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Braceman raided by ATF. (Page 3 of 10)
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Originally Posted By Jodan1776: What was your old username? Originally Posted By Jodan1776: Originally Posted By NEW-N-IMPROVED: Then he's lying on his website cause it says he's a type 01 FFL Holder. https://retroarmsworks.com/f-a-q What was your old username? old-n-unimproved |
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Originally Posted By AirborneCIB: Ongoing investigations. But it does appear DHS is not ONLY targeting people who help cloners. Originally Posted By AirborneCIB: Originally Posted By Into_the_Void: Details? Ongoing investigations. But it does appear DHS is not ONLY targeting people who help cloners. I assume you're talking about gov owned parts? |
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Originally Posted By DitchDr: I realize it’s a little early for this but when we have all of the info maybe someone could start a go fund me to help with the legal expenses he will undoubtedly have. I’d definitely be in for a donation. I’ve never used his services but I know how much he’s contributed to this forum. Someone should start a give-send-go. I'll contribute. https://www.givesendgo.com |
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https://www.ar15.com/forums/equipment-exchange/HK-416-reweld-80-receivers-for-sale/158-2499882/ DHS? Did HK get bothered? |
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Originally Posted By kanjen95: Im in! Id also be up for some class action along with it. I cant be the only one in retro limbo now, I had 5 projects being done. Getting a 656 upper elsewhere is going to be problematic, as will be finding another xm177e2 magwell. There's a 656 upper on Gunbroker for a cool $5k, before tax and shipping. But, it's the real thing as best as I can tell from the pictures! Act fast before inventory runs out! lol |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: So to recap, (I know nothing beyond this thread) A good dude who doesn't have an FFL and isn't making guns, just got raided by the ATF. Complete with guns-drawn flash-bang level entry harassing and traumatizing his family, and they went so far as to dig up his back yard. Seriously - that shit needs to stop. We do that when raiding an ISIS house with hostages. But this as standard practice, has got to stop. Anyway, from statements so far, the guys business practices and known-behavior is inconsistent with him being one to overtly be violating the law. Though as they say, you never really know. But it's causing question and some speculation (Because right now, that's all we can do). Best speculation so far is at one time he was marking receivers or 80%'s or whatever, where to drill the 3rd hole. There is case-law of people going to jail for making sheet-metal with such markings, so maybe(?). . It wasn’t a mark of where to drill a hole, it was to resemble a sear pin from what I gather. I think I read somewhere it wasn’t even in the right location if somebody was stupid enough to try that. My speculation is this wasn’t about that anyways, there’s got to be something else if they dug up his yard. They were looking for something. |
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Originally Posted By Trucker69: It wasn’t a mark of where to drill a hole, it was to resemble a sear pin from what I gather. I think I read somewhere it wasn’t even in the right location if somebody was stupid enough to try that. My speculation is this wasn’t about that anyways, there’s got to be something else if they dug up his yard. They were looking for something. Originally Posted By Trucker69: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: So to recap, (I know nothing beyond this thread) A good dude who doesn't have an FFL and isn't making guns, just got raided by the ATF. Complete with guns-drawn flash-bang level entry harassing and traumatizing his family, and they went so far as to dig up his back yard. Seriously - that shit needs to stop. We do that when raiding an ISIS house with hostages. But this as standard practice, has got to stop. Anyway, from statements so far, the guys business practices and known-behavior is inconsistent with him being one to overtly be violating the law. Though as they say, you never really know. But it's causing question and some speculation (Because right now, that's all we can do). Best speculation so far is at one time he was marking receivers or 80%'s or whatever, where to drill the 3rd hole. There is case-law of people going to jail for making sheet-metal with such markings, so maybe(?). . It wasn’t a mark of where to drill a hole, it was to resemble a sear pin from what I gather. I think I read somewhere it wasn’t even in the right location if somebody was stupid enough to try that. My speculation is this wasn’t about that anyways, there’s got to be something else if they dug up his yard. They were looking for something. Yea, the digging up the back yard is odd. They aren't going to go the effort of just doing that on a whim. So what were they told to look for? I guess we'll see. Right now, dude has a lot of benefit of the doubt from me as being railroaded. We'll see. |
