Firstly, not everyone has a complete and sudden understanding of the lumens or power behind a light, and secondly, its certainly not helpful or productive to call somebody an idiot and saying you will die.

All I was saying is I'd rather lose a few lumens to actually see my target and get a clean shot rather than blinking around like a dazed animal after turning on the light in front of me, thats certainly not a good enough reason to sink that low in a conversation over.

Finally, yes, I have read the article that covered selection and mounting of a light, and my question for that is where exactly do you find a filter for light? I've checked Surefire, Streamlight, and Inforces websites and none of them seem to have an easy to find page for filters.

I didn't post the article in response to you.
That being said, I would recommend reading it again. I looked back at your first post, and you seemed to miss that you shouldn't  be shining your light on bright white walls, regardless. Hit the ground with the light, while your rifle is pointed in a safe direction, and let the flood illuminate for you.
Not sure what you want a filter for, but Surefire makes several filters of different colors, I've got a red one that I use for non-shooting purposes at night. I highly recommend you train and educate yourself more on the use of a weaponlight prior to spending the money needlessly on a diffuser or similar setup.
http://www.surefire.com/parts-accessories/filters-diffusers-covers.html
If you're still that worried about the light being too bright (And who knows? Maybe you have something weird with your eyes that does disallow the use of brighter lights) I would recommend looking into the 170-200 lumen, older lights like the X300 and M300B. There's no way you will find them overpowering, in fact, you will likely be, as I have been, rather underwhelmed with lights in that power level.

Thanks for the feedback, and I finally caught the piece that says to aim at the floor (now I get to blame myself for speed reading again), and you're just making me more thankful I still am in the research phase on lights so I haven't wasted any money on it yet.

I don't know if its because of my eyes, but I do wear corrective lenses for near-sightedness, and they are transition lenses, so it may have something to do with how the light reflected into my glasses, or it may just be because it bounced off the wall, anywho, thanks for the info and helping me narrow my choices down to an Inforce WML and a Surefire G2X, so I'll see what I go with based on price point.

As an Insight, WML, and Surefire weaponlight owner I'd probably recommend the G2X. I love my WML but the polymer strength on these is not up to par of what I deem preferable. Other than that the WML is a great light. Surefire's are bomb proof though.

I agree with Milspec, the G2X is an excellent choice, and the one I would make between the two you suggested.

Well I recieved my low light training at a FLETC facility by some fantastic instructors. All of them agreed the preferred method was to have flashlight in hand. You sound like a keyboard ranger and quite the idiot. Calling me a moron and saying my family will be killed and murdered because I don't believe in your overly complicated let's stick a bunch of crap on my ar 15 to be tacticool. The beginning of that article pointed out most of the problems of weapon lights. Then you have to learn a bunch of techniques to try and overcome all those disadvantages. So if you spend the time to learn those techniques and then try to employ them while someone is attacking your house at 4 am.  Are you really at an advantage? Why gimp yourself in the beginning if God granted you with two eyes on the front of your face that can dialate and increase your ability to see in the dark. And by the way until you have arrested or engaged in a gunfight with someone in the dark you can stfu.

If your instructors told you a handheld light was better than a weaponlight, either they were shitty instructors or you took a class in the 80s.

http://www.itstactical.com/gearcom/lighting/the-practical-guide-to-everyday-carry-gear-defensive-light-use/


http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/weapon-mounted-vs-handheld-light/


https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/weapon-mounted-lights-for-private-citizens/

You know, I can see where you're coming from with that foxtrot. But I think the reason we're getting this conflict between people is we are looking at lights from two entirely different perspectives. I read through the majority of the ITS article, so I may not catch everything your arguing for, but I can understand what Dave means in that a handheld light is better, especially in relation to a handgun, because you can do more with it, and it doesn't have to come out only when you need the gun out.

But from where Hobo and Nick are coming from, they're coming from the perspective of using a light in conjunction with an AR-type rifle, which means you don't exactly have an off hand you can use to do other things because a long gun is most effective when both a hands are on the gun.

I can agree with the train of thought in your logic, but I also see where the other sides coming from, so I do apologize on the arguments getting thrown back and forth over this, but from my perspective I can agree with you that a handheld light is better when used in conjunction with a handgun, but due to the circumstances of handling a long gun I would indeed favor a weapon mounted light simply for ease of use.

