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Posted: 12/16/2002 8:38:02 PM EDT
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Hi. I'm new to the world of AR's and .22 conversions. I've been reading up on a lot of previous posts and still have a few questions that don't seem to be able to find coherant answers from previous posts. Here goes: 1. So far, I've figured that there are DPMS, Kuehl, Fulton Armory, Colt, and Kurt's Custom complete uppers available. I've also discerned that some of these use proprietary (DPMS) and some use Ciener's conversion kits (all others). I don't know if the Colt conversion is still made. And I'm very confused about higher capacity mags for non-Ciener kits. I found one post that mentioned someone had gotten ATF approval to basically jury-rig existing 20-30 round .223 mags to fit .22s. If anyone has any light on that, I'm all ears. 2. Prices seem to go all over the place, from $140 for just the Ciener kit to $500+ for certain configurations of uppers. However, is it really worth while to get a dedicated upper? I mean, will the leading in the barrel be that bad by just shooting .22's out of the .223 barrel? 3. What sort of expertise would one need to construct a conversion package on their own? So far, I'd figure the Ciener kit, a regular upper receiver, and a barrel/handguard assembly chambered in .22, which may or may not be easy to find. Plus the required little bits of metal for adjustments in various places inside the receiver. 4. Since I don't know much about regular .22 rifles, is the accuracy of any particular kit better than the others and how are they when compared to a regular dedicated .22 rifle (which is $$$ cheaper)? Sorry if some of these seem to be newb questions, but I've gotten very confused reading all the previous posts. Thanks. |
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[url=http://www.22lrconversions.com/atch-pg.htm]Ciener[/url] is the only kit currently in production. Colt used to make one, and I think Olympic did too. The Army and Air Force each had their own version of the M-261 kits. Ciener is the only one that ever had a hi-cap magazine, but the supply of pre-bans has run out and the price is up to $100+ for the 30-rounders. All of the others had 10-round mags or 10-round inserts for GI .223 mags. There's a limited [url=http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/yourwebpage.msnw]conversion kit guide[/url] at the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site. Price for the Ciener is right around $140 with 1 10-round mag and $25 each for 10-round mags. I think GI & Colt units are similarly priced when they're available. [url=http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/showprod.cfm?&DID=90&CATID=507&ObjectGroup_ID=1243]DPMS[/url] makes an upper that comes complete with their own bolt. Around $400--good price if you want that configuration (16" flat-top w/no iron sights). IIRC it uses Colt mags. [url=http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/1131.htm]Kurt's Kustom(KKF)[/url], [url=http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/]Keuhl Precision[/url], [url=http://www.accuracyspeaks.com/22lrar15.htm]Accuracy Speaks[/url], [url=http://www.compasslake.com/22uppers.htm]Compass Lake(CLE)[/url], and probably some others make .22 uppers that use the kits as the bolt. CLE uses the military kits. I think everyone else uses the Ciener kits, except maybe Accuracy Speaks can use either. Prices range from under $400 to nearly $1000 (plus the kit in most cases). [url=http://www.fulton-armory.com/GEN_II.htm#CompanionUpper]Fulton Armory[/url]'s upper I think uses the Ciener kit too. Most will make an upper in whatever configuration you want. [url=http://www.leitner-wise.com/pages/LW1511.htm]Leitner-Wise[/url] supposedly makes a .22 upper of their own design. And they supposedly have ATF approval to make 25-round inserts for pre-ban .223 mags. They generated a lot of interest here this spring then kinda disappeared. All of the above uppers use a .22LR barrel with the correct bore size and rifling twist. Kurt uses the chamber adapter but a special barrel extension so you can't put in a .223 bolt. AFAIK everyone else modifies the kit to attach directly to the barrel w/o an adapter. Accuracy would be comparable to a regular .22 rifle--OK to excellent depending on the quality of the barrel, etc. Reports I've seen tend to about 1" or a little less at 50 yards, which is about what I get with my Marlin bolt-action. That's for uppers on the <$500 end. Accuracy with just the kit isn't so good because the .223 bore is a couple thousandths bigger than the .22LR bore. In my experience we're talking 4 MOA or so. I haven't had a real problem with leading, but I have heard lots of people say you should shoot some .223s every brick of .22LR or so to clean out the gas port. My main issue with the .22 kit is that the gas port blows gases back into the upper and that gets the inside of the upper (and the kit) [i]very[/i] dirty. Assembling your own? I think all of