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Posted: 3/17/2015 11:17:17 PM EDT
| I am trimming out the safe. If you were going to have only one AR. What bolt carrier would you run? I understand you get what you pay for but who has the BCG that is better than others. |
Internet myth!!!!!!! I would buy a Mil-Spec BCG and wouldn't worry about all the high tech coating and the latest and greatest components. Have any idea how many millions of rounds have been fired with just the plain old Mil-Spec carriers? If you buy into these fancy and pretty finishes that is fine with me, just saying it isn't needed , especially if you use quality lubricants. 
NCH |
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LMT-Enhanced BCG and Carrier. Different steel, balanced extractor design, many small improvements. If you want the best, I believe they are the best that fits into a standard AR15. KAC has an excellent design, but it uses a proprietary barrel extension. You asked for the best. Now if you want a good quality BCG on a budget then I would look at Toolcraft. |
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Internet myth!!!!!!! I would buy a Mil-Spec BCG and wouldn't worry about all the high tech coating and the latest and greatest components. Have any idea how many millions of rounds have been fired with just the plain old Mil-Spec carriers? If you buy into these fancy and pretty finishes that is fine with me, just saying it isn't needed , especially if you use quality lubricants.
NCH While I agree that theres nothing wrong with phosphate finish and I have use phos. bcg to great success, I think it is important to note that the ar15 was developed with a hard chrome bcg and was switched to phosphate to cut costs, and this is a decision that was not popular among those that designed the weapon. The inside of an upper receiver is an area with a lot of friction and heat, and so long as the coating is as durable as phosphate, I can see nothing but good things coming from a coating that decreases friction in a critical area of the firearms operation. Worst case scenario it does nothing more that ease cleaning, best case scenario it decreases wear on critical operating surfaces and makes the guns operation feel nice and slick. I certainly don't think that it means you can skimp on the lube, and I don't think all coatings are created equal. I also recognize that some of these coatings are put on poor quality parts or are applied improperly resulting in a worse product than a regular bcg. However there are good examples out there and if I was going to have ONE ar, I think I would invest the money in getting a quality bcg and send it off for coating because that gun would see a lot of rounds and at the very least it makes it easier to clean, and for that reason alone it would be worth it to me. |
I don't make a big thing of it.
20150317_101247(0) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr The difference in smoothness between a fancy coating and phosphate is about 100 rounds. |
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I've gotten a couple BCM BCG's due to the recent promo, and also have a WMD Nickle Boron, which I like. It's not about running no lube, it's the crazy quick and easy cleanup that works for me. I run the WMD in a S&W/Troy build, but will keep the BCM BCG's with their respective uppers I reckon. I have the original S&W(LMT) as a spare. Been pleased with the WMD, I thought about buying more for the BCM builds, but it's hard to argue with a free BCM BCG. |
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Internet myth!!!!!!! I would buy a Mil-Spec BCG and wouldn't worry about all the high tech coating and the latest and greatest components. Have any idea how many millions of rounds have been fired with just the plain old Mil-Spec carriers? If you buy into these fancy and pretty finishes that is fine with me, just saying it isn't needed , especially if you use quality lubricants.
NCH I agree. I have a JP full mass BCG and it is extremely nice but not necessary. ... just makes it easier to clean. It is machined perfectly, polished before coating and QPQ coated and is unbelievable how slick and smooth the finish is. It makes cleaning much easier... don't really need any cleaner.....more oil will clean it off. Very nice BCG but just pretty and easier to clean. |
| I define BEST bcg from a mfg vetted, tested and trusted. I would trust colt, daniel defense, lmt, fn and bcm. I also own bcgs like the lmt enhanced and lantac enhanced bcg. Those two are for use in dedicated suppressed rifles. They have certain features that improve performance in suppressed ars. |
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Anyone ever use Ares or AIM? Guys at work bought a few and were impressed. Fwiw, I have a NIB Ares and its by far my best finished and smoothest running BCG. Best thing, was it was only $79(from $225) last holiday season. Very pleased. The only BCG I've ever ever had issues with(thats since 1978) that I feel is indeed issues with it, is a PSA I got over the holidays(Black Friday $79). Regardless of which rifle I use it in, I get random FTFs..going back to just 2 days ago. Swap it out to anything else, and the rifle again runs fine. Seems noticelably tight between the bolt and carrier. I keep waiting for it to break in... 