On quick glance all of those articles are primarily focused on handguns.

It is what it is.  Rifles should have a light on them.  It has nothing to do with me being a keyboard ranger (Im not a ranger) and it has everything to do with your ability to point your rifle at things and engage them at night while knowing what they are.

The reason I was being a dick last night was because he said he didn't need a light because night vision and I proposed that the other guy had a light and flashed him and he said 'neva been done befo' and then suddenly he is preaching carry a handheld light.  Except he is not talking about with AR's he is talking about pistols.  I would like to see his approach to shooting people with a handheld light and an AR in close quarters that is better than a weapon mounted one.  

In the end I think he just wants to argue but he doesn't realize that arguing might actually convince someone who is new to this that they don't need a light which is stupid or that it just 'isn't that important' so they should go ahead and get some gizmo instead.

I gotta say, that was a good read.  I am looking at getting my first AR, and I am not sure if I want to build or buy... Everyone I've talked to says build, and most people have said I HAVE to have all the coolest optics and gear.. So I started talking to a buddy who owns and operates a business that focuses on AR builds using both .223/5.56 and 6.8.. His immediate thoughts are, build, but for a first rifle, you don't need all the expensive stuff.  Build and learn the rifle first, then add what you feel is needed.

Scott

Still doesn't exactly explain why you were telling me I will die from not understanding how lumens work. Not exactly positive feedback in any sense of the word.

I don't want you to die.  I don't want anyone to wake up to something going on in their home and go to investigate without a light.  It is a poorly thought out idea and one that with a few seconds of forethought and a few dollars you can easily fix.  I think some folks are arguing just to argue and every time they change the story slightly to explain the willful ignorance.  This is 2015 not 1985 we have quality lights and ways to mount them.  

You don't need all the lumens most likely.  
What you do need is
The ability to identify what is in front of you in terms of trip hazards or dropped items.  
A momentary mode that allows you to quickly shine and stop.  
The ability to identify what is in someones hands at that crucial 21 foot range.
A battery life that allows you to use it as a tool and not have to worry about how many minutes you have left in terms of battery life.


A weapons mounted light so you can kill all the zombies or multiple attackers or what ever.  This is different for law enforcement which I am not.  Many agencies require certain pistols or holsters which then limit.  They also have different standards for flash light use and those lights might be used to illuminate sights.  LEO's also work in a position where back up is an option.  How easy is it to cover down on someone you have shot with a rifle and a hand held light as well as calling 911?  The same story goes for slings.  Several guys have said I don't use slings and I don't need one.  Ok.  Except maybe you do and you simply don't know it.  The instances where you NEED a sling are really shitty ones.  Maybe someone is hurt....maybe you have been blind sided by a second attacker and fall violently to the ground where did your gun go?  How about with the light.  Maybe you are shot outside and the bad guy is moving.  Do you begin shooting anything that moves outside?  Depends on where you are at I suppose but my neighbors wouldn't like that.  How about you bump your magazine release or it wasn't seated.  You fire your first round and the mag drops to the grass.  You just had a muzzle flash so that 'night vision' you mentioned is gone.  You need to find that magazine and finish the fight.  If you don't have a light all you have is luck at that point.  

An article that is suggesting the use of a pistol mounted light, with the only caveat being "make sure you don't blind yourself with it, or be an idiot that thinks a light is incapacitating." The article clearly supports the position you're arguing against.

An article by a guy who is saying "If you can turn on a light, do so" and "I want to rely on an uncontrollable factor like my eyes adjusting instead of something I can control." Which is mind-numbingly stupid; your goal is to lower the number of variables you have to deal with, not increase them because "I'm not tacti-cool!"
Also, my favorite parts:
"Dave:  Yeah, light it up. That’s the way your eyes work and only use the flashlight when you truly need to."
" Dave:  I think a weapon-mounted light on a home protection pistol is probably a great idea. For the handgun that you’ve got in the dresser drawer next to your bed, or whatever the case may be..."
He's arguing what Nick and I have been saying, in spite of the fact that his training is out of date with regards to muzzle discipline and use of a light.

The argument the last article is making is literally "You're too incompetent to use a light properly, so you will shoot someone, because I don't know that a 200+ lumen light doesn't have to be pointed directly at someone to illuminate them." That great LEO training, huh?
At least find someone who knows what they're talking about before you try to cite his argument.

