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Posted: 9/16/2015 1:59:45 PM EDT
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I bought a CMMG MK4 T in the Spring this year. It is chambered in 5.56, barrel is Stainless Steel 1:7" twist, 16" long and has a standard flash hider. I have been shooting the following types of ammo:
American Eagle XM193 55 gr American Eagle 223 50 gr Varmint Tip Freedom Munitions 55 gr, 62 gr, 5.56 and .223 Winchester XM193 Remington UMC 55 gr FMJ PMC 55 gr .223 Sights, both TRS25 red dot and Vortex 6-18X scope. Using the scope now to check accuracy, initially only had the red dot. On the bench, using Caldwell shooting rest, also just tried Caldwell lead sled. three different shooters. Unable to get groups smaller than 1.5" at 50 yards. 100 yard groups >2.5". Purpose: Fun range gun 1st, Prairie Dogs 2nd, SHTF 3rd Current accuracy not meeting my need for purpose 1 and 2 (hard to hit prairie rats at 300 yds with predicted 8" groups). Purpose 3 would probably be fine for taking care of Zombies within 100 yds ...., I have just ordered and received some other ammo, from 60 to 77 gr to try to see if heavier bullets are more accurate. Questions: What should I expect for accuracy from an AR of this type? What else should I consider to improve accuracy without spending significant dollars (significant i.e. more than $100)? Felt like BCM Mod 3 grip (this is an upgrade, initially gun had std A2 grip) was too small and vertical for me to shoot from bench. Just installed Ergo Deluxe Tactical Grip. Almost too big, but I think will put my finger in a more consistent place on the trigger and I like the rubber feel versus hard plastic. Just changed out the mil-spec stock to a Magpul ACS-L for better cheekweld and nice tight fit to buffer tube. FYI - I Have not shot since installing these two parts last night and don't expect they would improve accuracy much, but defintiely improve feel and fit of gun. Looking for others experiences to learn from. dgunnut |
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Personally I don't expect to get any better than 2-3 inches at 100 with any AR's I buy/build.
Now if I bought a Douglas barrel, or something expensive geared toward longer range precision purpose, then I would expect closer to 1-2 MOA. I think these are realistic expectations. Unlike some threads I've seen in the past, where a new guy buys and off the rack beginner/sport level AR expecting less than 1 MOA with MIL-SPEC ammo, and get upset when they find out it isnt. It's important to be realistic. |
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What trigger?
Regular military trigger will work against you when trying to get below the 3 MOA level. I have never been impressed with the accuracy of American Eagle and Rem UMC is worse yet in my book XM193 is ok but I wouldn't expect it to shoot under 2 1/2" in most 1:7 barrels. My experience with most shooters at my club is they shoot for a couple of hours , throw out a few flyers and are remembering the best 50% of the groups they shot that day . It is only human nature to look for the best and rationalize the not so good results. My point is don't believe all you hear on this site or any place about accuracy or the size of the fish 
Try some fed gold metal match or some black hills with the 69gr SMK Most of what you are shooting is at best ball ammo , any gun that is shooting that near 2.5" likely is good to go and could go down to 1.0-1.5" with the right ammo and operator with a good rest and trigger |
| wrong ammo right out the gate, shoot some black hills 69gr, or the federal 69. Off a solid bench, bag , after that a good handload using a bullet your rifle likes, and that may be a lighter bullet. But off the the shelf i'd try the heavier ones. Most of what you are shooting is the cheapest ammo around, blasting ammo. My 2 cents |
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What trigger? Regular military trigger will work against you when trying to get below the 3 MOA level. I have never been impressed with the accuracy of American Eagle and Rem UMC is worse yet in my book XM193 is ok but I wouldn't expect it to shoot under 2 1/2" in most 1:7 barrels. My experience with most shooters at my club is they shoot for a couple of hours , throw out a few flyers and are remembering the best 50% of the groups they shot that day . It is only human nature to look for the best and rationalize the not so good results. My point is don't believe all you hear on this site or any place about accuracy or the size of the fish