ETA:I feel its not about the "no lube needed" thing (which I'd never ever do) regarding a NIB(or chrome for that matter) finish. Its about just being a slicker harder finish overall to begin with. Figure all things otherwise equal, the NIB BCG surely would run at least somewhat longer between cleanings/lube before starting to have issues. Having said that, I have some Colt BCGs from the late 70s(SP1 and another FA) that neither have ever had an issue to date. Zero. Nada. |
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Best? Going to be a lot of opinion in the reply's... Here's mine.
I would put in a Young National Match BCG. http://www.rainierarms.com/young-mfg-national-match-bolt-carrier-group-6918 I personally run WMD NiB and most recently added a Toolcraft phosphate and it's been flawless. So I would also consider any of the Cryptic Coatings BCG's which are Toolcraft. http://www.crypticcoatings.com/coated-bolt-carrier-group/ |
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The Young's had some issues with oversized dims at one time on the NM carriers, which caused sluggish cyclic rate and Failure to Feed malf's. I have a Young's slickside for one of my retro projects that is GTG, aside from the bottom raceway rails being about half the width of a Mil-spec carrier.
Stoner thought the Army was retarded for demanding a non-hard chromed BCG, since he designed the whole operating system to run with a hard chromed BCG. Coefficient of friction is improved with a hard chromed assembly, although generous lubrication maintained seems to do as well. Because of people calling these aspect of the gun into question, we're seeing more companies claim and sourcing the correct materials for BCG's, but processes, dims, heat treating, and QC still are questionable on many of the parts on the market. There are a lot of critical dimensions on bolt carriers that get overlooked by the after-market, then labeled "better", when they fail to meet the basic critical dims of the TDP. Examples include the 3 critical internal bore diameters in the carrier that align, seal, and guide the bolt & gas rings: 
Then there is gas vent hole size and location. Then rail OD's, widths, and lengths. Then look at the cam pin track. How many companies for years used garbage carrier keys with no chrome lining, and too hard of a steel, not knowing what the TDP said on this? How many shops seal the carrier key to the carrier, use clean threads, quality fasteners, a torque wrench, and an optimum staking tool? The assumption when I was younger was that other companies got all this right. In reality, most don't know or care to know, as long as their parts look the same and function enough for the bottom end of their target market, with many companies specifically catering to the bottom end customer who simply takes pics of his rifles, and maybe plinks on occasion on dry, warm days at a clean range. My personal guns get abused just because of the types of training that I conduct, and the fact that I will bring no less than 3 back-up carbines to any given course attests to that. We needed 2 of them at my last Winter DM Course. One Noveske had been run dry with Wolf and Frog Lube, and gummed the chamber up so that once it cooled, even brass-cased ammunition would not extract at all. Had to be rodded. Another home-build had an aluminum gas block used for the project, which made it through Day 1, but choked on the morning of Day 2, with about an inch of gas leakage visible forward on the barrel, right after I told the owner that he was going to have problems with the aluminum gas block in the near future. For Mil-spec carriers, I personally like BCM, but I have also recently built up a carrier using a Brownell's part. We'll see how it runs over the next few years before I can make a substantive assessment of it. For polished surface carriers, I've had great success with a pre-1963 Model 601 or 602 hard chromed carrier that's in my 605. I've also used WMD Guns and Failzero BCG's and am conducting long-term end-user evaluation of them in Arctic conditions shooting high volume. If you can get FN BCG's, they are top notch as well. I personally didn't have a lot of issues with Colt and FN rifles and carbines in the Army, covering a 10-year period and at least 4 of the Theaters of Command around the globe, to include PACOM, SOUTHCOM, CENTCOM, and NORTHCOM. My favorite BCG right now is a black nitride group in one of my 6.5 Grendel's. My 16" Grendel has a BCM bolt carrier. Neither gun malf on me. |
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My requirements would be these and in this order:
1. Real M-16 mil-spec (no machine cuts, properly staked gas key) 2. High pressure tested, shot peened, and particle inspected. 3. Fail Zero NIB coated (makes cleaning way easier, increases life span, may increase reliability) Then I would buy some extra top quality BCG maintenance parts. i.e. high temp springs and gas rings, extra firing pin, extra extractor. |
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My $.02 buy a quality mil-spec BCG and keep it lubed.
