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Originally Posted By lysanderxiii:
Just a note about free floating... As mentioned the barrel whips during the bullets travel down the bore and the simplest way to minimize variation in whip position at bullet exit is to free float the barrel. There is also another way. Changing the harmonics of the barrel by preloading or biasing it. This method is used on NM M14s and NN M1s. With lightweight barrel profiles, free floating usually is not the best option if you have a full stock, but in an AR type weapon you can't preload the barrel. I'd argue that free floating the barrel is going to produce the most consistent results. |
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I don't have an AR that is not free-floated. I do have a very accurate, heavy-barreled .22 that is not free-floated. I see 4 moa+ point of impact shifts when shifting from a slung-up, high-tension shooting position or a properly tensioned bi-pod to a shooting position that does not put pressure on the barrel. I would expect ARs to perform similarly. This kind of shift will easily produce misses on man-sized targets at 200 yards and beyond. (You'll miss squirrel heads at 25.) If your shooting doesn't involve stressing the barrel, then free floating might not be that big of deal. For me, free floating is an easy way to eliminate a variable. The more variables I can eliminate, the better.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:
Or use 320's standalone, as God intended them to be. Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
I suppose you could skip upgrading the grenadiers practically speaking. Or use 320's standalone, as God intended them to be. 320 is AIDs. 203 is the only acceptable rifle mounted grenade launcher for the TL types. For stand alone, go m32 or go home. |
Woobies are better than pussy. I just went 80 days using mine without a wash and it didnt smell too bad. Try that with a vagina.
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Originally Posted By wag_bag:
320 is AIDs. 203 is the only acceptable rifle mounted grenade launcher for the TL types. For stand alone, go m32 or go home. Originally Posted By wag_bag:
Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
I suppose you could skip upgrading the grenadiers practically speaking. Or use 320's standalone, as God intended them to be. 320 is AIDs. 203 is the only acceptable rifle mounted grenade launcher for the TL types. For stand alone, go m32 or go home. Meh, under barrel mounted Mk 19. Go big or go home. You might need an offroad shopping cart to move your weapon around on patrols, and to hold both of your giant nutsacks for being badass enough to carry the above.  
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In the absence of a plan, move toward the sound of gunfire and kill everything.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
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back on topic please I took my 14.5 lightweight AR with Iron sights and standard handguards to a carbine match today. Head shots on silhouettes at 45 yards were required. No problem  |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW: I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all Agreed. My "combat carbine" is wearing a KAC M4 RAS and GI A2 irons, and I can consistently hit an echo silhouette target at 500 yards with IMI M855, and in the past I've had similar results on reduced silhouettes. Not trying to brag, but you're right; a free-floated handguard is not needed. However, it doesn't hurt either. In this day and age of quality and affordable free-float handguards, it will only help a shooter be more precise. I agree on the your recommendations as well. One thing that really woke me up to my "combat" effectiveness was shooting the NRA's NDM (National Defense Match) at Perry one year. We were required to shoot from 7 yards out to 500 (7, 15, 30, 60, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500), and form 30 or 60 yards and in, you had five colored targets that you had to shoot a certain number of times, in a certain order. Talk about making you use your noggin. Then at the longer ranges, we were shooting a D1 tombstone target. I learned a great deal from practicing for that match, and shooting it. Prior to that match, I had never shot my AR past 200 yards, and never closer than 25 or so. I wish that match was still being pushed by the NRA, as it was a great way for newer and older shooters to get out and see what they could really do. ETA: Great thread nickforney. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. |
"One is a Colt, the other is not. Colt has always been known for quality where it counts, not for its level of fit and finish. " - Stickman
Nick, I thought you were one of those shortwinded types! Boy was I wrong!
Seriously, good work and this is a great thread that hopefully a lot of new and old shooters will find and read. Your discussion on accuracy and precision is a good one. It is my opinion that many shooters do not understand the need for accuracy, spending most of their time shooting for group as opposed to needing to hit a demanding target. Related, I have seen many shifts in shooting culture occur over my lifetime and one of them that seems to have come along with mil-similar semiauto rifles is reference to getting "hits" as opposed to placing a shot very specifically. This I believe is due to the lack of hunting experience among many who own such rifles and maybe due to the prevalence of military or other shooting disciplines that do not emphasize a hard zero and tight grouping. As for the carbine, I find a lot to agree with MRW. And with your emphasis on actually SHOOTING, not just "collecting" ammo... We here shoot a lot of varmints. Thousands. The main quarry is the little Columbia ground squirrel and for many years I used very accurate bolt rifles. Then some years ago I got my first AR, a stock Smith M&P with a 6 lb trigger and of course standard handguards. This rifle will do 2-2.5 inch 5-shot groups from the bench at 100 METERS {109 yards} with my handloads and from my normal field position of sitting, elbows rested on knees, about 2.5-3 inches from the same range for 5-shot groups and 3.5 inches for 15 shots as noted on the SHTF Challenge. That's right, I shoot that rifle just a little less accurately from my field position as from the bench. And placing single shots very accurately. Long story short, I found the AR carbine was not much of a disadvantage for me in shooting varmints at less than 150 meters. The kill zone on a squirrel is more or less the whole squirrel, but it is nonetheless very small. If the carbine is adequate for killing them, it is adequate for a lot more purposes than commonly supposed. And that is a factory carbine, heavy-triggered and choked by handguards. The key is getting away from the bench rest or other supported positions and shooting the thing from field positions. And that is the moral of the story. we use the bench rarely and then only to zero after which we fine tune the zero from our sitting position. Bench shooting does NOT teach skills very useful to shooting in the field. Here's a plug for the SHTF Challenge. All are invited to head on over and shoot it! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By EVR: Nick, I thought you were one of those shortwinded types! Boy was I wrong! Seriously, good work and this is a great thread that hopefully a lot of new and old shooters will find and read. Your discussion on accuracy and precision is a good one. It is my opinion that many shooters do not understand the need for accuracy, spending most of their time shooting for group as opposed to needing to hit a demanding target. Related, I have seen many shifts in shooting culture occur over my lifetime and one of them that seems to have come along with mil-similar semiauto rifles is reference to getting "hits" as opposed to placing a shot very specifically. This I believe is due to the lack of hunting experience among many who own such rifles and maybe due to the prevalence of military or other shooting disciplines that do not emphasize a hard zero and tight grouping. As for the carbine, I find a lot to agree with MRW. And with your emphasis on actually SHOOTING, not just "collecting" ammo... We here shoot a lot of varmints. Thousands. The main quarry is the little Columbia ground squirrel and for many years I used very accurate bolt rifles. Then some years ago I got my first AR, a stock Smith M&P with a 6 lb trigger and of course standard handguards. This rifle will do 2-2.5 inch 5-shot groups from the bench at 100 METERS {109 yards} with my handloads and from my normal field position of sitting, elbows rested on knees, about 2.5-3 inches from the same range for 5-shot groups and 3.5 inches for 15 shots as noted on the SHTF Challenge. That's right, I shoot that rifle just a little less accurately from my field position as from the bench. And placing single shots very accurately. Long story short, I found the AR carbine was not much of a disadvantage for me in shooting varmints at less than 150 meters. The kill zone on a squirrel is more or less the whole squirrel, but it is nonetheless very small. If the carbine is adequate for killing them, it is adequate for a lot more purposes than commonly supposed. And that is a factory carbine, heavy-triggered and choked by handguards. The key is getting away from the bench rest or other supported positions and shooting the thing from field positions. And that is the moral of the story. we use the bench rarely and then only to zero after which we fine tune the zero from our sitting position. Bench shooting does NOT teach skills very useful to shooting in the field. Here's a plug for the SHTF Challenge. All are invited to head on over and shoot it! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html I agree with you EVR, accept that part in bold. I'm a hunter too, who spends a lot of time shooting varmints. I've also been spending a lot more time at the bench as of late, due to testing various products to write about. Shooting well at the bench can help in other disciplines too. Anytime you work on marksmanship, it will cross over to other disciplines. Practicing breathing and trigger control, follow through, etc. will help you no matter what position you are shooting from; and it does help when you're out in the field, in my humble opinion. Also, thanks for the reminder. I still need to shoot that challenge. I'll try to get that done right away, I still have the target file I made up for you guys. |
"One is a Colt, the other is not. Colt has always been known for quality where it counts, not for its level of fit and finish. " - Stickman
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Originally Posted By Muad:
I agree with you EVR, accept that part in bold. I'm a hunter too, who spends a lot of time shooting varmints. I've also been spending a lot more time at the bench as of late, due to testing various products to write about. Shooting well at the bench can help in other disciplines too. Anytime you work on marksmanship, it will cross over to other disciplines. Practicing breathing and trigger control, follow through, etc. will help you no matter what position you are shooting from; and it does help when you're out in the field, in my humble opinion. Also, thanks for the reminder. I still need to shoot that challenge. I'll try to get that done right away, I still have the target file I made up for you guys. Originally Posted By Muad:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Nick, I thought you were one of those shortwinded types! Boy was I wrong!