Based on the fact that you posted two articles that agree with our side of the argument, and one that was obviously written by someone who had no idea what they're talking about, I realize you're just trying to play the "I'm an idiot hurr durr, but I'm smarter than you" troll game, but you should take that shit to GD instead of here.

First off I'm not trolling you. Nor am I just arguing to argue. I don't have any lights mounted on a weapon and I specifically don't like one mounted on a AR15. If something went bump in the night I wouldn't grab an AR15 anyway. I would grab my pistol and the Strion that is in the lock box with it. I would also use the "FBI" style flashlight hold. I would also limit the use of the flashlight as much as possible preserving my nightvision. Look I'm not swat or some SOG unit clearing rooms. I think most arfcomers mimic those weapon systems that operators use but in reality most soldiers don't use weapon mounted lights. (Ir beam with nvgs being preferred) . Both of use talk about proper training of light use. Well here is the reality most people don't get enough training. So proper flashlight techniques on a weapon mounted light takes a lot of time to be proficient and during an high stress situation can you really rely on a complicated method. Remember the SWAT members that you are coping their technique do a lot of training for that specific purpose. How often to people clear their own house?

MY BIGEST PROBLEM WITH WEAPON LIGHTS IS YOU ARE PUTTING A GLOWING TARGET CENTER OF MASS ON YOURSELF FOR THE SUSPECT TO ATTACK!

(another issue flagging someone you might not want to shoot when you id them with the light)
Even you said you light up an area that isn't the target and identify with the beams corona. Ok no you are specifically taking muzzle off target and the suspected target is threat now you have to get back on target mean while you just let the suspect know where you are.

so what is it. Ok light the target up and disorient them then move to a new spot real quick so you don't get shot, or light up a spot that is not your target "floor" then get back on target, move so you don't get shot.....wtf...there is a lot of stuff to think about and in high stress with most people not getting enough training it isn't going to work.

So do you ID the target by not flashing the light at them losing the advantage? Or do you flash them ID the target disorient them potentially flagging a friendly target?

Like I said I'm not swat or an "operator" I do arrest people at night in the dark with usually nothing but moonlight to aid. Why because if I use a light I give away my position and they run. So that is my experience most of my co workers preach light discipline and using your own nightvision

And yes if I was in a building following someone I wanted to arrest I would turn all the lights on.

Foxtrot- Dude, you are talking TO soldiers, that are telling you they DO use weaponlights. So why are you telling soldiers they don't use weaponlights?

Nick was infantry and hobo was......I'm drawing a blank......the waterboy?

(Jk hobo)

The point here is this is the new guy forum, and giving out bad advice to new guys is dangerous in this HD realm.

Flying into Bagram on my way to Kunar, I met a plumber with the national guard that had a M951 on his M4. Even the poguiest pogue has a light on his rifle these days. Who told you soldiers don't use weaponlights?

Furthermore, these statements don't jive, if you're here to seriously discuss something, then at least have your position thought out.


You're saying within a sentence of each other "I'm concerned about muzzle discpline" and "I'm not concerned about muzzle discipline, because I'm going to flag a shadow that could be a burglar or could be a kid that's up at night."

There's nothing complicated about using a weaponlight. It's a button that you push. The fact that you keep trying to bring up the "you want to be SWAT" or "You want to be an operator" is proof enough that you don't know as much as you think you do. Along with the fact that you, like many others, can't seem to understand that if you're hitting a WML, you're about to make the choice between killing the threat, and ending the situation. You shouldn't be strolling around flashing the light and making yourself a target, you should be hitting the light when you see the threat and are IMMEDIATELY making the decision to shoot or not. Properly employing the light in this manner also......preserves your eye's natural night vision for as long as possible.
Maybe your training is out of date, but every point you keep bringing up has been addressed in training during the 20+ years that weapon mounted lights have been in common use. There's a reason Surefire does so much business with military and law enforcement.