Even the best of them fail eventually that is why you should have a backup one in reserve somewhere. BCM DD Spikes AIM etc etc all make BCG that are good to go. Hell you might even be able to catch a couple of BCG's on AIM and have a couple of backups. |
| This topic comes up quite often. Toolcraft BCGs are GTG, one of the OEM suppliers for the military and also many retailers (no definite list, but I know Toolcraft has supplied Colt, FN, Bushmaster, and Fulton Armory). NiB is overhyped. BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt, etc. Buy a top tier BCG, you won't have to worry about anything. |
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Gotta say this....BCM is a marketing whore. Nothing special but that their name is plastered everywhere. Oh, they also have a shithouse full of "special ops" guys full of cool tattoos who will video train you to be an operator. Here's a BCM BCG:
Carpenter 158 steel bolt Shot peened HPT and MPI Mag phosphate coated Full auto 8620 steel carrier Chrome lined bore Mag phosphate coated Tool steel extractor Black insert Crane O-ring BCM Spring <------ remember this one Hardened gas key Grade 8 fasteners Staked per mil spec Chrome lined So, after you cut through all the times they use "TO USGI SPECIFICTIONS" or "PER MILSPEC" this is what you have for $170 (current price). Do not mistake that this is a top quality BCG....the problem is PSA sells the EXACT SAME BCG for $110!! Minus the "BCM extractor spring" which you can buy for $4 and comes with a crane o-ring. I don't dislike BCM just tired of hearing about them being the "best". Stick to those specs, from anywhere cheaper, and buy some ammo. |
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Quoted:While I agree that theres nothing wrong with phosphate finish and I have use phos. bcg to great success, I think it is important to note that the ar15 was developed with a hard chrome bcg and was switched to phosphate to cut costs, and this is a decision that was not popular among those that designed the weapon. The inside of an upper receiver is an area with a lot of friction and heat, and so long as the coating is as durable as phosphate, I can see nothing but good things coming from a coating that decreases friction in a critical area of the firearms operation. Worst case scenario it does nothing more that ease cleaning, best case scenario it decreases wear on critical operating surfaces and makes the guns operation feel nice and slick.
I certainly don't think that it means you can skimp on the lube, and I don't think all coatings are created equal. I also recognize that some of these coatings are put on poor quality parts or are applied improperly resulting in a worse product than a regular bcg. However there are good examples out there and if I was going to have ONE ar, I think I would invest the money in getting a quality bcg and send it off for coating because that gun would see a lot of rounds and at the very least it makes it easier to clean, and for that reason alone it would be worth it to me. The hard chrome was dropped due to problems with hydrogen enbrittlement. High strength alloys are more prone to this problem. Since the chrome plating was only essential in the piston cavity and carrier key cavity, only those critical area were plated. |
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I define BEST bcg from a mfg vetted, tested and trusted. I would trust colt, daniel defense, lmt, fn and bcm. I also own bcgs like the lmt enhanced and lantac enhanced bcg. Those two are for use in dedicated suppressed rifles. They have certain features that improve performance in suppressed ars. All of my rifles are suppressed. When I make my first AR purchase, it will be suppressed. Could you elaborate on the special features that make those BCGs good for suppressed ARs? |
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Quoted: All of my rifles are suppressed. When I make my first AR purchase, it will be suppressed. Could you elaborate on the special features that make those BCGs good for suppressed ARs? Quoted: Quoted: I define BEST bcg from a mfg vetted, tested and trusted. I would trust colt, daniel defense, lmt, fn and bcm. I also own bcgs like the lmt enhanced and lantac enhanced bcg. Those two are for use in dedicated suppressed rifles. They have certain features that improve performance in suppressed ars. All of my rifles are suppressed. When I make my first AR purchase, it will be suppressed. Could you elaborate on the special features that make those BCGs good for suppressed ARs? I don't know about the lantac, but LMT changed the cam slot slightly to increase the time before the bolt unlocks. They also added a third gas vent so excess pressure bleeds off faster after the bolt unlocks. The LMT-E bolt is cut from Aeromet steel and has a dual spring lobster tail style ejector. |
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I don't know about the lantac, but LMT changed the cam slot slightly to increase the time before the bolt unlocks. They also added a third gas vent so excess pressure bleeds off faster after the bolt unlocks. The LMT-E bolt is cut from Aeromet steel and has a dual spring lobster tail style ejector. Quoted:
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I define BEST bcg from a mfg vetted, tested and trusted. I would trust colt, daniel defense, lmt, fn and bcm. I also own bcgs like the lmt enhanced and lantac enhanced bcg. Those two are for use in dedicated suppressed rifles. They have certain features that improve performance in suppressed ars. All of my rifles are suppressed. When I make my first AR purchase, it will be suppressed. Could you elaborate on the special features that make those BCGs good for suppressed ARs? I don't know about the lantac, but LMT changed the cam slot slightly to increase the time before the bolt unlocks. They also added a third gas vent so excess pressure bleeds off faster after the bolt unlocks. The LMT-E bolt is cut from Aeromet steel and has a dual spring lobster tail style ejector. Thank you. |
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I agree. I have a JP full mass BCG and it is extremely nice but not necessary. ... just makes it easier to clean. It is machined perfectly, polished before coating and QPQ coated and is unbelievable how slick and smooth the finish is. It makes cleaning much easier... don't really need any cleaner.....more oil will clean it off. Very nice BCG but just pretty and easier to clean. Quoted:
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Internet myth!!!!!!! I would buy a Mil-Spec BCG and wouldn't worry about all the high tech coating and the latest and greatest components. Have any idea how many millions of rounds have been fired with just the plain old Mil-Spec carriers? If you buy into these fancy and pretty finishes that is fine with me, just saying it isn't needed , especially if you use quality lubricants.
NCH I agree. I have a JP full mass BCG and it is extremely nice but not necessary. ... just makes it easier to clean. It is machined perfectly, polished before coating and QPQ coated and is unbelievable how slick and smooth the finish is. It makes cleaning much easier... don't really need any cleaner.....more oil will clean it off. Very nice BCG but just pretty and easier to clean. QPQ is not a coating!!! It is a surface metal treatment where the medal is changed at the molecular level.!!!! NiB doesn't even come close!!! I wouldn't buy anything "coated". |
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QPQ is not a coating!!! It is a surface metal treatment where the medal is changed at the molecular level.!!!! NiB doesn't even come close!!! I wouldn't buy anything "coated". Quoted:
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Internet myth!!!!!!! I would buy a Mil-Spec BCG and wouldn't worry about all the high tech coating and the latest and greatest components. Have any idea how many millions of rounds have been fired with just the plain old Mil-Spec carriers? If you buy into these fancy and pretty finishes that is fine with me, just saying it isn't needed , especially if you use quality lubricants.
NCH I agree. I have a JP full mass BCG and it is extremely nice but not necessary. ... just makes it easier to clean. It is machined perfectly, polished before coating and QPQ coated and is unbelievable how slick and smooth the finish is. It makes cleaning much easier... don't really need any cleaner.....more oil will clean it off. Very nice BCG but just pretty and easier to clean. QPQ is not a coating!!! It is a surface metal treatment where the medal is changed at the molecular level.!!!! NiB doesn't even come close!!! I wouldn't buy anything "coated". So, you are saying that chrome lined (coated), plated, milspec barrels are horse crap? I just want to understand your hyperbole. Now, permit me to explain my own position without hyperbole or multiple exclamation marks. QPQ SN (black nitride, Melonite™, Tennifer™, and other trade names) is an amazing process for surface hardening of steel. I strongly support and use it for barrels, but not for BCGs. There are metallurgical reasons for the distinction. Because it is a surface hardening of the steel at the molecular level, it leaves the contours and dimensions of the part unaltered. This is perfect for preserving the exact dimensions of a rifle bore and pristine rifling. This preserves accuracy. Chrome lined barrels can have the plating applied unevenly which can degrade accuracy. You will not see chrome lined barrels on the firing line at any serious rifle competition, if the rules permit any other choice. You will see nitride barrels. Even top national benchrest shooters are having their uber expensive stainless match barrels nitrided. Why? Because the hardness dramatically extends barrel life. However, where gilt edged accuracy is not required, chrome lined barrels may still have an advantage. We have good data about the extreme durability of chrome lined barrels in harsh high round count environments. The data on nitride barrels is still emerging and it is difficult to make comparisons. The Rockwell hardness of hard chrome and of QPQ SN are similar. Depending of the qualities of the steel, nitride hardening can approach that of chrome, or can be somewhat less. This variation frustrates comparisons. In theory round count should be similar, all other factors being equal. The second feature of nitride, particularly the QPQ variation, is its superior corrosion protection. At the risk of unintended hyperbole, nothing else seems to even come close. Not stainless, not nickel alloys, not chrome. It is over 10 times more resistant than hard chrome to corrosion from salt water immersion. Because the process treats an entire barrel, not just the bore, the exterior surface is highly resistant to both corrosion and scratching or abrasion. There is a down side. This will also apply to BCGs, which I will address in a moment. To do the best form of deep penetration into the substrate, the salt bath immersion temperatures are very close to the temperatures that will cause steel to lose its temper. Those temps can also cause mechanically attached separate parts to lose the torque spec of their attachment fasteners. Stated plainly, barrel extensions and barrels should not be assembled and torqued before treatment. Now, to BCGs. They have much different requirements than barrels. These are part assemblies that slide, glide and rotate, metal against metal. Superior lubricity of underlying parts of varying types grades, hardness and function is the primary goal. A secondary goal is corrosion protection. Pristine dimensions (less than .001") variation is not a factor. It is in this environment of the operation of a firing and cycling BCG that dry lubrication coating with superior lubricity makes sense. What you want is an "oil" that is permanent and which does not penetrate the substrate, not affecting inherent hardness or temper. This is where nickel-boron, NiB, shines. It has much greater lubricity than QPQ SN. It has high corrosion resistance, much better than phosphate, but not as good as QPQ. It is ideal for metal-on-metal sliding and rotating surfaces where both must have long life, and where reduced friction is desired. It does not impose a risk of changing the temper of the substrate. It can be applied thick in high wear areas without concern of adverse effect of minor thickness variations, because tolerances are looser. It has been shown to be suitable to serve as a completely dry lube, if required, running for thousands of cycles with no wet lube applied. Even so, prudence suggests normal lubrication as with any other BCG. Full synthetic oils are perfect for this. The downside of NiB is that only a few companies know how to do it well. There are a lot of companies trying it. Many have quality control issues. Some are skimping on the underlying parts in BCGs using non-milspec components, and/or not assembling them to milspec QC. This is why NiB BCGs vary in quality, as do nitride ones. Ultimately, you want your rifle to be as accurate as it can be and to be as reliable as possible under the most extreme conditions. Ease of cleaning is a nice benefit from either process, but should be a secondary factor. Having said that, NiB BCGs just wipe clean. There is no universal treatment that is best for rifle parts as different as a barrel and a BCG. Match the surface treatment to the characteristics and use of the part: Barrels: QPQ SN from a reputable company. BCGs: NiB plating over the best milspec components from one of the few companies that really know how to do this. WMD and Fail Zero come to mind. I chose WMD. Given the importance, don't cheap out. This is one area where you do get what you pay for. |
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Anyone have an opinion on the Rainier Arms BCGs? Their other AR products have a good reputation and the company does too. Really like mine. 3k or so rounds with zero problems and little wear. Not as pretty as some of the NIB, Chrome, or others but the machine work is very clean. |
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Really like mine. 3k or so rounds with zero problems and little wear. Not as pretty as some of the NIB, Chrome, or others but the machine work is very clean. Quoted:
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Anyone have an opinion on the Rainier Arms BCGs? Their other AR products have a good reputation and the company does too. Really like mine. 3k or so rounds with zero problems and little wear. Not as pretty as some of the NIB, Chrome, or others but the machine work is very clean. Thanks. That's good to know. I think I'll pick one up for a mini-recce build. |
| I've got three of the WMD Guns NB BCG groups, no issues with any of them. MS566 covers this in greater detail, and I've posted this before, it's not so much about the "no lube" marketing point for me - I run lube on all mine, typically SLIP products - although less than I would a normal phosphate-coated... It's the easy cleanup that impresses me. WMD is solid gear, imo. I've read Rainier, Spikes, FZ are all sourced from WMD anyway, but don't know for sure. |
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