Try some fed gold metal match or some black hills with the 69gr SMK Most of what you are shooting is at best ball ammo , any gun that is shooting that near 2.5" likely is good to go and could go down to 1.0-1.5" with the right ammo and operator with a good rest and trigger It is a stock mil-spec trigger, but honestly feels pretty good to me, except a little on the heavy side. I don't have a gauge, but would guess it is around 6 lbs. I appreciate the feedback on what is likely normal accuracy. I now have some other ammo to try: Freedom Munitions 60 gr Hornaday V-tip, 69 gr Sierra HPBT Fiocchi 69 and 77 gr HPBT It's not Federal match grade, but at least the bullets would tend more towards that realm than what I have shot so far. Due to work and travel will likely be two weeks out before I get a chance to shoot it with this ammo. |
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wrong ammo right out the gate, shoot some black hills 69gr, or the federal 69. Off a solid bench, bag , after that a good handload using a bullet your rifle likes, and that may be a lighter bullet. But off the the shelf i'd try the heavier ones. Most of what you are shooting is the cheapest ammo around, blasting ammo. My 2 cents Thanks for the feedback. Agree that it's basically blasting ammo. I am saving my brass, but need to get the dies before I can start working on handloads. I have the other gear as I handload .243 Win, .30-06, 44 Mag/Spec, and .32-40 currently so only a matter of money and time... |
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Personally I don't expect to get any better than 2-3 inches at 100 with any AR's I buy/build. Now if I bought a Douglas barrel, or something expensive geared toward longer range precision purpose, then I would expect closer to 1-2 MOA. I think these are realistic expectations. Unlike some threads I've seen in the past, where a new guy buys and off the rack beginner/sport level AR expecting less than 1 MOA with MIL-SPEC ammo, and get upset when they find out it isnt. It's important to be realistic. I was actually hoping for 1 MOA....  That's why I posted
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My CMMG 16" Carbine 1/7 CHF will hold 1.5" at 100 yards with American Eagle 193's. This is with sand bags off a bench. Nikon 2x8 in a Larue QD mount, Geissele SSA-E trigger , and Centurion Arms C4 FF rail.
Not an easy task. Some day I'll try match ammo when I can afford it. |
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What's your set-up for that type of accuracy? Quoted:
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I don't think I have ever heard of AE223GTV shooting that loose. I know i can get about half that out of it. What's your set-up for that type of accuracy? To be totally honest, there's no real effort put toward set up. I put the rifle together with a Wilson Arms 18" SS barrel and an ALG ACT trigger with a spring kit. There is a primary Arms 4-16x sitting on top of it that makes a 3/4" square IPSC target paster look huge at 50 yards. Bipod on the front, rice bag at the back, the rifle is pretty much holding itself. I get myself as far out of the equation as possible. I haven't run 50 different kinds of ammo through it I ran a few. PSA was dumping the GTV stupid cheap, I bought some of it. I had pretty much the same experience with it that most here seem to have which is excellent and significantly better than the rest of the cheap ammo I was buying so, I stopped looking and stocked up on that. The rest of the bullets I've used just get me the standard plinker level of accuracy you could expect similar to yours. The nosler bullet in the GTV really ought to set it apart from the other projectiles. I would think that you should see a difference compared to the others If you looked around here I think you would find most people have pretty dang good results from that GTV. 1.5 or so @ 100 which is .75 at 50 or so. Danial Boone I ain't and I didn't dump huge money into the gun. |
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Another cheaper ammo that my gun (Sig M400 1/7) likes is the 75gr Prvi Partizan Match LINK, Widners has it for $8.75/20. I haven't tried their 69gr Match yet but I did buy some.
