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Posted: 11/22/2002 5:42:41 PM EDT
| Why has no one made an upper in 38 super? |
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A modified 45acp mag (to accept the longer cartridge 45 is 1.275" and 38sup is 1.28" OAL), and a 9mm bolt would allow you to shoot 9x23 which is a 38sup with a 9mm rim. You would need a custom heavier buffer, and rechamber a 9mm barrel, but thats about it. As to "why", there hasn't been any demand. |
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Quoted: A modified 45acp mag (to accept the longer cartridge 45 is 1.275" and 38sup is 1.28" OAL), and a 9mm bolt would allow you to shoot 9x23 which is a 38sup with a 9mm rim. You would need a custom heavier buffer, and rechamber a 9mm barrel, but thats about it. As to "why", there hasn't been any demand. I have thought of doing something like this, but for 7.62x25 Tokarev. 9x23 would feed better than .38 Super, not being semi-rimmed. The Spanish made subguns in 9x23 Largo (same dimensions as 9x23Win) so the mags should be adaptable to a pistol cal AR. 9x23 Winchester should be impressive out of a 16" barrel, 7.62x25 Tok even more so. |
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There are two members here that I know of who are experimenting w/ a 7.62x25 upper. One has a barrel on order. I've thought about a 38 Super idea. I actually have an idea to use PPS43 mags - well, got that from another (and an idea for a block to hold the PPS43). It's a personal thing, as I love the round. Still in RnD phase (gotta get a few more PPS43 mags for measuring). There was a post a while back that there was a 9x23 or 38 Super upper being made (over at pistolsmith.com). I'm not sure if it was rumor or what. I got tired of waiting, so I'm doing some RnD. Hummmm....a heavier buffer? Wonder what that could be made of? Make it hollow and fill it w/ lead? |
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Heavier buffer as in A2 sized but machined from solid Steel. Several of these cartridge combos are at the very edge of whats safe for "Straight Blow-back" operation. To counter this you increase mass to delay the actions opening until the bullet has left the barrel - a spring will not do this. 7.62x25 Tokarev - that is a serious Vest shredder out of anything over 10" - and there is a bunch of extra hot (for PPsH) ammo out there that would run sweet! (Damn you for starting me thinking about even more new projects... ah, thanks.) I might make up something like that, but I might go for a light weight gas action. |
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Quoted: There are two members here that I know of who are experimenting w/ a 7.62x25 upper. One has a barrel on order. Kaliburz, what's the sit-rep on your 7.62x25 project? Mine's still in the planning stage. Maybe the New Year will bring new funds. Gotta finish the .45ACP project first. [:D] What I know right now (and I think some of this may be new info from me) is that I'm looking at getting an RRA (Colt-style) 9mm Upper (Pre-Ban of course), and then a barrel from somewhere. Kurt may still be able to supply the barrel, though you said in your post someone else is getting a barrel. From where? The two-piece RRA mag block looks like a winner with the PPS 43 mags: the front block allows you to grind on it instead of the lower to accomodate for the PPS curved magazine, and the rear block *looks* like it has enough thickness to be openev up to fit the rear ridge on the PPS 43 mag. I've thought about a 38 Super idea. I actually have an idea to use PPS43 mags - well, got that from another (and an idea for a block to hold the PPS43). It's a personal thing, as I love the round. Still in RnD phase (gotta get a few more PPS43 mags for measuring). Tell me about your block idea. Probably a lot better than mine. Also, if you are looking for PPS-43 mags, try this link: [url]http://www.mg34.com/PPS_43.html[/url] They are currently selling PPS-43 mags for $15 each, if you buy three. I bought a bunch this summer and they cut me an even better deal. The mags are in new unissued condition. Very nice. I also see on that page that they have PPS-43 barrels for $50. I wonder if those would work for our purposes, or are they too thin and unsupported like the PPSh-41 barrels? Hummmm....a heavier buffer? Wonder what that could be made of? Make it hollow and fill it w/ lead? I know that Oly Arms makes a heavier buffer for their full auto pistol-caliber ARs. Tom Spithaler says it would probably do the trick with the 7.62x25. That's what I'm hearing from too... maybe gas. From my conversations with the subgun guys at Oly, the PPSh-41 guys at Inter-Ordnance, and with Kurt, gas most likely won't be needed for the 7.62x25. Both the PPSh and the PPS are blowback, and with the heavier buffer, it shoudn't be a problem on the AR. |
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45 Upper Corvus??? Well, I'm about half way w/ that kind of idea.... that Sten block that was 'developed' would work for a Colt style 45 upper. The Sten mag will accept a flat nose 45 ACP round. All that would be needed is a modification of the mag lips, widen a bit to get the round to nose up. Not a big deal. $$$ is short... to many ideas, not enough $$$$. My long awaited 6mm PPC barrel is still on order. After that, I'm not quite sure what I'll do next..... (pay off everthing would be a good start). Da all mighty project to do list: 6mm PPC upper (in the works) 357 Sig upper in Colt Style (using "Sten block") 38 Super upper in Colt style (using PPS43 mag adapter- seperate project in its self) PPS43 mag adapter 7.62x25 upper in Colt style 45 ACP upper in Colt style (using "Sten block) AR10 build (Eagle Arms) Too many projects that I want to do.... |