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Originally Posted By dusty3030: My WAG it’s going to be the weld jobs and once a machine gun always a machine gun policy. Don’t agree but it’s happened before with de milled M14 chunks. Even though they weren’t re welded as fa M14’s fatf said they were still machine guns since they were originally machine guns. This. But of course it’s all conjecture. But I’ve no reason to ever give the benefit of the doubt to the AFT. |
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Originally Posted By dusty3030: My WAG it’s going to be the weld jobs and once a machine gun always a machine gun policy. Don’t agree but it’s happened before with de milled M14 chunks. Even though they weren’t re welded as fa M14’s fatf said they were still machine guns since they were originally machine guns. This could easily be the fulcrum point they based the raid leverage on. It’s a ridiculous interpretation but easy to prove if the classification sticks. If they dug up his backyard it could mean they didn’t find any imputed contraband in the house or a lying CI made up a wild story. Taking the mill could just be punishment or looking for incriminating tool path programs. The whole thing sounds like safe, low hanging fruit to pad the win / loss record. |
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I really hate to add to the conjecture, but the guy in WV (or was it VA) got hemmed up for producing machine guns. I believe his name was John Kelley and he was taking demilled M14 receivers and making them functional again. Supposedly, his could not be converted to full auto capability along the lines of an M1A receiver. I can't recall if he was using two sections of demilled receiver or how his process went. I hate that a good guy might possibly get railroaded by an agency that arbitrarily interprets it's own rules. Even when you feel you're playing by the rules, it's hard when the rules are constantly and consistently re-interpreted. |
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Originally Posted By TAG_Match: . Originally Posted By TAG_Match: Originally Posted By dusty3030: My WAG it’s going to be the weld jobs and once a machine gun always a machine gun policy. Don’t agree but it’s happened before with de milled M14 chunks. Even though they weren’t re welded as fa M14’s fatf said they were still machine guns since they were originally machine guns. What about all the M-14's that were used in High power matches that had all the M-14 parts and just had the selector welded into place in the semi-auto position? There were quite a few that were turned into national match rifles and they started life as full auto military M-14's that had the selector welded. Are those rifles now in violation of the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun", or did they get some kind of a waiver? |
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Originally Posted By REAPER2502: I really hate to add to the conjecture, but the guy in WV (or was it VA) got hemmed up for producing machine guns. I believe his name was John Kelley and he was taking demilled M14 receivers and making them functional again. Supposedly, his could not be converted to full auto capability along the lines of an M1A receiver. I can't recall if he was using two sections of demilled receiver or how his process went. I hate that a good guy might possibly get railroaded by an agency that arbitrarily interprets it's own rules. Even when you feel you're playing by the rules, it's hard when the rules are constantly and consistently re-interpreted. Not my game - but I was of the understanding a cut reciever is no longer a firearm. Ending its onec-a-machine-gun-always-machine-gun rule (which is just a made up ATF rule btw). And a reweld therefore a brand new constructed firearm. This has been common practice and understanding, and I once saw a reweld semi-auto STG44, this way (which was so bad-ass, though the dude didn't let me shoot it. I saved his brass though - ya never know!) |
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Originally Posted By Genin: What about all the M-14's that were used in High power matches that had all the M-14 parts and just had the selector welded into place in the semi-auto position? There were quite a few that were turned into national match rifles and they started life as full auto military M-14's that had the selector welded. Are those rifles now in violation of the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun", or did they get some kind of a waiver? Originally Posted By Genin: Originally Posted By TAG_Match: Originally Posted By dusty3030: My WAG it’s going to be the weld jobs and once a machine gun always a machine gun policy. Don’t agree but it’s happened before with de milled M14 chunks. Even though they weren’t re welded as fa M14’s fatf said they were still machine guns since