Wanting the ability to use a VERY simple tactic and piece of equipment to positively identify a threat (Something a soldier will tell you is important.) is not pretending to be anything you're not. It's also not some onerous task that is difficult to train for. Nor is it unreasonable; in fact, it's the only responsible way to employ a firearm in self defense, if a person can't understand and conduct the training to use something as simple as a weapon mounted light, they're hopeless and have no business handling firearms. Frankly, learning to use a light is just as important to a self defense shooter as learning to shoot accurately. If you can't learn both, you are never going to be capable of safely using a firearm in self defense.


If I seem brusque, it's because every point you bring up has been picked over hundreds of times. It's simply bad advice to tell someone not to use a simple, reliable, effective tool to minimize the chance of a tragedy occurring. You might be able to debate minor things like "how many lumens" or "what kind of light to use," but the usefulness and efficacy of a properly employed light is not a matter of opinion.

Wow, only 50 posts and you dare to question the wisdom of those who OBVIOUSLY know more about you than you do </sarcasm> :)

If you think your run of the mill cop is better trained than an infantryman then I actually feel bad for you. But anyways, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, maybe we should get back to the basis of the O.P.

Article Excerpts...
"Dave:  .....
You’ve got to remember that that a flashlight, when you light it up, illuminates where you are located. The bad guy realizes that that flashlight has to be attached to a person in some way. If you were a bad guy hiding in the dark and somebody comes in and they start strobing, where do you think they’re going to direct their fire if they decide to shoot at you?"

Dave:  They say overwhelm them with the light and they’ve got these lights that do all this strobing stuff. If you’ve ever been behind some of these lights, when they strobe they can almost overwhelm you. It’s like being in a disco in the 1970s. This is another case where we’re training for our rules, the good guys rules. We won’t shoot at anything if we don’t know what it is. The bad guy is going to see us coming in there with that dynamic $300 strobing light trying to strobe the room. All they’re going to do is take their 15 round 9mm pistol and light up the area, just shooting in all kinds of directions. I don’t want to cast dispersions on these various training programs, but I think many of these things are more tacti-cool then practical in that they’re overly complicated and too reliant on gizmos.

Dave:  They are a supplement to a handheld light. I know in the law enforcement community and with some of the armed citizens there’s that desire to have the light on your gun. It is a great tool in the fact that it allows you to keep both of your hands on the pistol or revolver (there are some revolvers with rail systems on them now). It allows you to keep both of your hands on the gun to shoot. However, you’ve got to remember that any place you point that weapon-mounted light, you are also pointing the muzzle of that gun and you don’t point the muzzle at anything you’re not willing to shoot, kill, or destroy.

That being the case, the handheld light can be pointed in directions that the weapon-mounted light cannot be. So the weapon-mounted light, to me, is the same as it was when we put them on shotguns, submachine guns and now carbines. Is it is a supplement to a handheld light. You can do so much more with a handheld light. There are things you can do with the handheld light that you can’t do with the weapon-mounted light. However, the weapon-mounted light has the advantage that it allows you to place both of your hands on the gun. You can shoot with the handheld light, but I don’t care which of the various positions you’re using, you’re still shooting with one hand, because the support hand is going to be occupied by the flashlight in some fashion.

I don’t want to say never, but I think as a general rule, the handheld light gives you more options versus the weapon-mounted light. But again, I’ll be the first to tell you that the weapon-mounted light, especially on long guns, is a good supplement to a handheld light.