Seriously, good work and this is a great thread that hopefully a lot of new and old shooters will find and read. Your discussion on accuracy and precision is a good one. It is my opinion that many shooters do not understand the need for accuracy, spending most of their time shooting for group as opposed to needing to hit a demanding target. Related, I have seen many shifts in shooting culture occur over my lifetime and one of them that seems to have come along with mil-similar semiauto rifles is reference to getting "hits" as opposed to placing a shot very specifically. This I believe is due to the lack of hunting experience among many who own such rifles and maybe due to the prevalence of military or other shooting disciplines that do not emphasize a hard zero and tight grouping. As for the carbine, I find a lot to agree with MRW. And with your emphasis on actually SHOOTING, not just "collecting" ammo... We here shoot a lot of varmints. Thousands. The main quarry is the little Columbia ground squirrel and for many years I used very accurate bolt rifles. Then some years ago I got my first AR, a stock Smith M&P with a 6 lb trigger and of course standard handguards. This rifle will do 2-2.5 inch 5-shot groups from the bench at 100 METERS {109 yards} with my handloads and from my normal field position of sitting, elbows rested on knees, about 2.5-3 inches from the same range for 5-shot groups and 3.5 inches for 15 shots as noted on the SHTF Challenge. That's right, I shoot that rifle just a little less accurately from my field position as from the bench. And placing single shots very accurately. Long story short, I found the AR carbine was not much of a disadvantage for me in shooting varmints at less than 150 meters. The kill zone on a squirrel is more or less the whole squirrel, but it is nonetheless very small. If the carbine is adequate for killing them, it is adequate for a lot more purposes than commonly supposed. And that is a factory carbine, heavy-triggered and choked by handguards. The key is getting away from the bench rest or other supported positions and shooting the thing from field positions. And that is the moral of the story. we use the bench rarely and then only to zero after which we fine tune the zero from our sitting position. Bench shooting does NOT teach skills very useful to shooting in the field. Here's a plug for the SHTF Challenge. All are invited to head on over and shoot it! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html I agree with you EVR, accept that part in bold. I'm a hunter too, who spends a lot of time shooting varmints. I've also been spending a lot more time at the bench as of late, due to testing various products to write about. Shooting well at the bench can help in other disciplines too. Anytime you work on marksmanship, it will cross over to other disciplines. Practicing breathing and trigger control, follow through, etc. will help you no matter what position you are shooting from; and it does help when you're out in the field, in my humble opinion. Also, thanks for the reminder. I still need to shoot that challenge. I'll try to get that done right away, I still have the target file I made up for you guys. I'll grant you the point but defend my thesis. It is totally true that breathing, trigger squeeze and sight alignment all can be acquired and refined at the bench. However, the rest of the physical skills required to shoot from a field position can actually deteriorate if one does the lion's share of their shooting from the bench. On my range we have seen it over and over. I know many people who can shoot well from the bench but are a lost ball in the high weeds when it comes to field positions. If that wasn't true we'd have no more spots left on the SHTF Challenge.
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By EVR: I'll grant you the point but defend my thesis. It is totally true that breathing, trigger squeeze and sight alignment all can be acquired and refined at the bench. However, the rest of the physical skills required to shoot from a field position can actually deteriorate if one does the lion's share of their shooting from the bench. On my range we have seen it over and over. I know many people who can shoot well from the bench but are a lost ball in the high weeds when it comes to field positions. If that wasn't true we'd have no more spots left on the SHTF Challenge. Originally Posted By EVR: Originally Posted By Muad: Originally Posted By EVR: Nick, I thought you were one of those shortwinded types! Boy was I wrong! Seriously, good work and this is a great thread that hopefully a lot of new and old shooters will find and read. Your discussion on accuracy and precision is a good one. It is my opinion that many shooters do not understand the need for accuracy, spending most of their time shooting for group as opposed to needing to hit a demanding target. Related, I have seen many shifts in shooting culture occur over my lifetime and one of them that seems to have come along with mil-similar semiauto rifles is reference to getting "hits" as opposed to placing a shot very specifically. This I believe is due to the lack of hunting experience among many who own such rifles and maybe due to the prevalence of military or other shooting disciplines that do not emphasize a hard zero and tight grouping. As for the carbine, I find a lot to agree with MRW. And with your emphasis on actually SHOOTING, not just "collecting" ammo... We here shoot a lot of varmints. Thousands. The main quarry is the little Columbia ground squirrel and for many years I used very accurate bolt rifles. Then some years ago I got my first AR, a stock Smith M&P with a 6 lb trigger and of course standard handguards. This rifle will do 2-2.5 inch 5-shot groups from the bench at 100 METERS {109 yards} with my handloads and from my normal field position of sitting, elbows rested on knees, about 2.5-3 inches from the same range for 5-shot groups and 3.5 inches for 15 shots as noted on the SHTF Challenge. That's right, I shoot that rifle just a little less accurately from my field position as from the bench. And placing single shots very accurately. Long story short, I found the AR carbine was not much of a disadvantage for me in shooting varmints at less than 150 meters. The kill zone on a squirrel is more or less the whole squirrel, but it is nonetheless very small. If the carbine is adequate for killing them, it is adequate for a lot more purposes than commonly supposed. And that is a factory carbine, heavy-triggered and choked by handguards. The key is getting away from the bench rest or other supported positions and shooting the thing from field positions. And that is the moral of the story. we use the bench rarely and then only to zero after which we fine tune the zero from our sitting position. Bench shooting does NOT teach skills very useful to shooting in the field. Here's a plug for the SHTF Challenge. All are invited to head on over and shoot it! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html I agree with you EVR, accept that part in bold. I'm a hunter too, who spends a lot of time shooting varmints. I've also been spending a lot more time at the bench as of late, due to testing various products to write about. Shooting well at the bench can help in other disciplines too. Anytime you work on marksmanship, it will cross over to other disciplines. Practicing breathing and trigger control, follow through, etc. will help you no matter what position you are shooting from; and it does help when you're out in the field, in my humble opinion. Also, thanks for the reminder. I still need to shoot that challenge. I'll try to get that done right away, I still have the target file I made up for you guys. I'll grant you the point but defend my thesis. It is totally true that breathing, trigger squeeze and sight alignment all can be acquired and refined at the bench. However, the rest of the physical skills required to shoot from a field position can actually deteriorate if one does the lion's share of their shooting from the bench. On my range we have seen it over and over. I know many people who can shoot well from the bench but are a lost ball in the high weeds when it comes to field positions. If that wasn't true we'd have no more spots left on the SHTF Challenge. Well, hopefully I'll fill at least two spots. I packed up the 14.5" Colt M4A1 clone and some m855, and I'll try my hunting/precision rig as well (which is a heavy pig). I'll probably shoot from the sitting. |
"One is a Colt, the other is not. Colt has always been known for quality where it counts, not for its level of fit and finish. " - Stickman
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Precision... Probably more dependent upon a good rest than trigger and ammunition, maybe even barrel....