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| When I shot the ammo you listed I was getting about same groups, and i too was getting brass gathered. With the exception of Black hills was moa and under. Since then I've been loading 68,69,75 gr an have been happy. Many moa groups with handloads. Mines a 24in Dpms upper 1in 8. Good to see your a handloader you should be in good shape to find your rifles potential. |
| A couple things to consider....quality of ammunition, and I mean no offense at all by this but how experienced of a shooter are you? Have you shot MOA groups before? Again, no offense but it could be the shooter, you have to follow the fundamentals. But I would try some different ammunition, preferably handloads. |
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I was actually hoping for 1 MOA.... That's why I postedQuoted:
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Personally I don't expect to get any better than 2-3 inches at 100 with any AR's I buy/build. Now if I bought a Douglas barrel, or something expensive geared toward longer range precision purpose, then I would expect closer to 1-2 MOA. I think these are realistic expectations. Unlike some threads I've seen in the past, where a new guy buys and off the rack beginner/sport level AR expecting less than 1 MOA with MIL-SPEC ammo, and get upset when they find out it isnt. It's important to be realistic. I was actually hoping for 1 MOA.... That's why I postedYou have not shot any ammo that is 1 moa ammo. Nothing even close. Txl |
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A couple things to consider....quality of ammunition, and I mean no offense at all by this but how experienced of a shooter are you? Have you shot MOA groups before? Again, no offense but it could be the shooter, you have to follow the fundamentals. But I would try some different ammunition, preferably handloads. None taken. It's a fair question. I am capable of sub1 Moa groups at 100 yards with bolt guns. Shot my son's .243 with my hand loads into 0.5 inch groups the same day I couldn't get better than 2.5" to 3" groups with the AR. I admit my AR experience is limited. Agree that I should try higher quality ammo before getting too concerned, but I know others get good accuracy with similar ammo to what I've been shooting. |
| Another thing to consider is the barrel. It could not like match ammo. You could take two identical barrels side by side and both of them favor different loads. Just keep trying different loads. Sounds like you're on your way so far and you haven't given up yet. |
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You have been given your answer.
You need to find a few bullets that shoot what you want out of your barrel. Then you need to find a company that makes that size of bullet in a consistent package or you need to start loading it yourself with a OCW loadup to get it figured right. You could make changes but I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't spend another penny on the gun but instead would verify that the scope that I put on it has a quality mount and that I have everything torqued to what it should be. Few things are worse than buying quality ammo and scratching your head at strange groups only to find you were an idiot and your scope is moving on you. For the ammo listed with a bushnell red dot those are good groups and likely shooting as well as the stacked tolerances are able. |
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A free float rail and a better trigger will help a lot. The AE 50gr vtip is very accurate it my experience for what it is. Under an inch at 100 and under 2" at 200 yards. This is in a PSA freedom upper with a 1:7 stainless barrel, free float SQR rail, 3-9 scope and stock trigger. Its possible that your barrel may not like that ammo though.
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2" @ 100 yards is pretty normal for most of the ammo you listed. Take some pics of your targets, with at least 5 round groups. You can tell a lot about a shooter by his groups. Stocks and pistol grips aren't going to magically make you shoot any better. How about a magpul trigger guard? 
2 MOA is actually pretty good in my eyes. Especially with that ammunition. |
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You can cut the gun's potential mechanical accuracy in half with some accurizing techniques that are used by smiths who build precision guns.