Furthermore, a light that’s too bright can have detrimental effects on the user’s own visibility. If you’ve been in dimly lit surroundings for about half an hour or longer, your eyes have already adjusted to gather as much light as possible. When you’re suddenly exposed to bright light, even if its reflected light, you have now disrupted your night vision. Locating whatever is making that noise in the dark is going to be a whole lot harder, let alone using your firearm. Most homes have interior walls with light colored paint. Their purpose is to reflect light throughout the house, and that’s exactly what they’ll do when you point your 800 lumen LightBlaster9000 down the hallway. Also consider reflective surfaces like metal furnishings, stainless steel appliances, mirrors, and tile. If the light is bright enough to “blind” the attacker, it may very well blind you, too.
Realistically, about the only circumstance involving a flashlight and a handgun at the same time for a private citizen is in the home, at night, when investigating the proverbial “things that go bump in the night.” Here again though, the mission is still quite different for the homeowner and the SWAT officer serving a warrant. The homeowner should know the layout of the home, the location of choke points and obstacles, and have a general plan of action built on that knowledge. He won’t need the flashlight for navigation.
Actually, the primary purpose of the flashlight for the homeowner will be target identification and target discrimination.
Some years ago, I felt that these were a sensible addition to a dedicated home defense handgun, or “nightstand pistol,” particularly if coupled with a high capacity autoloader. If the homeowner grabbed the gun in the middle of the night, he would likely have enough ammo in a high-cap pistol, and the light source already attached would not have to be found and grabbed separately. However, recent developments have changed my opinion.
In the past few months there have been two negligent shootings (one fatal) of unarmed suspects by police officers with a weapon-mounted light on a handgun who were trying to illuminate a suspect. In both cases, the officer meant to activate the light, and unintentionally fired the gun, striking the suspect. Go back to the second paragraph above.
First, few homeowners are going to train with the light on the gun to the point of learning to work the switches without getting a finger near the trigger, particularly under high stress.
Second, the Force Science Institute and other highly respected sources have documented the phenomenon of “trigger searching,” even among highly trained and skilled SWAT operators. Do a quick Google search on Force Science and “trigger search” for further enlightenment (forgive the pun).
Third, if the only light you have is a weapon mounted light, you have to point the gun at everything you look at; a clear violation of Rule Two (never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy).
Remember, the purpose of an illumination tool is to identify and discriminate a target before pointing a gun at it. This is not possible if your only light is weapon mounted. So, the bottom line is, even if you have a weapon mounted light (WML), you have to have a hand held light, as well. The WML is strictly for shooting, not for searching or for target identification.


And here is the other thing. Many of the good instructors I've had the opportunity of attending one of their classes often say "Look this isn't the only way its A way" your claims that the most important upgrade is a weapon light and anyone who disagrees with you is a "idiot, going to have their family raped and murdered" is retarded. If you can train with a weapon light and make it work for you then good. But don't preach this shit without pointing out the flaws. Its not the end all be all and not every professional shooter agrees with your point of view.  

While I agree that a handheld is important for general use, I disagree that a weaponlight is less important than the handheld.

How I've always looked at it is my long gun light is for any combat related illuminating I may need to do, and handheld for tasks where a threat either isn't present, or anything I don't want to be pointing a gun at.

Any way I boil it down, using a handheld AND a rifle effectively at the same time is hardly efficient.

Handguns I feel differently about it, a pistol and a handheld I can run just fine. (Although I'd rather have a pistol mounted light if I can) But a handheld and a rifle? No can do.

P.S. I thought your point of view was natural night vision > illumination. Are you changing that? (I think that's what pissed Nick off)

By those statements I was pointing out what your stating about the use of the light. Someone brings up Muzzle control and flagging and then you say no proper use of the light is to shine the floor and scan the area from the beams corona. Then I say well you have given up your position. Then you say you are only supposed to light up a target right before you decide to shoot it. Then I say well what about the sympathetic response,  Dude come on. If your highly trained with a system and are aware of the flaws you can mitigate them but to say that add a "WML" to every ar15 is the best choice you can make for a HD gun is wrong. People are going to do things that work for them and fit their situation best. A home defense weapon doesn't need a light attached to it. I would say that you would be way better off if you had a handheld light with you.

Yes soldiers are more trained then Policeman (I'm not a cop, I am a LEO) Everyday that youre not soldering you are training. Which is awesome but budgets don't allow for LEOs to do that we have to go out and enforce laws. We need a system that is easily trainable and understandable and can have results in a high stress environment.

I talked with 3, guys. One is a coreman who was with a security battalion and he said his unit had lights, The Marine said no one used mounted lights mostly the peq 13 and nvgs, he did say he got a surefire to put in his pocket, the army infantryman said he had a white light, laser combo but never used the white light.

Yes, I would want to use my night vision. If someone broke into my home I would grab the light and gun. I feel that with my own night vision I could discern the target. If I couldn't I could always light it up. but that's a perfect situation and at my house like I said previously my house is never pitch black there is always something glowing. I could use my night vision and still have the light if I needed it. Like I said earlier when we train new guys most are afraid of the dark and have never really had to work in it, After we preach light discipline guys learn to rely on their own eyes.

I also think using the light to shine in a room (however brief) and clear it still gives away your position.

