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going for a 1993 Somalia car15 build and need your help (Page 89 of 90)
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Originally Posted By Morg308: I've always wondered if Schilling's rifle was an early 723 (which makes the most sense) or a 653. I'm betting 723, as those guys got the best stuff, and were almost certainly using 1:7 twist barrels. We know Colt's early 723s and 733s used A2 marked A1 lowers, but some export models were just marked A2 Carbine. If this was a COTS purchase, I'm wondering if it was marked that way. Nit picky stuff, and who cares, right? I'm just curious. I've wondered that myself. On the one hand, the Air Force was all about rebuilding their mix master carbines and the photo of him sitting on the Little Bird reaching his hand out does show an A1 pistol grip. But, in that photo his carbine also has a Delta ring, not the flat slip ring found on 653s. And, like you mention, I'd assume 24th STS got the most up to date stuff to be compatible with the SMUs they would be supporting. The commercial 723s, etc. were marked: prancing Colt logo over "COLT" over "M16 A2" over "CAL. 5.56 MM." over serial number. Though, there were some later 733s and 933s with "Commando" markings as well. |
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Originally Posted By Morg308: I've always wondered if Schilling's rifle was an early 723 (which makes the most sense) or a 653. I'm betting 723, as those guys got the best stuff, and were almost certainly using 1:7 twist barrels. We know Colt's early 723s and 733s used A2 marked A1 lowers, but some export models were just marked A2 Carbine. If this was a COTS purchase, I'm wondering if it was marked that way. Nit picky stuff, and who cares, right? I'm just curious. The only way to know for sure would be the original barrel twist as you said. 723 would have COTS M16(space)A2 rollmark. Not property marked and no Carbine I don't think. edit: sorry to be repetitive, I replied before I read the above post. |
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I'm having a hard time getting a fix on the pattern of guns in this thread. I'm basically familiar with the Gordon carbine. Could you guys give me a run down of the other types of Somalia guns that you're going for here? Is there a good rule of thumb for what barrel length goes with A1 vs A2 uppers? Are all of these on A2 lowers? Are they all marked M16A2, if so? Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: I'm having a hard time getting a fix on the pattern of guns in this thread. I'm basically familiar with the Gordon carbine. Could you guys give me a run down of the other types of Somalia guns that you're going for here? Is there a good rule of thumb for what barrel length goes with A1 vs A2 uppers? Are all of these on A2 lowers? Are they all marked M16A2, if so? Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: A1.5 or A2 upper, skinny 6-hole carbine handguards, 14.5-inch M4-profile barrel (carbine gas), A2 FH. Originally Posted By RTUtah: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: I'm having a hard time getting a fix on the pattern of guns in this thread. I'm basically familiar with the Gordon carbine. Could you guys give me a run down of the other types of Somalia guns that you're going for here? Is there a good rule of thumb for what barrel length goes with A1 vs A2 uppers? Are all of these on A2 lowers? Are they all marked M16A2, if so? Thanks. What is an A1.5 upper? |
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: A1 upper with a case deflector, known as the "Brunton Bump." https://i.imgur.com/Rspsx3e.jpeg Originally Posted By RTUtah: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: What is an A1.5 upper? https://i.imgur.com/Rspsx3e.jpeg Ahhhh, gotcha! Alright, thanks. I think I understand now. One final (haha doubt it's the final one) question, who makes that vertically split Aimpoint ring you see on a lot of '90s carbines? |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Ahhhh, gotcha! Alright, thanks. I think I understand now. One final (haha doubt it's the final one) question, who makes that vertically split Aimpoint ring you see on a lot of '90s carbines? |
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: My setup utilizes a Smith Enterprises carry-handle mount, and 30mm Leupold Rifleman vertical split rings. I found a silver set on eBay and had them Cerakoted black. ARMS makes (or made) a single 30mm ring with an integrated carry-handle mount but I'm not sure if they still make it. Originally Posted By RTUtah: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Ahhhh, gotcha! Alright, thanks. I think I understand now. One final (haha doubt it's the final one) question, who makes that vertically split Aimpoint ring you see on a lot of '90s carbines? Thanks! Love your book, by the way. I'm almost done with Gentle Propositions. |
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Originally Posted By towerofpower94: I picked this two pack from Amazon. Used one for the Gordy build and the other in the other older SF light I bought that wasn’t right for the Gordy build  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/302703/IMG_6981_png-3535623.JPG Tower of power Thanks so much !! Ordered those bulbs and it’s the first time in 20 years it’s working!! Attached File |
"It just gets that much more exciting when it has a carry handle on it. Or tiger stripes. If you have both, then you have the John Wayne in the Green Berets size of a big win."
