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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/14/2017 11:16:08 PM EDT
[#1]
I find it difficult to put back up iron sights on a rifle that has a good size scope. You need a riser that makes your scope further away from the axis of the bore or you need 45 degrees risers for the iron sights. Neither is a good thing.
On my s*** hit the fan battle rifle all I have is iron sights. But then it's an M1 Garand. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2017 10:57:07 AM EDT
[#2]
I voted no. I agree with folks saying it's unwise to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role, even if that rifle happens to be an AR15. Look at people's varmint and hunting rigs, they usually bear little resemblance to a home defense or duty gun, and for good reason, these two purposes are often mutually exclusive. Wouldn't want to clear a house with my SPR. Wouldn't want to splat prairie dogs with my HD rifle either. At that point I'd be considering the pistol my
Originally Posted By nickforney:
could be picked up to defend the house if needed. There's mention of ACOGs and the military and house clearing. This is a "clear the house with the weapon/optics we have not the weapon/optics we want" scenario brought on by the exigent need to kill all the bad dudes in that house, not because the ACOG is the king of CQB. House clearing sucks with an ACOG precisely because it's magnified. Yep, you can point shoot a rifle, if you're super clever you can even cover your front lens and use it as an OEG. Both solutions are sub optimal at best. Point shooting can be terribly inaccurate and regardless of what you may have been taught it doesn't have a place in the civilian world where every round is accounted for. I get that point shooting is a thing, but that seems to be the divide here. It's not about being Rambo it's about having an adequate tool for the job at hand. |
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Posted: 12/15/2017 11:58:15 PM EDT
[#3]
No, use that money for a flashlight.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 12:11:43 AM EDT
[#4]
Some of my rifles have BUIS and some do not. I do not spend the money on them unless it is a rifle that "can't fail".
My SBR that is my go to rifle and kept for defensive purposes has BUIS (fixed front, folding rear) My primary hunting rifle (AR-10) wears a 1-6 optic and a set of BUIS. They cannot be deployed without removing the optic and are there in case the optic gets broken during the hunt; so that I don't have to end a hunt over a broken optic. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 12:26:52 AM EDT
[#5]
If I have a rifle with a scope or RDS on it, then yes, it has BUIS on it. Most of my rifles currently have carry handles installed, however.
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Posted: 12/16/2017 1:09:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AnonymousUser0087]
[#6]
I don’t run buis on powered optics. For anything not a rds, I use an RMR because irons are not gonna work with a scope and they are torqued to 65 in/lb. So, taking the optic of in a hurry is not an option (even quick detach may not be fast enough). On a rds, a fixed front sight post or folder in the up position and maybe an RMR.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 9:24:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Italianstallion]
[#7]
I would definitely put at least a cheap BUIS on every rifle..
A cheap BUIS is literally "cheap" insurance and is far better than nothing. I used to buy expensive BUIS but I realize now it's a waste of money. The cheap ones are all you need. The spare tire is a good analogy. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:45:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Redundancy is good; if the rifle can accept them and they may be called upon, why wouldn't you equip it with them.
Even if it's just a range toy and your optics battery dies, then your range day is not ruined. There's no reason not to have them especially when magpuls are so inexpensive. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 7:53:20 PM EDT
[#9]
I've been through several major hurricanes. Katrina's 28 foot storm surge was a bitch. Lost a lot of stuff. Many friends did too. Lived under martial law with no electricity for more than a few days afterward. Natural disaster, storm, flood, fire, earthquake or other major catastrophe, natural or man-made, will at some time or another happen to most of us.
Think of each firearm you own as possibly the only one that would survive this catastrophe and be fit for personal defense, duty or even survival. If it were, would you want dependable back up sights on it in the event the primary optic failed and could not be replaced? I think the answer would most likely be yes. You might not have much say-so in which of your firearms survives in usable condition. Accordingly, all but a small number of firearms I own (those that are too specialized) have both their normal primary optic (scope, red dot), and some sort of fail-safe back up sights. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/17/2017 12:26:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken]
[#10]
I put a set on every AR I own, but can see why not everyone would (like for a single purpose AR). All my ARs are multipurpose and I like them to be set to work in a shtf end of days type situation.