I was googleing this topic and ran across an anecdote from a guy who was playing the red team on a simunitions course. He stated the bad guy he played had a weapon light. The light had to be replaced because it took so much fire.

I am willing to state that with proper training a WML will benefit a rifle that is used for HD. I mean it will but I want you to admit that it there are other ways to train and a WML is not the end all be all to low light situations and it takes a good amount of training to be used effectively.

I think you're getting me confused with somebody else because I didn't say any of that. And Marines are issued the PEQ-16. I don't think there is such thing as a PEQ-13

To be quite frank, I'm not going to reiterate what I've already said.
The light is there to supplement your night vision, not to replace it. (I'll give you this, you SEEM to be finally picking that part of what I'm saying up) You're a human, just like I am, so I have a rough idea of how well you can identify something at night, and your eyes in the dark are no where near as capable as your eyes and a light at night for picking up fine details such as "is this person armed, and appearing to be a threat, or not."
Shining a light across a room for no reason is improperly using a weapon light. If you don't even understand the basics of employing the device we're discussing, and seem to not care to do so, then first, why are you offering advice on the subject? Second, it's not particularly productive for me to keep telling you why you're wrong.

Not every opinion is valid or worth hearing. I'd love to meet some of these highly qualified instructors you're meeting that tell you shooting half blind is cool, because half blind and hoping your eyes are adjusted is the best you will get without a means to properly PID a target. Or juggling a second item in your hands when you SHOULD be  concentrating on the situation.
I mean, for Christ's sake, the fact that a pistol mounted light lets you keep two hands on the gun while still being providing the capability to illuminate speaks for itself in improving your ability to hit a target under stress.

On a side note, if someone is blasting a strobe light around, they're an idiot. I highly suggest you don't judge people that actually understand the use of white light by the airsoft playing morons that think shit like that is a good idea.

I think one of the biggest issues I'm seeing being argued to is that majority of the articles relating to why a handheld light or night vision is better pertains primarily towards a handgun, which have a different set of capabilities and limitations over an AR platform. A handheld makes alot more sense with a handgun because a handgun can be manipulated relatively easily with one hand. Its not ideal, but it can be done, whereas with a rifle its not really practical. And with the rifle even if you point in the direction of the target to ID with a light, it seems to me the chances of having a negligent discharge are lower (at least in regards to fumbling between the light and the trigger).

And while I can see the viewpoints of some of the guys in the military community, I have to look at the civilian aspect and say I can't exactly afford night-vision capability or some high-end laser, so a WML seems to be the most practical and affordable option for a defensive carbine.

On another note, I feel stupid in that I never thought about doing something as simple as flipping on the lights in my house to ID a miscreant. Sure, it means the guy may see me coming, but it makes things a lot easier for me in making a faster identification of my target, which means rounds go on target a lot faster if such action is necessary.

Man yall can all go to hell. I just reread all the god damn abuse you nitwits are saying about me. Trying to lend your argument some credence I wanted to reread the thread nick you can go eat a bag a dicks. Ive arrested MS13 with no lights so your panzy ass can go stuff all those surfires up your ass. Hobo screw you too stupid fan club here....basic thing is there is more then one way to skin a cat fellas you should find out what works for you not listen to some keyboard ranger that wants to jam 10 lbs of crap on your rifle. If your rifle doesn't fit put a different stock on it.  Point is 99% of people that put a weapon light on their rifle/pistol aren't going to get adequate training. You are talking about some advanced level training and to advise someone that can barely afford the rifle to put a light on it and you expect them to spend the money to get the training? or spend the money on ammo and the setting to train themselves? cmon live in reality. by telling people their AR15 is subpar until it has a light on it most likely means that when someone has to use it they are going to use that WML wrong then they will get killed.  

By the way I love how the first post talked about hey lets discuss this then yall bitches started talking about how I was an idiot and posted the dumbest shit ever on arf.com (when my problems with the system are the first things listed on your little guide to using a WML so I honesty wasnt the first one to have a problem with it) and how my family was going to get raped. typical keyboard ranger bullshit I don't know why I wasted my time. Not anymore I'm done put what ever crap you want on your rifle who cares.   no more fucks given

This post totally changed my opinion on you. I about pissed my pants laughing, and I'd rather you stick around.

Good thread.

My order.