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Quoted: Can someone please post a pic of the 6mm PPC round next to a standerd 223? What is the advantage of the 6mm? Well, there are "2" 6mm rounds for the AR that most people use. The most common if I recall is the 6x45 (aka 6mm-223)... which is a 223 Rem case necked up to 6mm (.240"). Most states allow .240" guns for hunting...cheap way to make an AR leagal for hunting. Next one is the 6mm PPC. It's bascially a necked down 7.62x39 case. Sorry, I don't have a pic of one.... |
| Kaliburz, you thinking about a .357 sig also? There's a Colt system 16" barrel in .357 Sig on order with Kurt for for me right now. I don't know when I'll be seeing it but I've tested the Sigs and they work great out of the Stens. A bolt was also sent to have the bolt face and extractor modified to fit the Sig rim. The cocking angle on the bolt is to modified so the blow-back force on the hammer isn't to excessive. The .357 Sig runs 1700 fps or more out of a 16" barrel so there has got to be a fare amount of foot/pounds energy. I think you know the .40 S&W rim is the same size and the round is right for a sten so that might be my next barrel. Speaking of AR-10's, maybe Rock River will come out with a .308 gas gun! |
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Quoted: I found some pics at http://accuracysystemsinc.com/ar15_conversion.html so what is the advantage of the 6mm PPC over the 223 to justify the conversion? Is it just the ability to hunt with it? The 6mm PPC is also a benchrest round. Suppose to be very accurate. I have not shot it, but I hope to (when my barrel arrives). You might think that a custom upper is a lot just to be able to hunt w/ an AR (espesially since 7.62x39 would do also). I got the urge to make one so I did it.... AR-fan, As Corvus posted above, Oly Arms makes a heavier buffer which he said would work w/ a 7.62x25 upper. So.... maybe it'll work w/ the 357 Sig. Yup, I was thinking 357 Sig when I saw the pics before (way back when Kurt showed it). I didn't like the idea of not having hi caps.... At least we have something that can use it and hicap too. Keep everyone up to date!! If you must, start a new thread in the pistol cal forum w/ updates and such. Maybe it can be tacked up too!!! (What's funny is, all the uppers I listed are near custom jobs......) |
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Quoted: 45 Upper Corvus??? Well, I'm about half way w/ that kind of idea.... that Sten block that was 'developed' would work for a Colt style 45 upper. The Sten mag will accept a flat nose 45 ACP round. All that would be needed is a modification of the mag lips, widen a bit to get the round to nose up. Not a big deal. I thought about the STEN route with .45 ACP, but a couple years ago I stumbled on something that I just couldn't resist: .45ACP Madsen mags! They require about .035 taken off the inside of the magwell on either side, which according to Kurt and Tom at Oly won't be a problem with forged lowers. The Madsen (or INA M953) mags hold 30-32 rounds each, and are double-stack single-feed. Just right for the Oly system. There's another guy here that is going to make up some 1/2" longer mag catches that will allow you to use the regular mag release button with the Oly/STEN setup, provided you don't mind grinding on your lower receiver. So, that's the .45ACP route I'm looking at. If you are interested in those Madsen .45 mags, let me know. I have a few extras, and I may have found another source for them as well! [:D] My long awaited 6mm PPC barrel is still on order. After that, I'm not quite sure what I'll do next..... (pay off everthing would be a good start). 6mmPPC is one kick-ass cartridge. Even better than the .22PPC. Tends to ignore the wind a bit better. Da all mighty project to do list: 6mm PPC upper (in the works) 357 Sig upper in Colt Style (using "Sten block") 38 Super upper in Colt style (using PPS43 mag adapter- seperate project in its self) PPS43 mag adapter 7.62x25 upper in Colt style 45 ACP upper in Colt style (using "Sten block) AR10 build (Eagle Arms) We have some similar projects! The .45 project (except in Oly style), the 7.62x25 project (obviously), and the Eagle Arms AR10 project too, though I'm leaning toward one of each: Eagle and Armalite. Several years ago, I got a BUTTload of Chinese M14 mags for like $6 each and sent them into Armalite for their two-for-one conversion. So, in the end, my 20-round AR-10 mags cost me $13 each! (They don't call me Dan the Deal Man for nothing.[:D]) I've got about four 1911 projects in the works, too. A Para-Ord kit in .38 Super and another in .45 ACP (already have all the mags I need for those), and a Safari Arms Commander-length project in .38 Super and another in .45ACP. The .45 Safari Commander is basically done. Very nice piece, but with an alloy frame. Going to put the alloy frame on the .38 Super and a steel frame on the .45. Nice PDW using Speer Flying Ashtrays. So much stuff, so little money, even less time... |
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