I have seen this consistently when I test them before and after. What Makes an AR Accurate? |
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You can cut the gun's potential mechanical accuracy in half with some accurizing techniques that are used by smiths who build precision guns. I have seen this consistently when I test them before and after. What Makes an AR Accurate? I was thinking this same thing.... there is a concensus that you need better ammo. Most of the stuff you're shooting is basic military ball and the military only requires like 3moa from the stuff they buy. Even if your rig is capable of hole-in-hole at 100 yds teh ammo will never get you there. Let's take the rifle out of the equation though, shall we? Make it as accurate as it is capable of. 1. Get a decent trigger. I will say you don't need a $300 7-stage platinum-plated waste of $$$, but something that is smooth and crisp works wonders. I like the ALGs and the Spikes Battle triggers as decent entry-level upgrades. You can get either NiB coated, and with a touch of lube they are slick. They are milspec-based, but polished for a lack of grit and nicer break. If you can afford more any of the big players will serve you nicely, but for $55 these are a start. 2. Freefloat the barrel. If you are interfering with the barrel's harmonics you are doing accuracy no favors. Even a cheap freefloat tube will offer superior accuracy to standard snap-in handguards. 3. Lap the upper. Some will whine "oh I never lapped my upper and it will shoot the nads off a fly at a 1000m." May be true, but that doesn't mean YOURS doesn't need it. If the face of the upper isn't perfect this can cause the barrel clamping force at the flange of the barrel extension to be uneven. That induces torque into the system unevenly, and can affect accuracy. If it's BAD the barrel can actually be slightly crooked compared to the line of the upper. This can cause you to need to max out the sights in any particular direction. Lapping eliminates this, and it's stupid-easy to do. I lap every upper I build. There is a reason the benchrest guys do the same. 4. Good Glass in a good mount. I had great glass in a not-so-great mount and the rifle I'd just built wouldn't manage better than 2moa. I knew I had built better than that and started questioning the barrel. Changed glass and mount and proceeded to shoot a .8" group. Put the other back on and am back to 2" and not happy. Believing the glass was good the mount was changed and the groups tightened right up. You get what you pay for. I've seen exactly the same thing where a buddy was trying to zero his scope but zero was walking. Looked it up online (he bought it at the LGS because of the nice packaging I think) and come to find out it was meant for the tactical AIRSOFT world. It looked legit, played legit, but wasn't. 5. The barrel matters. Unfortunately you can't know what the barrel is capable of until you eliminate the variables above as only now have you isolated the barrel and the nut behind the trigger. Both have to do their jobs. If the barrel is not built for accuracy it likely will not be. If it's stainless though it should, I say SHOULD, have been geared toward it. Accuracy is the only real reason to make a barrel out of stainless. Sure it doesn't rust but neither will any properly maintained steel with a little love. What I consider ideal is a stainless match barrel, with the wylde chamber, that has been melonited/qpq'd/nitrided (all names for the same process). The stainless cuts cleaner, therefore it's easier to cut to be accurate. The wylde chamber is more accurate than a 5.56 but still allows the use of 5.56 without fear of pressure issues. Finally the nitriding process greatly hardens the surface of the steel; it's NOT a lining like chrome so it doesn't distort the original surface. The cut stainless gets you the accuracy, the nitriding allows you to keep it for a really long time. It also makes for a nice, graphite color to the metal that matches black-anodized Al rather nicely. So those are the important parts. The last thing I might recommend as a variable is you. If you strap the rifle into a sled so that you are no longer an issue the only things that are in play are the glass, the barrel, and the ammo. I say do this first, with match ammo. Make the changes above, one at a time, until the rifle is meeting your (REALISTIC) expectations. If it's shooting under an inch with good ammo off the sled be happy and move along, spend the $$$ on ammo and enjoy. If not make a change, break out the sled, check the difference, wash, rinse, repeat. Good luck with it. |