Rifle (with irons)
Optic
Light
Trigger
Sling

So as a clarification for new guys that might be reading that.  Do you mean that was the order that you purchased things for your rifle or are you saying you buy multiple rifles and as a rule you outfit them in that order?  

I think it can be very easy to justify optic before light followed by a trigger in general shooting terms.  Having an optic on any rifle is extremely helpful but I would contend if you have any intention whatsoever of grabbing the gun at night and defending yourself it would make sense to offset that 100 or so bucks first to ensure you can see your target.  Many guns that are in the main safe and are bast that general purpose rifle need that I have already filled get an optic (sometimes magnified) and a geissele trigger.  It is just somethings that I really like to have.  Same goes for bipods.  This isn't going contrary to the article because I have that GP rifle role filled and anything else is special purpose.  It is important to remember that not everything has to fill that GP role.

Agreed. If I had a new rifle for HD, as much as I'm going to want an optic and a light on it ASAP, light comes first.

You can still point shoot or use a front sight without an optic, but you can't see without illumination

I definitely place a WML high on the list of priorities.  I was in many different Infantry, Reconnaissance, and Airborne units and we used lights a lot.  They became SOP, and I'm not sure what you would do without one in the house.  

For a HD carbine, it's a must really if you plan to be able to take ground in your home to create a barrier between you, an intruder, and your family, even in daylight, when most burglaries/home invasions happen.

Some of us happen to have a background and current training regimen that is appropriate to this discussion, and are here to pass on lessons learned the hard way with sweat and blood, so freedom-loving people at home don't have to learn them once the hard way.

None of the lessons I've learned about WML, kicking in people's doors, room clearing, white light management, or fighting in close quarters was learned from behind a keyboard, because you really can't learn that way.

You can learn from others who have done it what equipment works, and then be encouraged to get some training.

Sorry I missed this.  That is the order I went in for my first rifle - but to me an RDS and Light are REQUIRED, everything else I listed is nice to have.
- A light is an essential for target ID in low light
- A RDS made me significantly faster and accurate - especially up close / accounting for offsets.  I'm amazed at how often I see no-shoots and missed A zone hits at matches at close range shots due to not accounting for height over bore.

I went with optic first given my rifle was for general purpose use (not just HD) and I could enjoy the optic benefits in shooting matches.  I also considered the fact I could just turn on lights in my house as a stop gap until I got the light.  Power never goes out, right?  

A pure HD weapon needs a light first for ID purposes - period.  I like the X300U mounted at 12:00 in front of (and protected by) DD Fixed front sight.

A sling isn't important to you?  A rifle with out a sling is just a toy.

Well that is probably a bit excessive.  A rifle with a optic and light can identify and engage a target.  The sling becomes important for everything following that.  If you decide you aren't going to help anyone or you are going to hold your rifle on the person you shot and just hope the police are called by someone else it works.  If the someone else you are relying on to call the police is also someone you care about in your house what are you going to do if they are hurt?  I sure would hate for someone to scoop up a child or something like that and try to get out of the house only to find there are more attackers outside.  

Its not just a toy but you are severely limited without the sling and there is little reason for it.

early to mid 80's the only slings allowed were on M-60's. M16, M203 and M-249 gunners weren't allowed to have a sling in the rucksack let alone on a weapon. knee or elbow pads were strictly forbidden. getting caught with either in the field brought serious amounts of pain and extra duty into your life. ear protection was encouraged but eye protection was optional. we only trained at the MOUT site about 2 weeks a year. the NODS you young bucks use now were being tested in mid 80's. several joe's got permanent damage from testing them for a few short weeks. fascinating how the use of equipment is always evolving.


 

Soldiering is an odd thing.  A sling can aid a soldier greatly in the actual act of shooting.  It is imperative to have a way to contain your rifle when you pick up your buddy or go hands on with a detainee.  The problem with slings for bad soldiers is suddenly they don't put hands on the rifle when walking normally or rucking or pulling security.  It is one of those lazy things.  We also saw this influx of single point and three point slings that sometimes where very poorly put together.  The age of video has really opened peoples eyes to how bad some things are.

A person involved with a shooting might think things went ok but review of the video might show how close they were to being killed thanks to poor gear.  Also remember that most of the time for group effort deals like soldiering or many law enforcement applications if you have to set down a rifle for a brief moment you are covered.  If you are alone it is your gun in the fight and that's it.