Even if it has a scope, the Magpul pro offsets are great especially if you don't have a quick detach on your scope. Scope goes down, glass breaks, etc and the offsets are ready faster then removing the scope. If you go with buis then there are several follow ups: 1) folding or fixed 2) if folding, spring actuated or manual 3) if folding, lock in position, or overcome by force (like if they got hung up on something, bumped hard enough, dropped etc) Most if this based on preference and every option has positives and negatives. I don't have a go to buis set. Depends on my set up and purpose of the rifle. |
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Posted: 12/18/2017 2:01:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tweeter:
Sights are contextual, and in this context back-up sights are not necessary. I took the BUIS off my HD gun (it has a CompML3) a couple of years back after I tried shooting at 50 yards with them. I really think I could just look down the barrel and do about as well. |
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Posted: 12/18/2017 4:43:47 PM EDT
[#12]
I think, for a hunting rifle particularly, there's a larger context, too. I wouldn't think of going on any hunting trip (even coyotes or smaller varmints) with just one rifle. And, in fact, my primary hunting rifles wouldn't necessarily even be on the AR platform. I realize I'm straying from the OPs question here by assuming he has other rifles available - but if I'm hunting, plinking or whatever, there will always be another gun back at the truck that I can use. So, why bother putting BUIS on a hunting-oriented AR, when I likely have a scope bolt action (or another AR) sitting in a case, ready to go?
Some of my guns do have BUIS, others don't. My bedside rifle has an ACOG compact on the carry handle - so both sights are instantly available. With BUIS, if the optic quits in mid-shot, it'll take at least a moment to pop those up, unless you're running offsets. If you're running a red dot and the electronics go down, just use the thing like a big ghost ring. |
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Posted: 12/19/2017 4:35:11 PM EDT
[#13]
I never had a rear sight in any of the M16’s or M4’s I was ever issued in the 5 years in the Marines, just an ACOG.
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Posted: 12/22/2017 7:17:32 PM EDT
[#14]
I run BUIS on every rifle I do or will own
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/25/2017 4:38:39 AM EDT
[#15]
They take up almost no space.
They weigh close to nothing. They're not very expensive at all. There's literally no reason I can think of not to. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 12/25/2017 8:52:03 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm old school, my one and only AR has a FSP, Arms 40L and a variable power scope in a Larue QD mount. I like the irons as much as the optic.
The newest trend is gas blocks (no FSP) under long rails. If I favored this set up, I would probably go with a dot type optic without the BUIS. BUIS without a solid FSP is not the optimum set up for accuracy, if tubes and front BUIS get banged around as much as my FSP I can't see them holding zero. I may add a Red Dot type in the future. I'll put it on a QD mount and keep the irons. |
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Posted: 12/25/2017 9:04:11 AM EDT
[#17]
It's become a habit. Every rifle I've built/owned has BUIS.
I've got a Creedmoor that only gets shot long range. It'll get a set of BUIS as well. No delusions of SHTF/TEOTWAWKI. I just like options and I'm a creature of habit. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 12/25/2017 9:34:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii:
Well, if you put a non-unity telescopic sight on the thing, you can't use iron sights unless you remove the scope, so "back-up iron sight" are of little use unless you also invest in a good quick release-return-to-zero scope mount. BUIS aren't really all that important, here's why (opinions follow): 1) Home defense will be at very short range, like across the room short range, 50' max. You aught to be able to hit a man-sized target at 50' just looking over a red dot. 2) The chances of breaking a well made red dot in the civilian world are small, if you are deployed to the Afghan hills, maybe BUIS are a good idea, in your living room, less so... 3) If you put a 3x scope or greater, on a rifle, it isn't much of a short range weapon anymore, so unless your definition of HD is picking off bad guys running away at 100 meters*, it's not going to be much use in that role. __________________________ * Your local DA might not share that definition with you. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/26/2017 7:23:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Interesting seeing this is an old thread. I wonder what the tally was a few years ago verses today.
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Posted: 12/16/2018 12:19:47 PM EDT
[#20]
I’ve been seriously thinking about leaving backups off lately as I’ve never had a scope or red dot fail. That $200 could go towards a better optic.
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Posted: 12/16/2018 3:03:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackdogGS:
I’ve been seriously thinking about leaving backups off lately as I’ve never had a scope or red dot fail. That $200 could go towards a better optic. I wonder what ever happened to nickforney?? |
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USA
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Posted: 12/16/2018 11:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Knife_Sniper]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alaska511: You can do better than $200. I wonder what ever happened to nickforney?? |
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Posted: 12/22/2018 10:23:03 PM EDT
[#23]
I have one rifle that has only irons...a FSB and a good carry handle, and I can pretty much hit anything I shoot at with it as long as I can see it and identify it.