Shoot with a sling and a shooting coat and you might be amazed. Shoot from a sandbagged benchrest and learn your gun's potential. Probably not as important to have a custom trigger as to know your trigger and have a clean break. Maybe it is Dan Lilja's site that has the info on stainless vs. chrome-moly throat errosion? One of those custom barrelmakers anyways... Deal is once the SS throat goes, the steel begins to come out in chunks. The analogy is that rounds are bumping into pot hole like errosion spots, but rectangular as the steel flakes-out. CM barrels, the analogy goes, crack and look like a dried lake bed; which is to say, the cracks are notable but the surface stays smooth and doesn't have the negative impact on bullet as it travels across the CM surface. Smooth, but cracked; or lost material in relatively deep chunks? Which distorts the smooth travel of bullet more? Once stainless goes; it is gone! At least if you can look at the internals and see what has happened, you see the situation. What really works to deliver precision? Handloaded match ammo and freefloated barrel. Another aspect of the ammunition angle is chamber size, particularly length. Semi-Auto reliability is gonna require .003 to .005 Full Length sizing. A chamber measurement tool, like Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic will show you before/after sizes. If you have a match chambered rifle and are loading also for Colt or other standard 5.56 NATO chamber, you may see over .010 difference in oal of fired cases. Want your Colt NATO barrel to test at its best? Verify the chamber before/after oal and run ammo sized more closely. Your standard ammo will likely be fine, but for best results, you take all the effort you know how to work.... Scope is gonna show best control. Looking to have a precise aiming point, like the corner of a box or diamond. Sight at same exact spot one which is not ambiguous, and you have control. Controls isolate the variables. Using a QD lever attach scope mount? Likely the mount (I know LaRue's are this way), will be 10 to 20 moa OFF CENTER. Your A3/A4 receiver has built-in Pic spec rail. I found that each of the 3 LaRue QD risers I was using aligned every scope mounted by 20moa right. The base is not aligned with muzzle for concentricity. Might have your zero at 100/200 "on", but after that, the 20moa off center mount gives you a horizontally canted bullet path. Got good scope rings? Your base is integral, but precision rings are a must to deliver consistency. Good scope, needless to say, is required for consistency in range of elevation and horizontal turret control. Really interested in Precision shooting? YOU NEED a boresight with collimator grid. I bought a Bushnell 74-3333 about 20yrs ago. Best gun tool I ever bought! You can prove your scope's movements and diagnose problems. Scopes are the most delicate part of the shooting equation. Being able to Prove your rifle, step by step, enables isolation of variables and confidence. Real Precision and rifle mastery results from ability to shoot from a sling or field expedient position. Once your rifle will group off bench or supported position, move to your ability to control it whenever and wherever you need to. Lightweight rifles are typically harder to control, or don't have the float tube and other setup gear that enable continued precision. Maybe a 5lb Grendel would be a fine sheep hunting rifle, but for more than game-taking circumstances, you will need the design features that deliver consistent tight performance. |
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Originally Posted By Hwk-I-St8:
Just to clarify in case I've had this wrong, but I thought the base steel of the chrome lined barrel was chromoly steel and the coating is chrome. 4140 steel is a low-alloy steel containing chromium and molybdenum (and a few other elements) as strengthening agents. Tough steel used for things like motorcycle chains and stuff. The first pair of numbers 41 is what tells you the main elements like 4340 which is chromium, molybdenum and nickel. The last two numbers is the carbon content. The more carbon the harder you can make the part but there is always a trade off in that the harder the part the more brittle it becomes. For you old-old school boys think of it like the 45/70 cartridge. 45 caliber and 70 grains of black powder. |
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Originally Posted By cttb:
Chromoly and chrome plating or lining don't have anything to do with one another. Despite some research, I can't find any real information about how exactly a barrel gets a chrome lining inside of it. Ancient Chinese secret, I guess. Chromium plating falls into two categories decorative and hard. Decorative is for stuff like car bumpers and hard (AKA industrial) is used in firearms. For bores I guess the build up is .0001, never plated barrel ID's. When I've plated firearms (read as Government Work) it was .0001-.0002 thick. Hard chrome leaves a surface of about mid 60's on the Rockwell "C" scale. It has a low friction coefficient and resists rusting. It's a Electroplating process with a cathode and anode. Like when you plated a key in science class. At least I did. It plays well with extreme heat and pressure which is exactly what is happening every time you pull the trigger. |