| Quality ammunition, meaning good bullets (not 55 FMJ's) with uniform velocities. The barrel MUST match the harmonic this ammunition creates. A decent barrel will shoot under 1 MOA, some including chromelined can do much better. Trigger control or consistent letoff a must as well. Sights are not as critical as people think! It is the shooter and his/her ability to be consistent that matters. If you want to shoot Pdogs handload and tune your loads to YOUR barrels harmonic dispersion precision node. That is the key to what you seek. |
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482428100/sierra-matchking-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-52-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail get some SIERRA or Hornady 52gr HPBT match bullets and load them up with win748 powder. That recipe seems to shoot tiny 100yrd. groups in about every rifle I've tried. ( yes, they shoot great in 1:7 barrels ) . 55FMJ is not for making tiny 100yrd groups Imagine these winchester turds spinning towards your target 
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http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/490/490499.jpg http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482428100/sierra-matchking-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-52-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail get some SIERRA or Hornady 52gr HPBT match bullets and load them up with win748 powder. That recipe seems to shoot tiny 100yrd. groups in about every rifle I've tried. ( yes, they shoot great in 1:7 barrels ) . 55FMJ is not for making tiny 100yrd groups Imagine these winchester turds spinning towards your target <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/IMGP6673.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/IMGP6673.jpg</a> I agree with this guy , the little Sierra pills might not be the deal for 300 and beyond but at 100yds they are laser beams in most guns. All I use in my 1:8 RRNM for reduced course service rifle matches. They shoot so well I have not really tuned the load , just worked up to whatever the suggested load was in the Sierra book. for WIN 748 |
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Also try some 55gr BlitzKings OP. They seem to fly well in just about everything I shoot them from: 1/8, 1/7, and even 1/6 twists. ADI's 55gr BlitzKing load has been the most accurate factory loaded ammo I've ever shot. It's the Australian Outback Ammo flavor. Also, I've taken varmints at over 350 yards with them, so they fly well at distance, too.
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| Thanks for all the good ideas. It's been a hectic few weeks, so I still haven't got back to the range to try some of the longer (heavier) bullet ammo I picked up. I also have reloading tools and components for .223 as well, so I may get some reloads put together before getting back to the range. |
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Finally got back to the range yesterday..
The only changes I made to the gun since my previous accuracy report where a new grip (Ergo Grips Deluxe Tactical) and a new stock (Magpul ACS-L). Shooting some of the same factory ammo I did before, Here were the improved results: PMC Bronze, 55gr, 5 shot group @ 15/16" American Eagle 50gr Varmint Tip, 5shots @1.75", four went into 1.25" Freedom Munitions, 9 shots @ 2.25", 6 of these went into 1.5" None of the above grouped better than 2.5" for five shot groups previously. Next, I had two loads from Fiocchi to try with Sierra Matchking bullets: 77 gr, 5 shots into 7/8"! 69 gr, 5 shots into just over an inch, 1-1/8" Finally, I had loaded up 68 gr and 75 gr Hornady BTHP Match bullets to try, using Lake City brass, Hodgon CFE223 powder, and Winchester Small Rifle primers. The results were decent with the 68 gr, not great with the 75 gr. I have some work to do here to try different powder charges. I started at the lowest charge in the Hornady book and worked up at 0.5 charge increments, but only tried three loads. So still quite a bit below the maximum charges. The velocities were quite a bit lower than I expected, 300-400 fps less than listed in the Hornady book, but those listed were in a 24" barrel, mine is a 16" so I exepcted them to be lower, just didn't expect that amount. And they were also quite a bit slower (300 fps) than the Fiocchi loads with similar weight bullets. 68 gr Hdy, 5-shot groups: 1", 1.5", 2-1/8" (three different load levels) 75 gr Hdy, 5-shot groups: 1-7/8", 1.75, 2.25 (three different load levels) All in all, it was a great day at the range and I have renewed confidence in the gun and my ability to shoot it. dgunnut |
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Here are the two groups I fired from a 6.5 Grendel I was accuracy-testing yesterday.
20" Bartlein barrel from Precision Firearms. I was just accuracy-testing it. I shot the 1st 3-round after dialing in the zero a bit, then at least a 7rd group. There are at least five holes in that one hole on the left group. 