they were originally machine guns. What about all the M-14's that were used in High power matches that had all the M-14 parts and just had the selector welded into place in the semi-auto position? There were quite a few that were turned into national match rifles and they started life as full auto military M-14's that had the selector welded. Are those rifles now in violation of the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun", or did they get some kind of a waiver? Military units and Gov agencies could keep them and use them they welded selectors on a lot of M14s anyway as I understand. ETA: So the local guard team or your military teams weren’t welded to rebuild for personal use they were welded by policy. They’re at least I think referring to guys buying demilled receiver sections that were rebuilt into rifles. |
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Originally Posted By REAPER2502: I really hate to add to the conjecture, but the guy in WV (or was it VA) got hemmed up for producing machine guns. I believe his name was John Kelley and he was taking demilled M14 receivers and making them functional again. Supposedly, his could not be converted to full auto capability along the lines of an M1A receiver. I can't recall if he was using two sections of demilled receiver or how his process went. I hate that a good guy might possibly get railroaded by an agency that arbitrarily interprets it's own rules. Even when you feel you're playing by the rules, it's hard when the rules are constantly and consistently re-interpreted. Even demilled it seems to hit the “once a machine gun, always a machine gun” interpretation. Which is more “zero tolerance” for stupid reasons bullshit if you ask me. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Not my game - but I was of the understanding a cut reciever is no longer a firearm. Ending its onec-a-machine-gun-always-machine-gun rule (which is just a made up ATF rule btw). And a reweld therefore a brand new constructed firearm. This has been common practice and understanding, and I once saw a reweld semi-auto STG44, this way (which was so bad-ass, though the dude didn't let me shoot it. I saved his brass though - ya never know!) Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Originally Posted By REAPER2502: I really hate to add to the conjecture, but the guy in WV (or was it VA) got hemmed up for producing machine guns. I believe his name was John Kelley and he was taking demilled M14 receivers and making them functional again. Supposedly, his could not be converted to full auto capability along the lines of an M1A receiver. I can't recall if he was using two sections of demilled receiver or how his process went. I hate that a good guy might possibly get railroaded by an agency that arbitrarily interprets it's own rules. Even when you feel you're playing by the rules, it's hard when the rules are constantly and consistently re-interpreted. Not my game - but I was of the understanding a cut reciever is no longer a firearm. Ending its onec-a-machine-gun-always-machine-gun rule (which is just a made up ATF rule btw). And a reweld therefore a brand new constructed firearm. This has been common practice and understanding, and I once saw a reweld semi-auto STG44, this way (which was so bad-ass, though the dude didn't let me shoot it. I saved his brass though - ya never know!) The problem is that the ATF can be wildly inconsistent. About a dozen years ago I submitted a Form 1 for a D.D. on a de-milled 84mm Carl Gustav. It took about 18 months to approve, and I had to speak to the ATF on the phone several times, because they seemed a little unsure of how to handle it. Since it was properly de-milled, it obviously wasn't a firearm/D.D. any longer (and you could buy the demilled ones freely from several legitimate places like Sarco, without any paperwork), and so eventually they approved it. I know other people who have approved Form 1 Carl Gustavs as well. Then a few years ago, I submitted another Form 1 for the exact same thing (I had a second demilled one). I filled out the Form 1 exactly the same as the approved one I already had in hand. Again, they seemed uncertain of how to handle it, and I had to email back and forth with them a bunch of times, and they demanded photos of all of the markings, etc. When I provided them with all the photos they asked for, I also send them a copy of the approved Form 1 for the same item, and explained to them that they had already approved an identical D.D., and explained that I had filled out the current form exactly the same, since they was obviously the correct way to fill it out, since they approve it. Eventually after about a year, they DENIED the Form 1, saying that since I was "re-activating" a D.D., Form 1 was not the correct form.  So does that mean the approved Form 1 - for my existing (and fully functional) Carl Gustav was issued in error? Is it NOT legal after all? Are they going to raid my house for illegal possession of an anti-tank gun some day, with flashbangs and a SWAT team? Who knows? 