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Originally Posted By tiger222: Tower of power Thanks so much !! Ordered those bulbs and it’s the first time in 20 years it’s working!! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61015/IMG_9797_jpeg-3690501.JPG Originally Posted By tiger222: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: I picked this two pack from Amazon. Used one for the Gordy build and the other in the other older SF light I bought that wasn’t right for the Gordy build https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/302703/IMG_6981_png-3535623.JPG Tower of power Thanks so much !! Ordered those bulbs and it’s the first time in 20 years it’s working!! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61015/IMG_9797_jpeg-3690501.JPG Glad they got the light working again. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Would these men's carbines have had full auto, or 3 round burst selectors? A 3 round burst FRT mechanism just appeared on the market, and I think I'd like to incorporate it into my build if appropriate. If not, I'll just roll with the Arizona Regulator. I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Would these men's carbines have had full auto, or 3 round burst selectors? A 3 round burst FRT mechanism just appeared on the market, and I think I'd like to incorporate it into my build if appropriate. If not, I'll just roll with the Arizona Regulator. I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Would these men's carbines have had full auto, or 3 round burst selectors? A 3 round burst FRT mechanism just appeared on the market, and I think I'd like to incorporate it into my build if appropriate. If not, I'll just roll with the Arizona Regulator. I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? Not for Delta. I think all of their rifles were M16A1 Carbines. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Not for Delta. I think all of their rifles were M16A1 Carbines. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Would these men's carbines have had full auto, or 3 round burst selectors? A 3 round burst FRT mechanism just appeared on the market, and I think I'd like to incorporate it into my build if appropriate. If not, I'll just roll with the Arizona Regulator. I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? Not for Delta. I think all of their rifles were M16A1 Carbines. Okay. That changes my calculus a bit. Thanks for that. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Okay. That changes my calculus a bit. Thanks for that. Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Would these men's carbines have had full auto, or 3 round burst selectors? A 3 round burst FRT mechanism just appeared on the market, and I think I'd like to incorporate it into my build if appropriate. If not, I'll just roll with the Arizona Regulator. I believe they're built on M16 lowers and full-auto. The 3-round burst function was on the flat-top stuff like the M4A1 and M16A4 until the later revisions about a decade ago. Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? Not for Delta. I think all of their rifles were M16A1 Carbines. Okay. That changes my calculus a bit. Thanks for that. No problemo! 
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: So if a Gordon carbine has an A1 lower, and an A1 upper, forgive me but what's this thread doing in the A2 subforum? Is it because of the movie version of the gun? |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: So if a Gordon carbine has an A1 lower, and an A1 upper, forgive me but what's this thread doing in the A2 subforum? Is it because of the movie version of the gun? Unless I'm mistake, the Gordon carbine had a 1:7 twist barrel which places it squarely in the family of A2 variants. Early Colt 723s and 733s (also considered A2s) had A1 uppers and lowers. Just part of the screwy way Colt used remaining A1 components in their early A2 guns.  IIRC, the 1:7 twist rate, A2 pistol grip, Plastic N1 stock, A2 flashhider, square front sight post, delta ring and possibly the tick selector are the main components that differentiated the early A2s from A1 carbines like the 653. Everything else could be a combo or A1 and A2 parts. |
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Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? They were not Government Property marked guns so they did not conform to a US Military Standard. There was a difference between what the US Military called an A2 and what Colt called an A2, and the Delta guns used in Somalia were What Colt Called an A2 with a COTS M16 A2 rollmark and full auto fire control group. The first Colt A2s had 1/7 twist barrels and that is the biggest differentiator between Colt A2s and Colt A1s. |
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Originally Posted By CapnMike: The Delta rifles were Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) guns. They were not Government Property marked guns so they did not conform to a US Military Standard. There was a difference between what the US Military called an A2 and what Colt called an A2, and the Delta guns used in Somalia were What Colt Called an A2 with a COTS M16 A2 rollmark and full auto fire control group. The first Colt A2s had 1/7 twist barrels and that is the biggest differentiator between Colt A2s and Colt A1s. Originally Posted By CapnMike: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Ah, I see. So an M16A2 marked lower, with a Burst marking, would not be appropriate? They were not Government Property marked guns so they did not conform to a US Military Standard. There was a difference between what the US Military called an A2 and what Colt called an A2, and the Delta guns used in Somalia were What Colt Called an A2 with a COTS M16 A2 rollmark and full auto fire control group. The first Colt A2s had 1/7 twist barrels and that is the biggest differentiator between Colt A2s and Colt A1s. Are there any known images of the receiver markings on those guns? |
