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Posted: 8/6/2014 2:37:06 PM EDT
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Please teach me the cause(s) of slop between an upper and lower. There are holes in the lower and in the upper and pins to hold it all in place. So is it inconsistencies in hole size? Poor alignment of holes? Size of the take down and pivot pins? All of the above???? Other?
Thank you for your time. Beech |
| All of that, and none. There are accepted tolerances in the uppers and lowers. Those tolerances often make for a loose-feeling weapon, especially if both are at the opposite ends of the tolerance spectrum (small upper, large lower opening, or same for pin locations). While it doesn't feel great, there's nothing non-functional. It will work just fine. If you don't like it though look into the accuwedge. Dirt cheap and tighten the fit nicely. Many aftermarket lowers now come with tensioning screws to make the fit feel better, just have to find the ones that do. All of mine have them as I like a nice fit myself. Your one other option is to have a set fitted before buying, or find a really nice company that will allow you to test-fit before you buy. |
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Quoted:
All of that, and none. There are accepted tolerances in the uppers and lowers. Those tolerances often make for a loose-feeling weapon, especially if both are at the opposite ends of the tolerance spectrum (small upper, large lower opening, or same for pin locations). While it doesn't feel great, there's nothing non-functional. It will work just fine. If you don't like it though look into the accuwedge. Dirt cheap and tighten the fit nicely. Many aftermarket lowers now come with tensioning screws to make the fit feel better, just have to find the ones that do. All of mine have them as I like a nice fit myself. Your one other option is to have a set fitted before buying, or find a really nice company that will allow you to test-fit before you buy. This would have been my reply. A little slop is ok. A lot of slop is just plain annoying. I prefer the lowers with tension screws, but when you swap different uppers on that lower, the screws become a little bit of a pain in the ass. Especially if you have to take off your grip. And if you dont use loctite, then the screws tend to come loose pretty fast. But if you have a designated upper for that specific lower, then just loctite that screw in place, and you are set. |
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Please teach me the cause(s) of slop between an upper and lower. There are holes in the lower and in the upper and pins to hold it all in place. So is it inconsistencies in hole size? Poor alignment of holes? Size of the take down and pivot pins? All of the above???? Other? Thank you for your time. Beech Why is the slop a problem for you? I doesn't really affect anything. You can buy the acu wedge deal down or just stuff a foam ear plug in there. If you are talking about a precision rig it might help but I would venture the difference would be negligible for most shooters. For precision guns or when I am trying to get accuracy or of a stock gun I roll the pistol grip getting a good pinch between the pivot pins. |
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Why is the slop a problem for you? I doesn't really affect anything. You can buy the acu wedge deal down or just stuff a foam ear plug in there. If you are talking about a precision rig it might help but I would venture the difference would be negligible for most shooters. For precision guns or when I am trying to get accuracy or of a stock gun I roll the pistol grip getting a good pinch between the pivot pins. Quoted:
Quoted:
Please teach me the cause(s) of slop between an upper and lower. There are holes in the lower and in the upper and pins to hold it all in place. So is it inconsistencies in hole size? Poor alignment of holes? Size of the take down and pivot pins? All of the above???? Other? Thank you for your time. Beech Why is the slop a problem for you? I doesn't really affect anything. You can buy the acu wedge deal down or just stuff a foam ear plug in there. If you are talking about a precision rig it might help but I would venture the difference would be negligible for most shooters. For precision guns or when I am trying to get accuracy or of a stock gun I roll the pistol grip getting a good pinch between the pivot pins. It's not a problem. My S&W M&P15 is pretty tight, an Accu-wedge won't even allow the upper to close without a lot of effort  I was mostly curious. Hear the slop issue mentioned fairly often so just wanted some education on the cause.
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| I have a Colt upper mated to a Colt lower that has the most slop of the ones I have. It's not really bad at all, but I notice it because I have a few that still require the delrin DPMS punch to open, although they are certainly wearing in. I use an Oring on the upper takedown lug to tighten it up. Honestly when the oring is new it's almost too much. This gun still shoots nice groups with a 16" $144 Green Mountain barrel. |
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Coming from an AK background, I'm a fan of "slop". IMHO, "tight" has no place in a combat weapon. Tight is for precision rifles, not a defensive one. I'll take loose uppers any day before a "requires tool to remove" upper. Although I agree with you the reasoning isn't exactly right. Aside from removing with a punch or cleaning rod tighter is some what better to an extent. If the upper and lower have so much slop that small amounts of dust can get into the opening it isn't as good as one that has slightly less slop. I had an m4 in afghanistan that you could rock it hard to one side and be able to open up a gap enough to pour moon dust into. As I mentioned you can torque on the lower creating the same amount of tension between the upper and lower each shot. If you have so much that you feel a noticeable rattle then you might look into putting a foam ear plug into the gap under the rear take down pin. This might help slightly but it is good to remember that relationship between pressure applied from the front and rear hands in relation to how the gun is moving. Tight for precision verses loose for combat has more application to the bolt and headspace. |
| I highly doubt there would be an appreciable difference in dust accumulation between a rifle with less slop vs one with a little more slop. There's plenty of other areas where dust can get it that are far larger than the paper thin areas between the upper and lower. |