I had been a "buy more rifles/work fundamentals/buy shit later" guy for years. I get your philosophy and overall the preaching has merit, especially a good sling being underestimated, for instance, but I largely degree with your order.

Sights generally come with on the weapon. There is no earthly reason to waste money on better sights. I say waste because you put it right above the rifle. Fluorescent or gold or glow in the dark nail polish costs nothing as an enhancer, for day shooting, and there are far superior options for acquisition than sights at night. Moreover, BUIS are suceptible to breakage as much or more so than top quality mounted optics, so you are basically stuck with tritium inserts as a bombproof upgrade, which again is inferior compared to the other options.

Furniture is the FIRST or must be among the first of one's upgrades. How exactly do you intend to hang that priority 3 light - gorilla glue? Furniture is the base of the rifle, dictates its feel/function and provides the path of its capabilities. Do you need a furniture upgrade immediately? No, but this generally means you will have NO light, NO foregrip, and your sling will either be paracord-anchored or attached at a very awkward point on your weapon.the sooner you get furniture that works with your plan, the more and sooner you train on the platform that ultimately works for you. I much prefer training on some empty-slotted weapon with the right VFG and add from there than accumulate all the other crap and finally get the furniture, which changes the location balance and feel of everything on the weapon.

Optics These are higher on the list than sights. They are terribly expensive (the "right" ones at least), but they dramatically enhance the shooter's capabilities (or aid what capability he has). I have taken a few carbine courses with plain sights and made it through the old fashioned way. My carbine went tits up over a blown primer I couldn't see at the time and someone offered me an EOTech equipped backup before I could get back to the car for my bare bones 20". That day changed my priorities about optics. Yes, electronics that are vulnerable to malfunction and dependent on batteries, which kept them at arms length for years. However, this is not 2003 anymore. A larue-mounted aimpont is as rugged and solid as anything I have seen past the A2 configuration and the battery lasts 7-8 years of continuous use. It is reliable enough to use on a rifle WITHOUT the need for BUIS (though that is a reasonable purchase).

Had this been a "what do you spend $$$ on the top-of-the-line categories first" article, I may have agreed more, with the definite exception of optics.

My experience, right or wrong (and none can convince me otherwise) is:

1. Weapon
2. Furniture ($250 stocks/forends not mandatory)
3. Sling (if you can't get 1-3 in one shot, you can't afford the platform)
4. US-made professional quality "dot-style" optic (Aimpoint, etc.) on a top quality mount.
5. Light
6. BUIS
7. ETC.
8. ...

I think the article was focused on a base rifle that had an A2 front sight and no rear thus the confusion you had with the sights.  They are saying to get a quality rear sight.  

Most base rifles have sling swivels and 3:1 slings are bad.

There are plenty of good mounting solutions for lights besides going out and replacing most of the front end of your gun.  I see that a bunch where someone thinks they have to get a whole new rail which means they get rid of the d-ring and front sight in the process.  There are drop in rails that are cheap as well as light mounting options for the front sight as well as on the original for-end.  The point of the article is to point at stuff you do need while keeping you away from shit like vertical fore-grips.  How many rifles have you seen with a new forward rail or a fore-grip either of which could have cost the same cost as a light but the rifle has no light.  That is silly.  If you spend time around here you will also so people showing off a new rifle they purchased with a fancy bipod no rear sight and a super cheap magnified optic.  Some don't see it as a general purpose gun but many will openly tell you they plan on using it as a home defense or more laughably a government defense gun.  You know...for freedom.

My order


1. build a ar15


2. auw build another AR


3. build a ultra light AR


4. build a Tactical AR


5. build ~~~~  , well you get it  


LOLOLOL

 

+ 50 are more

I use my rifles at the range for the most part, but I want the ability to use them for self defense as well. They all have a sling, a carry handle, and a light mounted in the 6 o'clock position in an Elzetta mount.

Weapon retention. In a home defense scenario I might need to keep my rifle handy but scoop up my young kids to get them to safety.

My order





Rifle with Irons (Fixed or BUIS)


Sling


Light


Optic


IR Laser

Everything else

AR
Light
Sling
RDS
Update Stock and grip
BUIS
Trigger
Raptor Charging Handle