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I shot my BCM 16" Lightweight Middy again. 100 yards, 10 shots, 10X optic (Not the ACOG). Rifle is "pencil" profile, 0.625 at the gas block, and has a NON free floated CHF chrome lined barrel. 5 breaths between shots, and the barrel got mildly hot. And the 77 was fine but the last shot went way wide. I was in a hurry and pushed it. sucks to be me. Ignoring the screwed up shot, the 77's would produce a group no larger than 6.5 inches at 500 yards, which is well within center-of-chest requirements. Tell me again how I'm doing it wrong? |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I shot my BCM 16" Lightweight Middy again. 100 yards, 10 shots, 10X optic (Not the ACOG). Rifle is "pencil" profile, 0.625 at the gas block, and has a NON free floated CHF chrome lined barrel. 5 breaths between shots, and the barrel got mildly hot. <a href="http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/BCM16LWwACOG15_zps2cf32a71.jpg" target="_blank">http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/BCM16LWwACOG15_zps2cf32a71.jpg</a> Black Hills 69 and 77grain <a href="http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/GM%201-6%20Twist%20Barrel%20test/P1030725_zpspm7fcy4q.jpg" target="_blank">http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/GM%201-6%20Twist%20Barrel%20test/P1030725_zpspm7fcy4q.jpg</a> Was doing well with the 69, first seven shots went into a nice group. then a fly bit me on the heel of the hand when I was shooting the 7th shot and after the battle the last three were down low. And the 77 was fine but the last shot went way wide. I was in a hurry and pushed it. sucks to be me. <a href="http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/7202220201520BCM201620Test2069207720Black20Hills_zps3wnqpiaa.jpg" target="_blank">http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/onehalfmvsquared/hobby/7202220201520BCM201620Test2069207720Black20Hills_zps3wnqpiaa.jpg</a> Ignoring the screwed up shot, the 77's would produce a group no larger than 6.5 inches at 500 yards, which is well within center-of-chest requirements. Tell me again how I'm doing it wrong? I don't think anyone would say you are doing it wrong. Is that an alg act trigger on there? I would say that is darn good shooting but I would say it is bad form to exclude fired shots from your claims. How many rounds of that remanufactured did you grab and what kind of price was it? |
On average I post two gems a day. Above you see one of those marvels of internet posting.
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Yes, ALG tigger. And the thrown shot was definitely my fault on the 77's. I think the bottom three on the 69 were questionable too since I had to come out of position to investigate and panic at the bloodsucker on my hand, but there it is. I was shooting off a bench with the telestock on a rear bag and it didn't want to settle down very well. Keep in mind that the purpose of this test was to see what the rifle itself could do, minimizing my faults as a shooter. A quality rifle with a pencil, chrome lined, non-floated barrel is capable of "combat" accuracy. I still may free float it just to remove the last bit of mechanical uncertainty, but I want to point out that quality ammo, optics, and a trigger are more important and should come first. Ammo was purchased through Midway last week |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
Yes, ALG tigger. And the thrown shot was definitely my fault on the 77's. I think the bottom three on the 69 were questionable too since I had to come out of position to investigate and panic at the bloodsucker on my hand, but there it is. I was shooting off a bench with the telestock on a rear bag and it didn't want to settle down very well. Keep in mind that the purpose of this test was to see what the rifle itself could do, minimizing my faults as a shooter. A quality rifle with a pencil, chrome lined, non-floated barrel is capable of "combat" accuracy. I still may free float it just to remove the last bit of mechanical uncertainty, but I want to point out that quality ammo, optics, and a trigger are more important and should come first. Ammo was purchased through Midway last week nickforney is right, tho in that called fliers should still be part of any group. To subtract them is to give the group up to the unknown, as we do not know where that subtracted shot would have gone if shot correctly. Anyway, your point about carbines being accurate is good. My pencil barreled PSA is listed #2 in the SHTF Challenge and that was with the 6.5 lb stock trigger. I just put a LaRue in my target rifle and put the ArmaLite 2-stage in my PSA so I need to shoot this again and see if it helps at all. I doubt it will in that it will be very difficult to beat this group. 