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Although I agree with you the reasoning isn't exactly right. Aside from removing with a punch or cleaning rod tighter is some what better to an extent. If the upper and lower have so much slop that small amounts of dust can get into the opening it isn't as good as one that has slightly less slop. I had an m4 in afghanistan that you could rock it hard to one side and be able to open up a gap enough to pour moon dust into. As I mentioned you can torque on the lower creating the same amount of tension between the upper and lower each shot. If you have so much that you feel a noticeable rattle then you might look into putting a foam ear plug into the gap under the rear take down pin. This might help slightly but it is good to remember that relationship between pressure applied from the front and rear hands in relation to how the gun is moving. Tight for precision verses loose for combat has more application to the bolt and headspace. Quoted:
Quoted:
Coming from an AK background, I'm a fan of "slop". IMHO, "tight" has no place in a combat weapon. Tight is for precision rifles, not a defensive one. I'll take loose uppers any day before a "requires tool to remove" upper. Although I agree with you the reasoning isn't exactly right. Aside from removing with a punch or cleaning rod tighter is some what better to an extent. If the upper and lower have so much slop that small amounts of dust can get into the opening it isn't as good as one that has slightly less slop. I had an m4 in afghanistan that you could rock it hard to one side and be able to open up a gap enough to pour moon dust into. As I mentioned you can torque on the lower creating the same amount of tension between the upper and lower each shot. If you have so much that you feel a noticeable rattle then you might look into putting a foam ear plug into the gap under the rear take down pin. This might help slightly but it is good to remember that relationship between pressure applied from the front and rear hands in relation to how the gun is moving. Tight for precision verses loose for combat has more application to the bolt and headspace. Very true. I guess it's just a psychological factor with me. I'm just more confident with a "worn in" (and/or loose) rifle. I know... I'm a weirdo :-) |
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+1 Best $3.00 I've ever spent. edit: $4.16. And I can still remove my upper without any type of tools. I do have to put my thumb outside the trigger guard and pointer on top the upper and squeeze to get the pin started but by no means do I need a punch and a hammer. |
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I used a accuwedge on one of my looser AR's at first, then after awhile and the new wore off of it, I said fuck it and took it out and now I don't even notice.
I think the loose fit just bothered me because it was new, now that it isn't new anymore, I don't care. |
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Slop between uppers and lowers will not meaningfully impact accuracy except for the absolute top 1% of high power competition shooters.
You don't need to concern yourself with this matter in relation to accuracy or performance. If you want a tight upper and lower fit for aesthetic and handling reasons, that's a wholly different reason. |
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It doesn't hurt but it drives me nuts. I love my MEGA receivers because are they are tight but you can still operate the takedowns with a finger My new Daniel Defense SBR has a tiny amount of wiggle on the receivers. It bothers me more than I like to admit. :P Try the Battle Arms Development enhanced takedown pins. I've bought a set for every one of my rifles, they're so good and MUCH easier to use than stock. |
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It's not a problem. My S&W M&P15 is pretty tight, an Accu-wedge won't even allow the upper to close without a lot of effort I was mostly curious. Hear the slop issue mentioned fairly often so just wanted some education on the cause.
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Please teach me the cause(s) of slop between an upper and lower. There are holes in the lower and in the upper and pins to hold it all in place. So is it inconsistencies in hole size? Poor alignment of holes? Size of the take down and pivot pins? All of the above???? Other? Thank you for your time. Beech Why is the slop a problem for you? I doesn't really affect anything. You can buy the acu wedge deal down or just stuff a foam ear plug in there. If you are talking about a precision rig it might help but I would venture the difference would be negligible for most shooters. For precision guns or when I am trying to get accuracy or of a stock gun I roll the pistol grip getting a good pinch between the pivot pins. It's not a problem. My S&W M&P15 is pretty tight, an Accu-wedge won't even allow the upper to close without a lot of effort I was mostly curious. Hear the slop issue mentioned fairly often so just wanted some education on the cause.
Right. I put in an accuwedge plus a rubber O-ring on the front pin. I I just need to give it a little squeeze to put the rear pin thru but I really like the fit. It wasn't "sloppy" to start but I thought for the few bucks I would try it out and I liked the fit. |
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I have never needed to use one of those AccuWedge units, but I have seen some guy that had one all chewed up and get into his buffer tube. Is this common? Just curious as I would think once that falls apart, it can get into everywhere in the upper receiver. That guy must not have trimmed it like he was supposed to. Where it sits nothing should be grinding on it if trimmed properly. |
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sorry if this is a dumb question, but has anyone used an accuwedge for an extened period of time, taken it out, and noticed any more play than usual?
im building my first rifle and ive got an aero lower with an anderson upper. i can already feel the slop and it drives me nuts.. just wondering if anyone has ever noticed any additional wear with the accuwedge over time. although i think im going to try the o ring trick first, as its cheaper and i can get an o ring from my local hardware store. |
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All of that, and none. There are accepted tolerances in the uppers and lowers. Those tolerances often make for a loose-feeling weapon, especially if both are at the opposite ends of the tolerance spectrum (small upper, large lower opening, or same for pin locations). While it doesn't feel great, there's nothing non-functional. It will work just fine. If you don't like it though look into the accuwedge. Dirt cheap and tighten the fit nicely. Many aftermarket lowers now come with tensioning screws to make the fit feel better, just have to find the ones that do. All of mine have them as I like a nice fit myself. Your one other option is to have a set fitted before buying, or find a really nice company that will allow you to test-fit before you buy. This x 100. Also, it will not effect the accuracy like it would in a bolt gun with an improperly fitted action in a stock. Its just that when the 2 halves fit together tight in the AR there is a "presumption" of quality and accuracy- things that rattle around just naturally seem junky or worn out. |
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