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Originally Posted By CapnMike: https://i.postimg.cc/K84n44t2/B9AC9EA0-DD52-456B-A489-5DBCC4D882CC.jpg Yes, they looked like this. Originally Posted By CapnMike: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Are there any known images of the receiver markings on those guns? Yes, they looked like this. Ah, I see now. I wasn't understanding the difference between the model number of M16A2, and being marked US Property (or some version of that). Thank you! |
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There's a lot wrong, but it feels right... Attached File Attached File |
Originally Posted By System Message:
Why can't you guys participate in a simple discussion about some guy's mom making a porno without violating the COC? This is why we can't have nice things.
Why can't you guys participate in a simple discussion about some guy's mom making a porno without violating the COC? This is why we can't have nice things.
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Originally Posted By WhiteDingo: There's a lot wrong, but it feels right... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65278/1000012354_jpg-3723001.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65278/1000012355_jpg-3723002.JPG  |
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| Regarding the carbine used by Mr. Schilling, in my opinion it is possible that it could be a 653 or a 723. There was a mis-mash of weapons in use by various units. I worked with an STS earlier in 1993 and their weapons were a mishmash of shorter barrels 10.5", 11.5", 14.5" and 16" on various lower receivers also it would not surprise me if it were either. The barrel may have been changed out at some point and the armorer may have added a delta ring when it was changed. I saw some M16A1's in the late 80's and early 90's with delta rings, A2 handguards and round forward assists in my unit arms room. |
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 AE Museum: Original M4-Delta Parts |
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
 Colt 727 “Gordy” CAR-15 Build | Black Hawk Down Inspired Rifle Made a short YouTube video on my Clone-ish build. 
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Originally Posted By Macpw: It's an interesting picture, the only one I know of. The guy on the right has an A1 upper with an M4 barrel. https://i.postimg.cc/CMb6nxkF/Bez-nazwy.jpg Just a 723 with M4 barrel. Nothing rare. Several Delta guns had that. |
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
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 Finally got it to the range - A2 upper with M4 cuts, Colt 6921 barrel, random 6 hole handguards I’m probably going to swap out - the lower is a temporary stand in until I can build a dedicated one…it won’t be perfect still, but it’ll have a 2 position receiver extension and a B5 retro stock like that one has, and a normal carbine endplate. And of course an Allen Engineering M4-D with 3 piece collar. The optic situation needs to be redone - it’s a random Weaver-style carry handle mount I had in a junk box, and an Aimpoint Pro (Not that dedicated to the clone wars to get a vintage Aimpoint lol), in a Vortex low 30mm ring (.87? I think?). The weaver mount is a little odd in that in the middle-ish position (where it is in the picture), it sits the Aimpoint so low that not only does the front scope cover get crushed on the bottom, but the rear bottom makes contact too. If I move it to a more rearward slot and take the front cover off, it no longer makes contact on either side. I spent about 60 rounds chasing a zero to figure that out, only after I maxxed out elevation and still couldn’t get it on paper  Once I took the front cover off and moved it to a rearwards slot, it finally zeroed…but still too much jank for me so I ordered a normal pic carry handle mount, hopefully here tomorrow. I’ll live with the “non-clone” true pic rail…hopefully the low ring isn’t too low, but in case it is I ordered the next highest ring as well, which should clear the front scope cover either way.I’d be lying if I didn’t say this was my new favorite rifle With it’s H2 buffer brass poops out at 3-3:30 (M193 is more 3, ADI SS109 is more 3:30). It doesn’t feel violent or like it’s really beating itself up at all, it’s great; perfectly gassed. Quiet too, and sounded just as well as everyone says AE cans sound. It’s not overly long. I did get some gas to the face but not bad, with a BCM Gunfighter charging handle (I know, not clone correct…oh well). It’s also surprisingly light, then again it doesn’t have an extra 5lb of rails, lights, lasers, or back up sights.I almost want to build a 2nd with a flat top now Edit - as soon as I get the rail in and get it all zeroed at the range, it’s getting Kryloned 
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"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he pulled the pin on another grenade...