15 shots from 100 yards, sitting on ground, elbows rested on knees. My Smith has a 5 lb trigger, single stage, stock factory. It has a hint of creep but let's go pretty crisply. MRW: Take that carbine and shoot the Challenge. You should do well with it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html Below are the top 10 in the SHTF Challenge: ************************************************************* C} Optical-Sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18 inches} AKA "With Glass On It" Carbine Division 1] EVR – S&W M&P15 – 17 1/2" - Burris 3-9 fullfield - Magpul FCS – PMC 55 FMJ - Sitting – 3.435" = 3.069 MOA 2] EVR-PSA Blem lower/pencil bbl 1/7 twist upper-16.5" bbl-Burris 1.75/5x scope-No Mods-55 gr Hornady SP handload-Sitting w/ elbows rested on knees- 3.901"-3.726 MOA 3] johnfz6 -Stag/YHM/DPMS frankengun 5.56 - 16" barrel-BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope - Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger-handload w/ Hornady 55gr FMJBT-crossed leg sitting- 4.012" = 3.832MOA 4] johnfz6 - LRB/JSE Surp. 5.56 - 17.75" - Vortex Strikefire red dot - no mods - handload w/55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 4.169 = 3.982 MOA 5] ArisakaArmalite–ArmaLiteSPR MOD 1/M15 5.56–17.75" bbl- Nikko-Sterling 3-10 scope -No Mods–PMC 55 gr FMJBT-Sitting, elbows on knees–4.87" - .224 = 4.646 = 4.44 MOA 6] Weldingrod - RRA 556 carbine - Barrel 17 1/2" - Aimpoint T1 - Light weight profile barrel, Magpul handguards and CTR stock - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 4.8125" = 4.596 MOA 7] BillyDoubleU - Spike ML .223/5.56 - 17.75" - Troy BUIS - Spike's NIB BCG/FCG - Wolf Polyformance 55gr FMJ - Crosslegged - 5.25" = 5.014 MOA 8] Smallwoods – Miscellaneous AR-15 - Lothar Walther 17.13in - Leupold VX-3 1.75-6 - Geisselle DMR trigger - Fiocchi 223 55gn FMJBT - seated, elbows in front of knees – 5.4 Inches = 5.2 MOA 9] krichbaum - frankengun 5.56 - 17.5" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - handload 55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 5.476" = 5.230 MOA 10] Rksonex- Frankengun 5.56 mm NATO- 16.1" BBL - Aimpoint M2- Tula 55gr .223- Standing Isosceles- 6" = 5.73 MOA |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By EVR: MRW: Take that carbine and shoot the Challenge. You should do well with it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html _______________________________ Already on the board for Iron sighted rifle, see bottom of page 2 for entry |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By EVR: MRW: Take that carbine and shoot the Challenge. You should do well with it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744566_OFFICIAL_SHTF_Challenge_Redux__Can_you_shoot_without_props_and_crutches___.html _______________________________ Already on the board for Iron sighted rifle, see bottom of page 2 for entry I know, but that carbine looks like a real winner for that sort of shooting!! I like light carbines for field position shooting. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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I'm not sure how well I'd do with the ACOG. It would put me in the optics class, but it's only a 1.5x, which won't help much in that group. I mainly need the ACOG for its light gathering and focus ability, not so much for the magnification. I may try with a 1-6x next time out. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I'm not sure how well I'd do with the ACOG. It would put me in the optics class, but it's only a 1.5x, which won't help much in that group. I mainly need the ACOG for its light gathering and focus ability, not so much for the magnification. I may try with a 1-6x next time out. MRW: I'd say try it anyway. One of the reasons for the Challenge was originally to make comparisons between the various setups used; sighting equipment, barrels, triggers, etc. For example, as we are discussing the carbine on this thread, maybe many might think that rifles would way outclass carbines in such a challenge when in fact that is not the case. I think it is safe to say that historical military assessments of the need for a carbine never really included a recognition that the carbine is MORE accurate under field conditions until recent years with the M4. In my own experience I simply shoot shorter rifles better overall than I do longer barreled jobs. Simple fact is I can hold the carbine steadier than I can the rifle. Years ago I figured that out and got well acquainted with a hacksaw and started in on my hunting rifles. Except for a couple rifles I need maximum velocity out of, for point blank shooting {out to 300 yards or so} the carbine is superior for me. Here below are the first three entries in each division. Carbines did very well indeed! A} Iron-sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18" INCLUDING BRAKES, SUPPRESSORS, FLASH HIDERS} AKA "Without Glass On It" Carbine Division 1] johnfz6 - Anderson frankengun 5.56 NATO - 16" - A2 iron - None - Ultramax 5.56 55gr FMJ - crossed leg sitting - 5.508 = 5.261 MOA 2] Muad-Colt M4A1 clone-14.5" Colt SOCOM bbl 5.56-Pinned Smith Vortex FH - Carry handle rear-standard FSB - Geissle SSA trigger-ZQI SS109/M855 5.56 62gr-crossed leg sitting-5.880=5.616 MOA 2] EVR – Smith & Wesson M&P15 5.56 – 17.5" - Carry handle Rear, Standard FSB - MAGPUL FCS – Handload - Sitting – 5.901" = 5.636 MOA B} Iron-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18” and over} AKA "Without Glass On It" Rifle Division 1] Sirveaux - DPMS/J&T A2 Clone - 20" HB - A2 iron sights - 62 or 64 gr Speer or Federal loose ammo - Sitting - 4.8395" = 4.622 MOA 2] EVR - Armalite AR10A4 7.62 NATO Caliber- 20" bbl - Irons {A2 Front installed by ADCO} - Speer 150 BTSP Handload - Sitting - 5.924 ES = 5.364 MOA 3] MRW –Homebuilt AR 5.56 – 21.5" Barrel - Carry handle sights -M16A1 1:12 twist barrel With flat top upper – Handloaded 55 gr FMJ ammo - Seated shooting position – 5.9" group = 5.6 MOA C} Optical-Sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18 inches} AKA "With Glass On It" Carbine Division 1] EVR – S&W M&P15 – 17 1/2" - Burris 3-9 fullfield - Magpul FCS – PMC 55 FMJ - Sitting – 3.435" = 3.069 MOA 