Rifles with quality prism or LPVO I don't bother with backup irons, but definitely with a red dot of any kind. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2018 1:54:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FoxValleyTacDriver]
[#24]
I have rifles with and without back up irons. I prefer to have them but I don't think they are a necessity.
The argument I see often is that you're going to want it if your optic goes down in a home defense scenario. I'm not drinking the koolaid on this one. If someone breaks into your house they are going to be at most 20 ft. away. Have any of you ever tried shooting your ar with your red dot off before? You'd be amazed to see that hitting a target at 25 yards consistently with the dot off is easy. Hell I can pull all the optics and irons off of any of my rifles and hit a target at 25 yards consistently. If you cant hit a target 10 ft away from you like this then I'd recommend getting out and shooting more often. (Fun fact, I actually have started running just irons on alot of my rifles, with enough practice, it's just as fast as an aimpoint, and it never fails!) The only time I don't run backups is when I have an ACOG on. I can't get good eye relief unless its all the way back on the flat top. As far as price of the backups. My favorite are troy flip ups. But i can hit a target just as well with mbus. I'd check the EE. Lots of good flip ups used for cheap. I've got a spare MaTech if you're interested. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:47:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnNYPD]
[#25]
No Discussion Needed
Range Toy - BUIS Not Needed. SHTF / Work Rifle - BUIS Needed. |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 1:50:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnNYPD:
No Discussion Needed Range Toy - BUIS Not Needed. SHTF / Work Rifle - BUIS Needed. @johnNYPD |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 4:12:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JessBrie:
What optic/mount combo are you using for your work rifle? Do you have a maintenance program and log for work that shows torque specs and battery change out schedule? Does your work practice optic failure to swap from your optic to back up aiming devices under a time restraint? Do those time restraints and applications line up in any way with FBI data on use of force over the last 25 years(noting range and type of altercation)? @johnNYPD Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JessBrie:
Originally Posted By JohnNYPD:
No Discussion Needed Range Toy - BUIS Not Needed. SHTF / Work Rifle - BUIS Needed. @johnNYPD |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2019 8:45:54 AM EDT
[#28]
quality optic , no buis
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2019 8:46:53 AM EDT
[#29]
I would run BUIS on the platform. For me, I have Magpul BUIS, not the lightest or lowest of profile, but reliable and functioning for a decent price. Having BUIS on my rifle with an optic gives me peace of mind, so, in the event an issue arises with the optic, I have a secondary method of accurate deployment of the rifle. Secondly, when using a Magnified optic, I like having the ability to have non magnified sights in the event of close engagements. I'm always in the mindset of better to have and not need, than need and not have...
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Posted: 1/25/2019 10:36:06 AM EDT
[#30]
I run backup irons on all but one of my ARs. The one with the big scope. I'd opt to grab a back up AR before going to irons. 2 is 1 and 1 is none.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2019 2:54:06 PM EDT
[#31]
On my rifles that are meant for HD, they all have qd mounts or rds on them with buis , without either a qd mount or rds i dont see much of a purpose because you wouldnt be able fo use them
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Posted: 1/28/2019 6:10:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Combat_Diver]
[#32]
My two cents worth.....
On a dedicated hunting rifle with a 3-15x is too much magnification for HD. You didn't mention anything about a quick release mount which is going to cost more than a BUIS. I would take that money and for around $300-400 put together a decent second rifle with irons for a KISS/HD gun. PSA has carbine kits for $259 and add a $50 lower, $40 BUIS/Carrying Handle and a mag and your good to go for HD. CD |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2019 4:14:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brx123:
On my rifles that are meant for HD, they all have qd mounts or rds on them with buis , without either a qd mount or rds i dont see much of a purpose because you wouldnt be able fo use them |
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USA
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Posted: 1/31/2019 11:05:47 PM EDT
[#34]
I have health insurance, auto insurance, homeowners insurance & life insurance... Ive already used 3 out of 4 & am guaranteed to use #4
 Ill invest a couple hundred, just for insurance sake
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Posted: 1/31/2019 11:09:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45FMJoe]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Crash41984:
I have Troy BUIS on all of my guns that have optics... I have not zeroed the BUIS on any of my guns that have optics. I'm an asshole. |
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Posted: 2/4/2019 3:51:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Get some Tacticon sights for $30 and call it a day. It’s just two points in a straight line, they literally aren’t rocket science.