the "custom" smiths making uppers will sell just a barrel, so if you can assemble a regular AR you can assemble a .22 AR. But from the pricing I did, unless you already have some of the parts lying around you're probably better off letting Kurt or Keuhl build the upper for you anyway. I figured I'd have as much in the parts as the upper cost, plus tools, time, etc. Another option, especially if you have parts lying around, is to have a .223 barrel relined to .22LR by [url=http://www.american-manufacture.com/]American Manufacturing[/url] for $80. Just be extra careful that a .223 doesn't get chambered into it as the undersize bore is a serious bore obstruction. Also, some people have made "semi-dedicated" uppers with old 1:12" or 1:14" barrels and blocked the gas port. Still oversize, but the twist is better and with the port blocked it won't get as dirty. [edited to add links, and 'cause I can't spell] |
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Wow, that's more info than I was even hoping of getting! Thanks! I do have a couple more questions now though...primarily about the DPMS type of a kit. Like you mentioned, it's flat top and no iron sights. Are there any cheap iron sight kits available that could be added? It looks like the DPMS kit uses a free float barrel, which means I'd have to have a hole drilled for a post type front sight. However, the only rear sights I've been able to find are over $100! For that price I can get a red dot scope instead. I'd still like the option of having either though. |
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Wow, that's more info than I was even hoping of getting! Thanks! I do have a couple more questions now though...primarily about the DPMS type of a kit. Like you mentioned, it's flat top and no iron sights. Are there any cheap iron sight kits available that could be added? |
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I have a semi dedicated conversion upper as described above. That is, a 16" Oly 1 in 14 twist .223 upper that has been post banned by adding a Cav comp and welding it on and removal of the Bayo lug. I have blocked the gas tube in the upper with JB weld at the Breach end and pinched it closed bear the gasblock end. This greatly reduced fowling and is reversible by replacing the gas tube. I use an Army M-261 kit with this that needed some tweeking and deburring the ejector slightly. It currently functions great but the mag inserts seem to work best with steel 20 rounders ( USA or Western work fine) or Orlites as carriers. Nice tight fit without alot of slop. It also hates any and all hollow point ammo. Reington Thunderbolt runs best. Accuracy is about 1" at 50 yards. Rested 10 shots produced a single 1" hole. Total cost of the upper not counting spare mag inserts currently available from SARCO was $325. I know a few bucks more would have bought a DPMS, but I sort of valued the ability to change back if I wanted to. A .22lr upper beats the cool factor on any other .22 on the range and you will get stares and envious comments from the less fortunate. The supped up 10/22 guys will however maintain their appropriate level of snobbery. |
| it is my understanding that they are not in fact Gas operated, they simply leave the gas system in place and from their design appear as though they would be gas operated or assisted. My understanding is that both units are in fact blowback. The airforce unit does however have a rifled chamber insert greatly reducing the freebore. Personally I figure the 1" groups I'm getting with the army unit from a .223 barrel is good enough not to have to worry about the freebore. |
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Early last year, while I was thinking about a .22lr conversion for my Bushy DCM, I lucked into and bought a barely used, like new, Ciener conversion kit with one 10-round mag and one 30-round mag. The whole kit was $75. At first, I was kind of wondering what to expect. The unit went in easily enough, but it would stovepipe frequently, like every third or fourth round and I had no idea what to expect, because none of my friends were into AR shooting. (You can imagine how excited I was to find AR15-com!) Anyway, I stuck with the kit (and tried to keep the cursing down) and only shot it when no one else was around. Needless to say, "the guys" are never too impressed with your match-accurate rifle when it jams two or three times every ten rounds. Well, it must have been that the kit was not broken in because after a few hundred (maybe a thousand) rounds, the conversion is now running like a top. A stovepipe is a rare thing, now. What's really cool is the difference in accuracy I've seen with different types (brands and velocities) of ammo. The best accuracy/reliability/cost ammo that I've found is CCI Standard Velocity. It seems to run just fine. And, for kicks, I bought some of that new CCI Velociter ammo, it rocks. If you've made it this far though my post, thanks for taking the time! |
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