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof: The problem is that the ATF can be wildly inconsistent. About a dozen years ago I submitted a Form 1 for a D.D. on a de-milled 84mm Carl Gustav. It took about 18 months to approve, and I had to speak to the ATF on the phone several times, because they seemed a little unsure of how to handle it. Since it was properly de-milled, it obviously wasn't a firearm/D.D. any longer (and you could buy the demilled ones freely from several legitimate places like Sarco, without any paperwork), and so eventually they approved it. I know other people who have approved Form 1 Carl Gustavs as well. Then a few years ago, I submitted another Form 1 for the exact same thing (I had a second demilled one). I filled out the Form 1 exactly the same as the approved one I already had in hand. Again, they seemed uncertain of how to handle it, and I had to email back and forth with them a bunch of times, and they demanded photos of all of the markings, etc. When I provided them with all the photos they asked for, I also send them a copy of the approved Form 1 for the same item, and explained to them that they had already approved an identical D.D., and explained that I had filled out the current form exactly the same, since they was obviously the correct way to fill it out, since they approve it. Eventually after about a year, they DENIED the Form 1, saying that since I was "re-activating" a D.D., Form 1 was not the correct form. So does that mean the approved Form 1 - for my existing (and fully functional) Carl Gustav was issued in error? Is it NOT legal after all? Are they going to raid my house for illegal possession of an anti-tank gun some day, with flashbangs and a SWAT team? Who knows? They make things difficult on purpose or by incompetence. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: His engraving and contouring/shaping is cool, but his welding is amazing. |
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Originally Posted By DoubleARon: They probably damaged or destroyed the machine in the process. It's a tossup on whether it was negligence or intentional. 
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There's this too. Not sure what is going on.
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Originally Posted By BM1455: There's this too. Not sure what is going on.
then ride this out - accept no deals. Leadership has stated these are to be dropped. ATF is rushing a case because they invested however long building their case, and trying to capitalize to recover their effort. Before it goes away. yea, it means flash bang terrorizing some kids, but Dental Plan. Time is on his side. Also, letters to leadership and officials are in order. Use ATF lack of body \-cams as evidence of malfeasance intent. (Again, all this is assuming at face value dude is a good dude being railroaded. Which so far, is what this looks like) |
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Originally Posted By osprey21: He's never welded anything for me, but word on the street is that his skills rival those of John Norrell and John Stemple when it comes to welding aluminum. He's welded something for me at one time to fix an error in communication, which resulted in someone adding etchings to the right side that shouldn't be there. Aside from seeing a few very, very light scratch marks from what could be a scotch brite pad (this is on unfinished aluminum by the way)? Good fucking luck seeing any evidence of a TIG coming anywhere near it. |
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Originally Posted By FreefallRet: Bump for more info I don't know how there will be more public info. I doubt John is going to talk about it. I guess we wait until there is or isn't an indictment, which could be a year or so. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: PACER has the federal court filings. I would think it would be in the Eastern MI district 6th circuit Court. I don't have a Pacer acct yet to check. No telling how long they will take. I hope Brace is doing okay. Hang in there. https://pacer.uscourts.gov/file-case/court-cmecf-lookup I would be pissed if someone took my CNC and way of making money. |
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I read through the thread but don’t understand what service he offered. I *think* he was offering to put Colt or other manufacturer logo engravings on 80% receivers, AKA not firearms. Is that his business? If so, I hope the AFT folks that raided his home… well, let’s just call it a day at COC. |
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Originally Posted By Scott_S: I read through the thread but don’t understand what service he offered. I *think* he was offering to put Colt or other manufacturer logo engravings on 80% receivers, AKA not firearms. Is that his business? If so, I hope the AFT folks that raided his home… well, let’s just call it a day at COC. He didnt mark them, just reprofile or weld on 80% only. In other news I just heard the DOGE website is now accepting ideas from the public on how to save taxpayers money. I can think of a couple. |
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So I was thinking about this a bit more… So the government takes a machine gun and cuts it up thus making it not only not a machine gun but not a gun Somebody takes a piece of something that’s not a gun and grafts it onto something else that’s not a gun and does not change the level of completion of the machining in the process. Let’s even say he puts the marking for the third hole on this still not a gun What law did he break? I mean I know this is all conjecture at this point but that argument doesn’t even make sense. If anything, and I’m NOT saying this is the case, but if somebody then takes the grafted pieces and finish machines them they are the one creating the gun. And if we are arguing that if anything part of a machine gun receiver made back into a gun makes the whole gun a machine gun isn’t it the person doing the machining that created the new magical machine gun? What a bunch of convoluted reasoning. |