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Posted: 2/5/2019 10:13:09 AM EDT
[#37]
Build to your budget without iron sights.
Add them at a later date when you have the money. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/5/2019 9:45:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Overkill777:
Build to your budget without iron sights. Add them at a later date when you have the money. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/5/2019 11:59:05 PM EDT
[#39]
6/18/2015
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:38:58 AM EDT
[#40]
In your scenario, no. Nothing there requires batteries to operate. It’s rare that glass fails, in a hunting rifle even more rare.
If that $1500 rifle had a rds or night vision then I would say yes, he needs a set of sights. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:52:29 AM EDT
[#41]
NEEED? On a hunting rifle like he describe? Not at all. They're handy to have in the rare case optics go down, but it's not a necessity by any means. If you want one wait till PSA has their $50 shipped for a set of MBUS sights and slap those on there, otherwise you'll be fine.
Any gun I think might have a CHANCE of being a fighting gun gets BUISI or Irons no matter what though. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/7/2019 1:29:47 PM EDT
[#42]
On my ar pistol i installed Daniel Defense front and rear sights. when built i hadn't considered putting a red dot on it so i went with the fixed sights.
Recently i picked up a holosun hs510c that with the included mount is an absolute cowitness. i am considering, based on the application of the rifle = range toy or self defense, to cut off the small aperture completely so when flipped there isn't anything obscuring the red dot. i know i will have to leave some of it so i can still flip it to the large aperture if the red dot goes down. does that make sense? has anyone had similar experience? should i do it? thanks Ben |
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Posted: 2/8/2019 8:49:04 AM EDT
[#43]
In the Op's scenario which is dual usage, I'd say yes only if the optic has a quick release return to zero mount. This way he could remove the optic when the roles shift for his home defense role from the hunting role, reality is the guy needs two rifles as 2 is 1 and 1 is none.
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Posted: 2/18/2019 12:39:15 PM EDT
[#44]
I run BUIS on all my stuff with red dots even though I haven't had one fail. It makes sense to me.
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Posted: 3/6/2019 9:51:42 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Diver:
My two cents worth..... On a dedicated hunting rifle with a 3-15x is too much magnification for HD. You didn't mention anything about a quick release mount which is going to cost more than a BUIS. I would take that money and for around $300-400 put together a decent second rifle with irons for a KISS/HD gun. PSA has carbine kits for $259 and add a $50 lower, $40 BUIS/Carrying Handle and a mag and your good to go for HD. CD  Attached File |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2019 4:12:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Do I need this rifle to work, no matter what? If the answer is yes, then a little redundancy/added weight is probably a fair compromise.
If the worst thing that could happen is I get to the range and have to turn around and go home because I don't have an acceptable sighting system; then "oh well." If it's my hunting/bug out/SHTF/the wring person becomes become president/France invades/etc gun; I could see BUIS being desireable. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2019 1:18:35 PM EDT
[#47]
One thing to consider is that you cannot vet an optic by shooting at the range. On two separate occasions, I had cheap optics that survived hundreds of rounds of range use without incident crap out partway through running a drill in the Texas sun.
You can't know whether your gear is crap or not until you add running, stress, time constraints, heat, etc., and that goes for any and all gear. I have a shelf full of stuff that was supposedly the duck's nuts (mag holders, flashlights, battle dongs, optics, etc.) that all sucked when trying to use them under stress. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2019 12:12:22 AM EDT
[#48]
If it's your SHTF rifle... 100% yes and any magnified optic must be on a QD mount.
If it's a hunting or competition rifle.... no If it's a range blaster you beat up.... no Reason for all above and question to ask is. If the optic fails is your life on the line? Yes=yes BUIS No=No BUIS |
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Posted: 5/18/2019 11:33:51 AM EDT
[#49]
I've always subscribed to the mantra.. "Luck favors the prepared"
It has always served me well. I don't own a "hobby" gun....I treat every firearm the same way and assume that it may be the one I need for the purpose I cannot predict. So all two of my AR's get Back up irons. I most likely will complete my life and never need them....I'm OK with that. If I could predict the future...Then I could avoid the need for firearms entirely. |
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Posted: 5/20/2019 9:01:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CaptainOverkill:
If it's your SHTF rifle... 100% yes and any magnified optic must be on a QD mount. I dont like qd mounts. If I can't run regular irons at 12 o'clock because of an optic, I go with 45 degree offset sights. |
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