2] EVR-PSA Blem lower/pencil bbl 1/7 twist upper-16.5" bbl-Burris 1.75/5x scope-No Mods-55 gr Hornady SP handload-Sitting w/ elbows rested on knees- 3.901"-3.726 MOA 3] johnfz6 -Stag/YHM/DPMS frankengun 5.56 - 16" barrel-BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope - Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger-handload w/ Hornady 55gr FMJBT-crossed leg sitting- 4.012" = 3.832MOA D} Optical-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18 inches and over} AKA "With Glass On It" Rifle Division 1] EVR – ArmaLite M15NM 5.56 NATO - 21 1/8" BBL - Redfield 4-12 scope - No mods, tuned trigger - 69 gr sierra BTHP Handload – Sitting – 3.524" = 3.366 MOA 2] L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 27.75" total bbl (incl. YHM suppressor) - Vortex PST 2.5-10x - RRA 2 stage trigger - Fiocchi 77SMK - sitting - 3.78" = 3.61 MOA 3] L_JE - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - 21.5" total bbl (incl. Osprey Sparrow) - Bushnell TRS-25 RDS - stock trigger, Hogue stock - Win SuperX - sitting - 4.526" = 4.32 MOA |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all Much wisdom here. One question on the second paragraph. When you say "quality ammo" are you referring to Federal M193 over Tula, or are you thinking of Black Hills over Federal M193? Basically "quality brass-cased" or "match." I'd like to get enough practice to be able to do that offhand with my 16" KISS M4.... |
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Originally Posted By minion42:
Much wisdom here. One question on the second paragraph. When you say "quality ammo" are you referring to Federal M193 over Tula, or are you thinking of Black Hills over Federal M193? Basically "quality brass-cased" or "match." I'd like to get enough practice to be able to do that offhand with my 16" KISS M4.... Originally Posted By minion42:
Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all Much wisdom here. One question on the second paragraph. When you say "quality ammo" are you referring to Federal M193 over Tula, or are you thinking of Black Hills over Federal M193? Basically "quality brass-cased" or "match." I'd like to get enough practice to be able to do that offhand with my 16" KISS M4.... Look at the entries in the SHTF Challenge I posted above and see generally what ammo is being used. This is real shooting, by the way, not just internet talk. They demonstrate the ability of the carbine to keep up with and even surpass rifles in some cases. I'd recommend you give it a try. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Quality is a relative term. 55 or 62 grain FMJ ammo is not known for accuracy. As a LOW baseline I would suggest 55 gr factory Hornady FMJs if you want to use FMJ. Federal XM193 and the new Wolf Gold are pretty good too. For defensive use I would strongly suggest Federal Fusion, a Black Hills TSX load, or a 69 or 77 Sierra Match King load. (iffy on the 69 as defensive, but it's very accurate) |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Look at the entries in the SHTF Challenge I posted above and see generally what ammo is being used. This is real shooting, by the way, not just internet talk. They demonstrate the ability of the carbine to keep up with and even surpass rifles in some cases. I'd recommend you give it a try. Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By minion42:
Originally Posted By MRW:
I agree with most everything so far, but I don't believe a free-floated barrel is a necessity. It may be one of the last things a "combat carbine" needs. Here's my thread on lightweight barrels and accuracy click and none of mine are free floated. My goal for a combat carbine is to be able to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, meaning the shots must fall within roughly 10-12 inches. This corresponds to 2 inches at 100 yards or just a bit over, and it should not be difficult for a carbine with standard handguards to do that with quality ammunition and practice. for new shooters who do not yet know the capabilities of their rifle or themselves, I would recommend money spent on quality ammunition, quality optics, a quality trigger, lots of practice, and then to push it further, a free floated handguard, in that order. For close range use of under 200 yards, I see no reason to free float at all Much wisdom here. One question on the second paragraph. When you say "quality ammo" are you referring to Federal M193 over Tula, or are you thinking of Black Hills over Federal M193? Basically "quality brass-cased" or "match." I'd like to get enough practice to be able to do that offhand with my 16" KISS M4.... Look at the entries in the SHTF Challenge I posted above and see generally what ammo is being used. This is real shooting, by the way, not just internet talk. They demonstrate the ability of the carbine to keep up with and even surpass rifles in some cases. I'd recommend you give it a try. Definitely going to try it! I have mostly Wolf Gold so I'll start with that as a baseline for training the Indian better. 
ETA: I did the old one but the thread was dead and I was never added or replied to. Wish there was less talk and more shooting on here. |
This diagram shows how your sight picture will pretty much never look in reality. You need to have holds into the wind, so that none of the vertical reticle line is intersecting the target. The 100m and 200m are ok, but there needs to be hold typically from 300 on out.