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Originally Posted By Banshee35: So I was thinking about this a bit more… So the government takes a machine gun and cuts it up thus making it not only not a machine gun but not a gun Somebody takes a piece of something that’s not a gun and grafts it onto something else that’s not a gun and does not change the level of completion of the machining in the process. Let’s even say he puts the marking for the third hole on this still not a gun What law did he break? I mean I know this is all conjecture at this point but that argument doesn’t even make sense. If anything, and I’m NOT saying this is the case, but if somebody then takes the grafted pieces and finish machines them they are the one creating the gun. And if we are arguing that if anything part of a machine gun receiver made back into a gun makes the whole gun a machine gun isn’t it the person doing the machining that created the new magical machine gun? What a bunch of convoluted reasoning. Thank you! This is on spot. After thinking a lot about it I can only second that. But we do not know what triggered the raid. We all know that they search and seize first, ask questions later. A malicious informer is all that it takes to cause a raid these days. For sure it is strange that they dig-up his yard. So they must have been looking for something there. I hope that it is a good sign that it is not up in the news so far. I am sure it would be if they had scored well, celebrating their success. Although I do not know him, I wish him the best of luck. Even if he will be cleared of any charges it will still have a high price for him. A life or family can easily be ruined by something like this. |
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Originally Posted By Banshee35: So I was thinking about this a bit more… So the government takes a machine gun and cuts it up thus making it not only not a machine gun but not a gun Somebody takes a piece of something that’s not a gun and grafts it onto something else that’s not a gun and does not change the level of completion of the machining in the process. Let’s even say he puts the marking for the third hole on this still not a gun What law did he break? I mean I know this is all conjecture at this point but that argument doesn’t even make sense. If anything, and I’m NOT saying this is the case, but if somebody then takes the grafted pieces and finish machines them they are the one creating the gun. And if we are arguing that if anything part of a machine gun receiver made back into a gun makes the whole gun a machine gun isn’t it the person doing the machining that created the new magical machine gun? Your mistake is using logic and reasoning. The fedbois do not, they are essentially allowed to d9 whatever the hell they want, to whoever thr hell they want. With little fear of reprocussion. Notice that they NEVER wear body cameras? And they can Judge shop |
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Originally Posted By Genin: What about all the M-14's that were used in High power matches that had all the M-14 parts and just had the selector welded into place in the semi-auto position? There were quite a few that were turned into national match rifles and they started life as full auto military M-14's that had the selector welded. Are those rifles now in violation of the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun", or did they get some kind of a waiver? Those were still USG property, just on loan to match shooters via the CMP. IIRC, all those were recalled early in the GWOT for combat use. |
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Originally Posted By FreefallRet: I would be pissed if someone took my CNC and way of making money. His retro AR work was just a hobby on the side. Not his job/income. He never treated it as work/income. It was not a "business". He was selective in who he did work for, and made sure to stay low key. John was the most well known, unknown in the retro world. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I don't know how there will be more public info. I doubt John is going to talk about it. I guess we wait until there is or isn't an indictment, which could be a year or so. I hope he’s diligently following the first two commandments for a situation like this. I. Thou shalt get a lawyer. II. Thou shalt shut the F up. When criminal charges are afoot, nothing good comes from public discussion. Let the lawyer make any comments. I hope this all turns out well for him. Seems like yet another case of ATF arbitrary and capricious prosecution. |
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Originally Posted By Banshee35: So I was thinking about this a bit more… So the government takes a machine gun and cuts it up thus making it not only not a machine gun but not a gun Somebody takes a piece of something that’s not a gun and grafts it onto something else that’s not a gun and does not change the level of completion of the machining in the process. Let’s even say he puts the marking for the third hole on this still not a gun What law did he break? I mean I know this is all conjecture at this point but that argument doesn’t even make sense. If anything, and I’m NOT saying this is the case, but if somebody then takes the grafted pieces and finish machines them they are the one creating the gun. And if we are arguing that if anything part of a machine gun receiver made back into a gun makes the whole gun a machine gun isn’t it the person doing the machining that created the new magical machine gun? What a bunch of convoluted reasoning. It's because they don't want people having machine guns, of course. The algorithm is not supposed to have a reasoned result. |
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Braceman raided by ATF. (Page 3 of 10)
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