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Originally Posted By Evil_Ed: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/22779/IMG_0962-gordon-3773547.jpg Finally got it to the range - A2 upper with M4 cuts, Colt 6921 barrel, random 6 hole handguards I’m probably going to swap out - the lower is a temporary stand in until I can build a dedicated one…it won’t be perfect still, but it’ll have a 2 position receiver extension and a B5 retro stock like that one has, and a normal carbine endplate. And of course an Allen Engineering M4-D with 3 piece collar. The optic situation needs to be redone - it’s a random Weaver-style carry handle mount I had in a junk box, and an Aimpoint Pro (Not that dedicated to the clone wars to get a vintage Aimpoint lol), in a Vortex low 30mm ring (.87? I think?). The weaver mount is a little odd in that in the middle-ish position (where it is in the picture), it sits the Aimpoint so low that not only does the front scope cover get crushed on the bottom, but the rear bottom makes contact too. If I move it to a more rearward slot and take the front cover off, it no longer makes contact on either side. I spent about 60 rounds chasing a zero to figure that out, only after I maxxed out elevation and still couldn’t get it on paper Once I took the front cover off and moved it to a rearwards slot, it finally zeroed…but still too much jank for me so I ordered a normal pic carry handle mount, hopefully here tomorrow. I’ll live with the “non-clone” true pic rail…hopefully the low ring isn’t too low, but in case it is I ordered the next highest ring as well, which should clear the front scope cover either way.I’d be lying if I didn’t say this was my new favorite rifle With it’s H2 buffer brass poops out at 3-3:30 (M193 is more 3, ADI SS109 is more 3:30). It doesn’t feel violent or like it’s really beating itself up at all, it’s great; perfectly gassed. Quiet too, and sounded just as well as everyone says AE cans sound. It’s not overly long. I did get some gas to the face but not bad, with a BCM Gunfighter charging handle (I know, not clone correct…oh well). It’s also surprisingly light, then again it doesn’t have an extra 5lb of rails, lights, lasers, or back up sights.I almost want to build a 2nd with a flat top now Edit - as soon as I get the rail in and get it all zeroed at the range, it’s getting Kryloned That’s beautiful. A flat top upper would be a cool addition. |
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Originally Posted By Macpw: It's an interesting picture, the only one I know of. The guy on the right has an A1 upper with an M4 barrel. https://i.postimg.cc/CMb6nxkF/Bez-nazwy.jpg The guy on the left has a c7 upper with skinny early style 723 barrel. |
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Originally Posted By Macpw: OK, then please show me more pictures of the 723 A1 Upper (not the C7) and the M4 barrel. I only know this one. Originally Posted By Macpw: Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote: Just a 723 with M4 barrel. Nothing rare. Several Delta guns had that. OK, then please show me more pictures of the 723 A1 Upper (not the C7) and the M4 barrel. I only know this one. Colt was well known to assemble commercial guns with whatever they had on the shelves. The Delta 723s were COTS models and would have been assembled as such. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: Colt was well known to assemble commercial guns with whatever they had on the shelves. The Delta 723s were COTS models and would have been assembled as such. I know that, but he claims that this particular setup is not rare. When you look through all the pictures and there are many of them , you don't find this specific configuration. |
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Originally Posted By Macpw: I know that, but he claims that this particular setup is not rare. When you look through all the pictures and there are many of them , you don't find this specific configuration. 5 minutes of searching if that and I found another. Right side. Attached File |
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
going for a 1993 Somalia car15 build and need your help (Page 89 of 90)
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