I saw it mentioned in here that hitting out to 500yds with a standard M4 carbine shooting M193 or M855 on a man-sized target is easy, even without free float, using irons sights or a RDS. Maybe in no-wind conditions, on a static person facing you with no concept of self-preservation. In my DM Courses, shooting 18" plates out to 600yds, with high-end AR15s with very accurate, free-floated, barrels, and Mk.262 or some other higher end 68gr BTHP to 77gr BTHP load, if the wind calls aren't on, you will have misses. Once you get in the sticks, where wind blows over the tops of the forest, then there is hardly any wind consideration, but distances drop down considerably as well. On free-float. Free-float the gun, even if you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 200yds. Reason: heat dissipation. If you want to cheat the wind more, use a higher BC projectile. There is a practical, direct correlation between BC and wind deflection. 5.56 is very difficult to get hits with on static, man-sized targets once you start getting past 300yds, if there is wind even under 10mph. For movers and partial exposures, it's more of a suppressive fire solution, unless you go full precision carbine with the right load, optics, super accurate barrel, and highly-trained shooter. Every little inch in your favor counts with 5.56 once you start pushing the distance out, because it just gets blown around by the wind system that is flowing over the area you're shooting in. |
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
This diagram shows how your sight picture will pretty much never look in reality. You need to have holds into the wind, so that none of the vertical reticle line is intersecting the target. The 100m and 200m are ok, but there needs to be hold typically from 300 on out. http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk148/pezboytate/Firearms/ZEROACOGCHEVRON.png I saw it mentioned in here that hitting out to 500yds with a standard M4 carbine shooting M193 or M855 on a man-sized target is easy, even without free float, using irons sights or a RDS. Maybe in no-wind conditions, on a static person facing you with no concept of self-preservation. In my DM Courses, shooting 18" plates out to 600yds, with high-end AR15s with very accurate, free-floated, barrels, and Mk.262 or some other higher end 68gr BTHP to 77gr BTHP load, if the wind calls aren't on, you will have misses. Once you get in the sticks, where wind blows over the tops of the forest, then there is hardly any wind consideration, but distances drop down considerably as well. On free-float. Free-float the gun, even if you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 200yds. Reason: heat dissipation. If you want to cheat the wind more, use a higher BC projectile. There is a practical, direct correlation between BC and wind deflection. 5.56 is very difficult to get hits with on static, man-sized targets once you start getting past 300yds, if there is wind even under 10mph. For movers and partial exposures, it's more of a suppressive fire solution, unless you go full precision carbine with the right load, optics, super accurate barrel, and highly-trained shooter. Every little inch in your favor counts with 5.56 once you start pushing the distance out, because it just gets blown around by the wind system that is flowing over the area you're shooting in. Good points LRRP. I avoid the arguments because I am not military. I just own a 1000 meter range and therefore have no experience upon which to argue against the "MO MAN All Day Long At Any Range Out To the Horizon" assertions of many carbine shooters...
So I am glad to let you do it for me. 
I do have a question for those who have extensively used both: I really have trouble getting my head around some of the blocky types of reticles common to many scopes these days. At close range, I get it, but even past a mere 100 m the old and boring crosshair seems so superior I really don't get the attraction to the various big blocky reticles. The one you have posted here seems a very good mixing of th two w/ the chevron for close and crosshair for farther out. I like it. Comments? |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
| The blocky which Im guessing you mean like the H58, G2 or tremor type set ups are key for wind holds without dialing. If you are on a bit of rolling western Iowa prairie and you go to dial in a wind correction by the time you are back on the gun the wind has changed. I am pretty fond of the G2 in a bushnell but have had several vortex scopes that work great. On calm days we have shot 5.56 in an AR out to 1k but some of the most enjoyable shooting days have been fighting wind with 77 magtech ammo in a 16 inch gun at 6-- to 7-- meters. |
Your brain has two modes: "Juggalo" and "Learning disabilities". -DR H
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Originally Posted By nickforney:
The blocky which Im guessing you mean like the H58, G2 or tremor type set ups are key for wind holds without dialing. If you are on a bit of rolling western Iowa prairie and you go to dial in a wind correction by the time you are back on the gun the wind has changed. I am pretty fond of the G2 in a bushnell but have had several vortex scopes that work great. On calm days we have shot 5.56 in an AR out to 1k but some of the most enjoyable shooting days have been fighting wind with 77 magtech ammo in a 16 inch gun at 6-- to 7-- meters. I get that it can be done, but I see zero advantage to bulky reticles on rifles meant for distance shooting. One only need go back to the ancient German 1A picket post, a favorite of foresters in thick timber. But it is a loser at range, as was and has been proven for many decades. Many of the modern reticles that many on the forums seem to glom on to are similar in their disadvantage to the old Kraut picket. Ditto the round dot jobs. Setting up a rifle with a reticle that is a disadvantage at distance and then attempting to modify the rifle to perform well at range is counterproductive. The most mechanically accurate rifle made can be reduced to a mediocre shootin iron with the addition of a bad reticle. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
| how about the Atibal Velocity? click |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
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I don't know anything about the scope but the reticle looks pretty good. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
|
Originally Posted By Orrin:
I think OP took his ball and went home.  As with most discussions in here, the conversation has devolved from one that was useful... to a conversation that was no longer useful The beginning was good. It was thoughtful and purposeful and considerate and meaningful now it's scattered, un-focused, biased, and turned all brown and lumpy |
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
As with most discussions in here, the conversation has devolved from one that was useful... to a conversation that was no longer useful The beginning was good. It was thoughtful and purposeful and considerate and meaningful now it's scattered, un-focused, biased, and turned all brown and lumpy Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Orrin:
I think OP took his ball and went home. As with most discussions in here, the conversation has devolved from one that was useful... to a conversation that was no longer useful The beginning was good. It was thoughtful and purposeful and considerate and meaningful now it's scattered, un-focused, biased, and turned all brown and lumpy Yes, but no posts for months, why now brown cow ? |
I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
site staff changed his name and made America great again Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
So, is America NickForney or vice versa or both site staff changed his name and made America great again So Forney's mad at America ?
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I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
All Your Post Are Belong To Us
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