't mind cutting these Orlite mags as they were only $2.50 a piece from Knob Creek, April 2002.

To take it one step further, I wanted to see if I liked the idea of attaching two mags together. I had some para-cord and decided to try it. It works extremely well. I didn't do this for rapid mag changes. I did this for convenience when I carry them. I have a piece of wood between the mags. I then wrapped the wood with a piece of non skid shelf liner (from Lowes). The paracord makes it tight and there is no movement. It's not permanent and only takes about a minute to unwrap.

Click on the link if you'd like to see an mpeg of it. [url]http://cx224.tripod.com/[/url]  Keep in mind that if bandwith is exceeded, you'll have to check back later.

Dan

[img]http://home.netcom.com/~brownhen/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/m16-22wmags.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/opforstuff/mgshoots/june03Peidmont/NiceM1622.jpg[/img]
1/13/2004 10:45:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
.22LR nees a 1/16 barrel twist.  A bushy M4, with a 1/9, is way to fast, so is much less accurate.

If you just want a short range plinker, then by all means.... enjoy.
View Quote


Ever shoot a 40gr round out of one of the aguila 1/9.5 twist barrels?(i have) less accurate it is not. That wouls be like saying a 55gr .223 is less accurate out of a 1/9 twist barrel than a 1/12 twist barrel, and thats just not true.

1/13/2004 11:44:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Dan,
Thanks for the info.  Very interesting.  You must have that cardboard packed in pretty tightly to keep the Ciener mag secure.  I have an old USA mag that's just waiting to be sacrifice for something like this.  I'll try your method with it.
1/13/2004 3:10:49 PM EDT
[#13]
M4-guy,
the cardboard and the Ciener mag is very tight going into the Orlite mag.  So tight that you really have to push on it.  It should be a tight fit side to side and front to back.  The Orlite mags swell a bit once it has been inserted.  I really have to pull on the mag to get it out.  There's a lot of trial and error at first.  You'll have to experiment and it will take time to get it right. It's not a quick job.  

Dan
1/15/2004 9:05:22 AM EDT
[#14]
Dan,
Thanks to you and Mr. Kuehl, I've decided to go with a dedicated M4 upper for my next build.  I had originally wanted to go with a convertible 1:12 bbl (a la XM177), but after looking at Kuehl Precision's barrels, and checking over my spare parts, I was convinced.  Stripped 22lr barrels are less than $200, and the only other parts I need to buy are a front site base and handguard cap.  Oh, and I'd have to send my Ciener kit in for conversion - $20.
1/15/2004 2:03:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Even the cost of a conversion seems excessive to me. I really like my AR but I can buy another rifle for a lot less than a new upper. Kind of expensive considering.
1/15/2004 2:03:49 PM EDT
[#16]
M4-guy,
Sounds like an excellent way to go.  Rick is a pleasure to deal with and his products are outstanding.  You'll have to post some pics when you get it together.  

Dan
1/16/2004 8:58:24 AM EDT
[#17]
M4-guy,
Don't forget the barrel nut & delta ring.  You should be able to modify the kit yourself.  All you have to do is grind off the hooks that hold the chamber adapter on.  Flat file or Dremel should do it.
1/16/2004 11:01:36 AM EDT
[#18]
I just bought a Ciener Kit recently.  Question for all, can't you prevent the leading problem by only shooting copper plated ammo?
1/16/2004 11:09:04 AM EDT
[#19]
It might help, since you won't have the waxy lube build-up, but I think you'll still get some leading.

You'll also have the gas tube blowing all sorts of powder residue, etc. all over the inside of your upper.  
1/16/2004 2:03:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
M4-guy,
Don't forget the barrel nut & delta ring.  You should be able to modify the kit yourself.  All you have to do is grind off the hooks that hold the chamber adapter on.  Flat file or Dremel should do it.
View Quote


I already have them in my spare parts box, along with the upper, charging handle, handguards, and flash hider.

Is it just a matter of removing the chamber insert?  I could do that and keep $20 in my wallet.  Thanks.
1/16/2004 2:21:16 PM EDT
[#21]
It's more than just removing the insert, as you have to remove the hooks so that you can get it onto the barrel w/o spreading it (there isn't room in the upper to spread it).  The modifications are described on his [url=http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/KPF%2022%20upper%20faqs.htm]FAQ page[/url], about halfway down.  If you can handle that, you can save the $20.  Or if you don't have the kit already, you can probably get the kit from him already modified.
1/22/2004 8:41:46 AM EDT
[#22]
"Ever shoot a 40gr round out of one of the aguila 1/9.5 twist barrels?(i have) less accurate it is not. "

Yeah, I have a 10/22 specially modified with a 1/9in twist barrel.  It shoots 1/2inch groups at 25yds with 40grain sub sonic

[b]That, however, is very missleading as at about 40yds groups begin to open up with a couple rounds just deciding to fly 2-4 inches out of the group. (the rounds are spinning wildly and all semblence of accuracy is lost past about 80yds.[/b]

same story for high vel 40grain

I originally intended for it to be shot with Aguila SSS only, but I never could find a case of that and I eventually gave up.  (I had a case on order from one website, and after 3 months I called back and they said that they had the better part of a brick, and were waiting on the rest. I cancelled the order.) A case is a slow thing to put together a box at a time. maybe someday a reliable source will arrive that can actually put together a case of SSS. untill then I have the worlds least accurate heavy barreled custom 10/22.
1/29/2004 10:23:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
"Ever shoot a 40gr round out of one of the aguila 1/9.5 twist barrels?(i have) less accurate it is not. "

Yeah, I have a 10/22 specially modified with a 1/9in twist barrel.  It shoots 1/2inch groups at 25yds with 40grain sub sonic

[b]That, however, is very missleading as at about 40yds groups begin to open up with a couple rounds just deciding to fly 2-4 inches out of the group. (the rounds are spinning wildly and all semblence of accuracy is lost past about 80yds.[/b]

same story for high vel 40grain

I originally intended for it to be shot with Aguila SSS only, but I never could find a case of that and I eventually gave up.  (I had a case on order from one website, and after 3 months I called back and they said that they had the better part of a brick, and were waiting on the rest. I cancelled the order.) A case is a slow thing to put together a box at a time. maybe someday a reliable source will arrive that can actually put together a case of SSS. untill then I have the worlds least accurate heavy barreled custom 10/22.
View Quote



I've never had a problem with that(degrading accurecy) from shooting the 40gr Hvel rounds out of a 10/22 with a 1/9.5 twist barrel. I don't own the gun a buddy does. Shoots just as well at 100 as it does at 25, 50 or anywhere in between.


By the way I don't know where yer at but I got a case of that stuff. I just get it from a local shop.
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