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Here are the two groups I fired from a 6.5 Grendel I was accuracy-testing yesterday. 20" Bartlein barrel from Precision Firearms. I was just accuracy-testing it. I shot the 1st 3-round after dialing in the zero a bit, then at least a 7rd group. There are at least five holes in that one hole on the left group. http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/IMG_01791_zpsubqoazua.jpg How do you get the photo to show instead of the link? When I previewed my post it showed the photo, after I submitted it, it only showed the link? I tried it three different ways, and it only showed links.... Nice groups by the way! |
| To test my build I took 3 of those magpul stickers (the ones you get in the box when you buy a stock or something) and I stuck them to a piece of cardboard....ran it out there to 50y and held 5 shot groups inside the sticker with irons...M193 and Silver Bear. That is accuracy to me. |
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I was actually hoping for 1 MOA.... That's why I postedQuoted:
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Personally I don't expect to get any better than 2-3 inches at 100 with any AR's I buy/build. Now if I bought a Douglas barrel, or something expensive geared toward longer range precision purpose, then I would expect closer to 1-2 MOA. I think these are realistic expectations. Unlike some threads I've seen in the past, where a new guy buys and off the rack beginner/sport level AR expecting less than 1 MOA with MIL-SPEC ammo, and get upset when they find out it isnt. It's important to be realistic. I was actually hoping for 1 MOA.... That's why I postedI think this may be a side effect of the internet. 1 MOA consistently with an AR is tough. You need ammo the rifle likes, a very competent shooter, and sometimes a non-mil spec trigger (shooter dependent). Now, I'd be willing to wager that maybe 5-10% of folks on this site are capable of it then you take the ammo and rifle into account and it's more rare than folks thing. When I post videos with 1.5-2'' groups (I just randomly try 2 or 3 loads usually) lots of folks always say the rifle's not accurate or that I suck at shooting. Reality is from 2-3 loads there's no way to know if either of those is really true. But, I can tell you I shoot thousands of rounds per year and am a sponsored shooter and I pick up plenty of ARs that don't shoot "sub-MOA all day" like seems to be the norm on the interwebs.... |
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Here is a video I put together that goes into a bit more detail on my accuracy results. I am a visual person and find it t helpful when others share in a video format, so thought I would share mine.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/bYypSAf9Hnw[/youtube] CMMG Accuracy |
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It depends on how fussy you want to be.... I have a DDM4V5 with 16 in 1:7 barrel. All I have ever shot out of it is 55 gr FMJ.
At 50 yds I get all rounds into a 1 inch square. At 100 yds the group is smaller than my fist (about a 3inch group). At 200 yds its smaller than my open hand (about 6 inch group). All "A" hits on IDPA type of a target. I'm using PMC and IMI M-193 55gr FMJ. I am happy with what I am getting. |
| I have been doing some study on AR barrels, as I am planning a build, and have come to find that many kits come with 1:7 twist now. My research has told me that most 1:7 twist barrels are better for heavier bullet weights (69gr and better) for bullets of less weight will do better in a 1:9 twist. I am planning to use mainly 55gr practice ammo so I am trying to stick with a 1:9. |
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I have been doing some study on AR barrels, as I am planning a build, and have come to find that many kits come with 1:7 twist now. My research has told me that most 1:7 twist barrels are better for heavier bullet weights (69gr and better) for bullets of less weight will do better in a 1:9 twist. I am planning to use mainly 55gr practice ammo so I am trying to stick with a 1:9. 1:7 will shoot quality 55gr just fine....and someday, you'll probably want to try 77gr . |
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I have been doing some study on AR barrels, as I am planning a build, and have come to find that many kits come with 1:7 twist now. My research has told me that most 1:7 twist barrels are better for heavier bullet weights (69gr and better) for bullets of less weight will do better in a 1:9 twist. I am planning to use mainly 55gr practice ammo so I am trying to stick with a 1:9. Here's a picture of a 5 shot group we shot with 55gr Hornady FMJ handloads out of a 1:7 twist Daniel Defense barrel with a Burris XTR II 1-5x scope off a bipod at 100 yards. 
As long as you use quality bullets or ammunition loadings you shouldn't really get any worse results with 1:7s than 1:9s, as long as you find a loading your barrel likes. A lot of stainless steel match barrels are 1:7 or 1:8 twist and they're generally regarded as the most accurate barrels you can get. |
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